How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 Philosophy 101
 Useful Idiots: The End of American Liber
 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Useful Idiots: The End of American Liberalism?

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


0 posted 09-16-2006 02:57 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n18/judt01_.html

quote:
Bush’s Middle Eastern policy now tracks so closely to the Israeli precedent that it is very difficult to see daylight between the two. It is this surreal turn of events that helps explain the confusion and silence of American liberal thinking on the subject (as well, perhaps, as Tony Blair’s syntactically sympathetic me-tooism). Historically, liberals have been unsympathetic to ‘wars of choice’ when undertaken or proposed by their own government. War, in the liberal imagination (and not only the liberal one), is a last resort, not a first option. But the United States now has an Israeli-style foreign policy and America’s liberal intellectuals overwhelmingly support it.


quote:
The contradictions to which this can lead are striking. There is, for example, a blatant discrepancy between Bush’s proclaimed desire to bring democracy to the Muslim world and his refusal to intervene when the only working instances of fragile democracy in action in the whole Muslim world – in Palestine and Lebanon – were systematically ignored and then shattered by America’s Israeli ally. This discrepancy, and the bad faith and hypocrisy which it seems to suggest, have become a staple of editorial pages and internet blogs the world over, to America’s lasting discredit. But America’s leading liberal intellectuals have kept silent. To speak would be to choose between the tactical logic of America’s new ‘war of movement’ against Islamic fascism – democracy as the sweetener for American involvement – and the strategic tradition of Israeli statecraft, for which democratic neighbours are no better and most likely worse than authoritarian ones. This is not a choice that most American liberal commentators are even willing to acknowledge, much less make. And so they say nothing.


quote:
In Five Germanys I Have Known, Fritz Stern – a coauthor of the 1988 New York Times text defending liberalism – writes of his concern about the condition of the liberal spirit in America today.[3] It is with the extinction of that spirit, he notes, that the death of a republic begins. Stern, a historian and a refugee from Nazi Germany, speaks with authority on this matter. And he is surely correct. We don’t expect right-wingers to care very much about the health of a republic, particularly when they are assiduously engaged in the unilateral promotion of empire. And the ideological left, while occasionally adept at analysing the shortcomings of a liberal republic, is typically not much interested in defending it.


When Liberalism in any meaningful sense goes down the toilet, is the country far behind?

iliana
Member Patricius
since 12-05-2003
Posts 13488
USA


1 posted 09-16-2006 04:12 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Is it going down the toilet?  Brad, I think it is circling and waiting for a second flush.  The majority of people are one of two ways here, I think.  Either they are filled with the typical ugly American syndrome or they are filled with fear.  Nope, I have to take it back, there are a few that actually buy into the lies we are fed on a daily basis, and actually they are decent, patriotic people, just trying to get by -- just too easily fooled.  Off subject a little, but as an illustration...the Snowball job(even though I don't really blame Tony Snow...lol) that is being inflicted on the Senate at the moment with modifying the Geneva Convention.  "Clarification," my bippie!  I keep wondering when everyone will wake up.   http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/news_theswamp/2006/09/colin_powell_op.html

It's one thing to see the glass half full as has been quoted on these blue pages before, meaning those who open their mouths are pessimists.  It is an entirely different thing to hear blatant flasities coming out of the White House about their reasons for wanting to rewite our agreement to the Geneva Convention, not to mention the Constitution.  The rhetoric of calling those citizens of this country who care about the direction we are going is to call them....liberal....in such a tone and in such a light that it makes it a bad word, and in effect, shuts up the free thinkers as your article points out.  

Right now....not more than a 100 miles off these US shores, a major Bush bashing is going on.....unfortunately, the whole US, its citizens here and abroad, is the target of that bashing, too.  I am praying for a major change in Congress to occur with upcoming elections.  The few brave souls, including mostly former veterans, like John McCain, Lindsey Graham and Colin Powell, have waited far too long to open their mouths as widely as they needed to be opened.  

But, today, I was proud of those Republicans and the other generals and senators.  I just hope it is not too late because up until today, I thought the answer to your question was yes.  

Oh, and Brad, check out some of the comments at the bottom of that blog....I think there are still a few liberals around.        However, if the government starts imposing restrictions on the internet, that may be a different story.  


[This message has been edited by iliana (09-16-2006 05:11 AM).]

Jason Lyle
Senior Member
since 02-07-2003
Posts 1519
With my darkling


2 posted 09-16-2006 04:33 PM       View Profile for Jason Lyle   Email Jason Lyle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Jason Lyle

Brad, we can only hope, that liberalism goes down the toilet.But you don't have to worry bout it much, our politics follow the same trend.Liberals get in office, and spend 4-8 years making a mess, America gets tired of it, elects a conservative to fix things, they get the blame for liberals messing things up, and start to fix things.Change is slow and hard, people tire of waiting, things slowly get better, but we are impatient.We grow tired of waiting, and forget the liberals made the mess, and elect another liberal or three.They promptly make a mess of things again.we will always spin wheels like this, better off with 8 year terms, reelectable for 8 more.Real change takes time, and idealism is for liberals and teenagers, both whom only fix things from the bottom up.

Jason
iliana
Member Patricius
since 12-05-2003
Posts 13488
USA


3 posted 09-16-2006 05:01 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Jason, the following is the definition of liberalism from Wikipedia:  

"Liberalism is an ideology, philosophical view, and political tradition which holds that liberty is the primary political value."

One of the fundamental premises of liberalism is that laws which restrict personal freedom must be justified.  The authors of our Constitution guaranteed that.  

So, this is what you object to?....are we in trouble, or what!  
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


4 posted 09-16-2006 07:18 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

That's the book definition, iliana. It doesn't mean that's what they do....there's a difference.
iliana
Member Patricius
since 12-05-2003
Posts 13488
USA


5 posted 09-16-2006 08:19 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Well, Mike, Brad's question was:  "When Liberalism in any meaningful sense goes down the toilet, is the country far behind?"  I thought we were speaking of the true meaning of liberalism.  If not, then my bad.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


6 posted 09-16-2006 08:22 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Jason,

Who are you talking about?
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


7 posted 09-16-2006 09:38 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

aha, Iliana, I see what you mean. You went with liberalism and I went with American liberalism...could be my bad instead. When Brad starts talking about toilets and behinds, I get confused easily
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


8 posted 09-16-2006 10:46 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
That's the book definition ...

What other kind of definition is there, Mike?

Can you define a word by the people who ascribe to it? Or do you tell those people, "Hey, dude, you're using the word incorrectly!"

I'll admit, I'm not much up on political labels, especially when most have long since gone the way Orwell's double-speak. I'm still trying to figure out how the opposite of pro-life can be pro-choice? Doesn't liberal mean to be bountiful? But shouldn't that imply that a conservative has to be stingy? It's all so darn confusing. Why can't we just judge our politicians on what they say and do instead of labels that probably long since stopped corresponding to "the book definition?"


Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


9 posted 09-16-2006 11:40 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Exactly, Ron. We SHOULD judge our politicians by what they say and do as opposed to what a book definition says they are.

I agree with the double-speak. The only one I've found to be accurate is that the opposite of progress is congress...
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> Philosophy 101 >> Useful Idiots: The End of American Liber Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors