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Passions in Poetry

I Cor. 15

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JesusChristPose
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0 posted 08-28-2006 11:09 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

~ I'll start with ...

I Cor. 15:35

"But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

~ Right here, if man possesses an immortal soul or dies and goes to "some place," I think Paul would of skipped this question, for obviously, Paul is not going to debate that the dead are in the ground and buried, and in need of a resurrection if they are not dead in the ground, but he chooses to answer the question in the next verse.

I Cor. 15:36

"[Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:"

~ Now, here Paul uses two key words: quickened (which he will use again shortly) and die. Once again, Paul does not use the word "separate" but to die - natural death of man; to not exist. He doesn't answer the question by saying, "You have an immotal soul, you won't die, you don't need to be resurrected."

SIDEBAR: By the way, many denominations have tried to make it look like that "Thanatos" does not mean non-existence = death, but to "separate from God."  We will see later in this chapter that that cannot be possible.

~ Now, Paul will explain again the nature of man, and it is not an immortal soul.

I Cor. 15:42-44

"So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."


~ Paul says it right there. We are sown a natural body. This matches up with scripture from King Solomon, David, etc. The life is in the blood. The human race is made from dust and dust it shall return. The Bible is clear here that we are not made up of anything more than our natural bodies, yet we do have a spirit that separates us from the animals (I Cor. 15:39), but it cannot exist, think, feel, be alive on its own.

I Cor. 15:45-47

"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit." Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.


~ The first man was MADE a living soul. He does not POSSESS a soul, but IS a living soul. Get it? Paul hopes so.  The last Adam, he is referring to is Jesus and there is that phrase, a quickening spirit. That is what it means to be truly "born again." Adam was made a living being, he was a natural being, but will become a spiritual being (born again) like Christ, but when? Paul answers that...

SIDEBAR: Some people state that the Kingdom of God is in our hearts, therefore the Kingdom of God is here and that that Kingdom of God does not have boundaries - is not a real Kingdom, but one that is simply a metaphor, residing in our hearts, but Paul states that that cannot be possible:

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."


~ This verse taken from I Cor. 15:50 is clear. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom ... we have not yet what we haven't inherited! And we are flesh and blood. To believe otherwise is to simply believe in one's own worldview/denomination without the true Spirit.

~ So, when will people become spiritual beings - born again?

I Cor. 15:50

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

~ Christian who are alive will not be asleep, but all other Christians whom have died in hope of being resurrected, are in fact asleep. Now, if Christians or any other dead person is alive with all of their sense after death, why would Paul compare death to sleep? Who walks, talks, listens, learns, praises in his or her sleep? Nobody.

I Cor. 15:51-52

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

~ At the last trump. That is when Christ returns to earth to set up His Kingdom: The 2nd Coming, but not until then will "we be changed."

~ The next verse is an "immotal soul" killer:

Cor. 15:53

"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality."

~ First of all, the phrase "immotal soul" is no where to be found in the Bible. To claim we have an immotal soul is only to do so due to pagan philosophers and a certain man named Dante. This MORTAL must PUT ON immotality. Of course, without any hope or chance to be resurrected we are dead.

I Cor. 15:54

"So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."


~ Once "this mortal" puts on "Immortality" than that mortal becomes born again as a spiritual being and only then does he/she possess eternal life. It is clearly written right here in I Cor. Now to the SIDEBAR, if thanatos means an eternal separation from God, how then can "death" be swallowed up in victory? That doesn't make any sense. Yet, if we believe the truth, that thanatos means for people to no longer have to die, then it makes sense. Think about it... death is swallowed up in victory, meaning no longer will anyone have to die. Those who were truly evil (the overwhelming few) will no longer exist and then death will be conquered. If these people were "alive" somewhere burning forever, how can death be swallowed up in victory? It cannot be. It is still "doing its thing." I could add more evidence to that using Revelations, but will hold it here for now.

... anyway, just thought I'd share my favorite part of the NT with you.



"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."
Essorant
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1 posted 08-31-2006 10:56 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I think you and Arnold should begin a bible-school together.  Call it "The Institution of No Immortal Soul!"

JesusChristPose
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2 posted 08-31-2006 11:31 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

~ Not me an Arnold, but the authors of the Bible. To add or subtract from the quoted passages would only admit to alienate oneself from Biblical teachings. It is either that or the Bible is contradictory unto itself.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."
JesusChristPose
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3 posted 08-31-2006 11:53 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"I think you and Arnold should begin a bible-school together.  Call it "The Institution of No Immortal Soul!"

~ Not only that, it should of have never come to down to myself and Arnold supporting the mortality of the soul if it wasn't for pagan philsophy and its influence in creating a false christianity.


"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."
icebox
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4 posted 08-31-2006 11:57 PM       View Profile for icebox   Email icebox   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for icebox

It is nice that you have personal favorites in works of literature, but it is none the less literature.  The author was real, and centuries of dedicated researchers have produced evidence of the text's chronological authenticity and of the author's identity.  Perhaps the content has helped you feel more secure with your internal senses of existence and maybe the text has helped you to assign value to various aspects of your own life.  It is interesting that you share that here, but how can it be evidence for anything outside of the content of the text itself?  It is not even a philosophical argument; it is simply a series of statements of faith put together in the form of personal letters perhaps written for the purpose of public reading as a recruiting tool for a fledgling religion.

Maybe the content helps you to find meaning or clarity in your own life. That alone could make a book worth reading for you, but the New Testament as a book is simply a compilation of opinions, allegories and stories collected from the works of many authors.  At its best, it is a badly organized docu-drama that at times makes loose references to history.  Again, I would ask, evidence of what?
JesusChristPose
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5 posted 09-01-2006 12:25 AM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

~ Because I am arguing from a Biblical perspective only, your comments and question have no meaning. No disrespect intended, but simply the fact of the matter is that.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."
Arnold M
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6 posted 09-01-2006 03:01 AM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Hi guys; Arnold here. Well, Ess, it seems JCP and myself are at lest two who understand man does not have an "eternal soul".

And I do admit that my conclusion is based upon the Scriptures, which, IMO, are inspired by God, our creator.

JCP, I agree with much of what you say, but not that the resurrection Paul describes is the "new birth".  Those who are asleep in Christ will be raised incorruptible, and we who are alive at His presence will be changed to put on immortality.  Then together we will meet the Lord in the air and be taken to the heavenlies, to experience the spiritual blessings prepared by God; and as Christ's body (for service), we will witness to the principalities and powers (spirit beings)in the celestials the manifold wisdom of God in the ages to come.

From Eph.1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,.."  RSV
It is written in past tense, even though it is future, but I understand that is Hebrew way of thinking.

Next Eph. 2:4-7 "But God who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in Christ Jesus."
God, who knows the future, reckons us to be seated with Christ in the heavenlies. Our hope is in the heavenlies, not on the earth.

Finally, Eph.3:8-10  "To me...grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God...that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places."

Here we read of this particular mystery (or secret)unknown for all the previous ages but now revealed to Paul, that the Church/Body of Christ will have a special function of witnessing to the spirit beings in the vast reaches of the universe, the amazing and wonderful wisdom of God.

All for now, Arnold
icebox
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7 posted 09-01-2006 03:54 AM       View Profile for icebox   Email icebox   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for icebox

"Because I am arguing from a Biblical perspective only,"


So, just for clarification, this is just an exercise in intellectual entertainment using one esoteric belief system?

JesusChristPose
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8 posted 09-01-2006 07:39 AM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"So, just for clarification, this is just an exercise in intellectual entertainment using one esoteric belief system?"

~ You don't have to ask. It is quite obvious, you are telling me.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Essorant
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9 posted 09-01-2006 02:31 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I agree with JCP.
Let a discussion about biblical content be about biblical content.  People questioned and put the bible as a whole on "trial" in so many other threads that you don't need to look far from here and you will find a more relevant discussion to post in if you wish.

Stephanos
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10 posted 09-01-2006 03:02 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

I'm choosing to respond to this repeating thread once more. (sigh)  But before I do, I would like to reiterate the very relevant point that Jim once raised:  If those who believe in an immaterial soul still believe that a bodily resurrection is necessary ... and if those who do not believe in an immaterial soul likewise believe that the most important thing is reconciliation with God ... and if either position may be held by a genuine Christian, then this consideration cannot be the issue which is so sinister as to have brought about a "false Christianity".  In fact, it's perfectly reasonable to think it an ancillary issue.  And I do.  

And I get the feeling that Arnold, would not agree with you making salvation dependent upon believing this doctrine.  What's your take on that Arnold?
  

quote:
I Cor. 15:35

"But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

~ Right here, if man possesses an immortal soul or dies and goes to "some place," I think Paul would of skipped this question, for obviously, Paul is not going to debate that the dead are in the ground and buried, and in need of a resurrection if they are not dead in the ground, but he chooses to answer the question in the next verse.



Not a logical conclusion.  If Paul were speaking of bodily resurrection, then mentioning the transient state of the soul would not be necessary, since it isn't the focus.  Also your conclusion is not quite so "obvious" when you concede my above point that even those who believe in a transient state of the soul, think that resurrection is indispensable.  


quote:
I Cor. 15:36

"[Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:"

~ Now, here Paul uses two key words: quickened (which he will use again shortly) and die. Once again, Paul does not use the word "separate" but to die - natural death of man; to not exist. He doesn't answer the question by saying, "You have an immotal soul, you won't die, you don't need to be resurrected."



He doesn't use the words "cease to exist" either.  Also, again ... even for those who believe in an immaterial soul, ressurrection is supremely necessary.  Much like birth is supremely necessary for a baby in utero.  So it wouldn't make sense for Paul to say "Yo don't have a soul, you won't die, You don't need to be resurrected".  You're only knocking down a straw-man here.

quote:
"So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

~ Paul says it right there. We are sown a natural body. This matches up with scripture from King Solomon, David, etc. The life is in the blood. The human race is made from dust and dust it shall return. The Bible is clear here that we are not made up of anything more than our natural bodies, yet we do have a spirit that separates us from the animals (I Cor. 15:39), but it cannot exist, think, feel, be alive on its own.



How come there are Bible passages where the human spirit seems to be able to "exist, think, feel, be alive on its own"?  Most notably: 1st Samuel 28:8-20, Luke 9:28-31, 2 Corinthians 5:6-8, 2 Corinthians 12:2..      


I think your display of Bible verses is a partial one, that hasn't brought in all the information, for a fuller picture.


quote:
I Cor. 15:45-47

"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit." Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.


~ The first man was MADE a living soul. He does not POSSESS a soul, but IS a living soul. Get it? Paul hopes so.  The last Adam, he is referring to is Jesus and there is that phrase, a quickening spirit. That is what it means to be truly "born again." Adam was made a living being, he was a natural being, but will become a spiritual being (born again) like Christ, but when? Paul answers that...



That use of scripture that man was made a "living soul" does not disprove a composite nature at all.  Paul is here contrasting the merely natural life, with the life of Christ ... contrasting "earthiness" with "spiritual".  He's not even speaking about whether or not man has a transient state, his purposes don't seem to follow along those lines.


And there is a meaning to being "born again" that is certainly prior to resurrection, in THIS life:


"Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart.  For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God." (1 Peter 1:22-23)


Have been.  Past tense.


quote:
I Cor. 15:50

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

~ Christian who are alive will not be asleep, but all other Christians whom have died in hope of being resurrected, are in fact asleep. Now, if Christians or any other dead person is alive with all of their sense after death, why would Paul compare death to sleep? Who walks, talks, listens, learns, praises in his or her sleep? Nobody.



Well if you're going to bend this figure of speech to your purposes, and allow no variance from reality to metaphor, you'll have to at least acknowledge that you've never seen a sleeping person "not exist", and that sleeping people exhibit a form of awareness through dreaming.  Looks like the metaphor fits a transient state of the soul better than your "non-existence" ... because sleep is, after all, a transient state of affairs, and waking (resurrection) is still necessary.


quote:
I Cor. 15:51-52

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

~ At the last trump. That is when Christ returns to earth to set up His Kingdom: The 2nd Coming, but not until then will "we be changed."



Those who believe in a soul, likewise don't believe that we will be resurrected until Christ returns ... so what's your point?

quote:
Cor. 15:53

"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality."

~ First of all, the phrase "immotal soul" is no where to be found in the Bible. To claim we have an immotal soul is only to do so due to pagan philosophers and a certain man named Dante. This MORTAL must PUT ON immotality. Of course, without any hope or chance to be resurrected we are dead.



Neither is the statement that death means "nonexistence" in the Bible.  And it does no good to slur this partiuclar doctrine with what Pagan philosophers believed.  Unless you want to chide Paul for quoting Pagan philosophers many times in the New Testament to illustrate Biblical truth.  Pagan religion also seemed to anticipate "resurrection" in their corn-kings and mystery religions.  Wouldn't it be reasonable to think that God gave intimations of truth even to pagan philosophers?  I think so.  


But there is a significant difference in what I believe the Bible teaches, and the "immortal soul" doctrine.  The Greek idea seems to eternalize the soul.  The Biblical idea makes the life of the soul entirely dependent upon God's sovereign will ... the soul having no self-reliant immortality to speak of.    


And lastly, "Mortality putting on Immortality" speaks of resurrection ... something which those who disagree with you still think very necessary.  Therefore Paul says nothing here in contradiction to belief in a transient state of the soul.


quote:
Think about it... death is swallowed up in victory, meaning no longer will anyone have to die.



I also believe that this means that "no longer will anyone have to die".  But of course it means more than that.  It means there will be a glorious physical resurrection of believers.


quote:
Those who were truly evil (the overwhelming few) will no longer exist and then death will be conquered. If these people were "alive" somewhere burning forever, how can death be swallowed up in victory?



In context Paul's description of death being "swallowed up in victory" does not apply to the wicked.  Though according to Daniel 12:2, even the unsaved will be raised in a kind of body:  "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."


So even if you don't believe in a transient state of the soul ... that doesn't mean that your belief of universalism or annihilationism is sound.  You'll have to defend that quite separately I think.  I presume one could easily believe that there is no immaterial soul, and yet still believe in an eternal place of punishment for the wicked.


"However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.  So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man." Acts 24:14-16


Stephen.
JesusChristPose
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11 posted 09-01-2006 06:43 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"I'm choosing to respond to this repeating thread once more. (sigh)

~ If the repitition makes you sigh, may I suggest that you either don't let the originator of the topic matter know that you are sighing or do not respond so you can refrain from a topic that makes you sigh. Seriously, I could easily read your opening statement and sigh the biggest sigh ever, thinking, here we go again.  

"But before I do, I would like to reiterate the very relevant point that Jim once raised:"

~ Of course, in your opinion it is relevant. Before I go on, I wanted to point that out.

"...those who believe in an immaterial soul still believe that a bodily resurrection is necessary ... and if those who do not believe in an immaterial soul likewise believe that the most important thing is reconciliation with God ... and if either position may be held by a genuine Christian,"

~ One has to define a genuine Christian. Christ once said in vain do they worship me - now, I am sure those who worshiped him in vain believed they were genuine Christians, don't you think?

"...then this consideration cannot be the issue which is so sinister as to have brought about a "false Christianity".  In fact, it's perfectly reasonable to think it an ancillary issue.  And I do."

~ You have never gotten around these Biblical facts:

1. Satan deceives the ENTIRE WORLD.
2. There is a false church.
3. People worship in vain.
4. Christ called his flock small and sacttered.

... With those Biblical facts facing me, I can't see how mainstream christianity can be the true flock.

~ This issue is the crux of whom Jesus was talking about - the false christians of the false church believing in his name as Satan appears as a minister of righteousness deceiving them all.  

"And I get the feeling that Arnold, would not agree with you making salvation dependent upon believing this doctrine.  What's your take on that Arnold?"

~ You make it seem like I would want Arnold in my corner on this matter.

[more later]


"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."
Arnold M
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12 posted 09-01-2006 09:35 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Hi guys. Seems like I need to get back in to this debate (And I was, anyway).

Stephano's question:
And I get the feeling that Arnold, would not agree with you making salvation dependent upon believing this doctrine.  What's your take on that Arnold?

I agree, our salvation is based upon accepting Christ as our personal savior, and is not limited as to whether someone does or does not believe our soul is immortal.

As a matter of fact, as a young Christian I would sing "Thank you Lord for saving my soul.." and never thought anything about it, for I considered "my soul" as me.  And now undrstand it is the whole man who is saved.

I will say this, that as one seeking the truth revealed in the Scriptures, I don't feel these verses in 1 Cor. 15 are relevant as to the nature of the soul.

My understanding came about by studying the great part of the scriptures where soul (Nephesh-Heb./Psuche-Gk) is used, and there are hundreds.  And also by studying other scriptures which seem to allude to "life during death".

It is my belief that the way the word is used in the OT, regardless of the writer, it does not contradict what is said in the NT.

I suppose I've stated this on some other thread, but it is worth repeating.

"Soul" could be said to be the consciousness, the feelings, the desires, produced by the breath of life vitalizing the body.

Many times man is called a "soul" in the scriptures: i.e., Acts 2:41 "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added...about three thousand souls."

Many times the soul is said to die, be dead or be destroyed:
Num. 23:10 "Let me (my soul) die the death of the righteous."
Josh. 10:28,30,32,35,37,39; Jer.2:34, etc.

Quoting JCP:
1. Satan deceives the ENTIRE WORLD.
2. There is a false church.
3. People worship in vain.
4. Christ called his flock small and sacttered.

My comments:
1. Satan is not deceiving the whole world. Our apostle, Paul, tells us in 2 Cor.4:3,4
"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing.  In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ..."
God is sovereign.  Satan can only do what God allows.  Christians in the body of Christ are there because, IMO, they are chosen and predestined to believe the gospel, and Satan has not blinded them.

2. There are many "churches", religious groups, who are not Christians.  

3. You say "people worship in vain". If you mean there are Christian churches which have departed from the power and truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, I would agree.

4. IMO, you are using the analogy Jesus used
during his earthly ministry to his own, Israel, concerning the small number who believed in Him.  Paul is our teacher. He never refers to the Church/Body of Christ as "sheep" or "a flock". We are "saints",
"set apart ones" for obedience to the gospel.

Arnold
Stephanos
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13 posted 09-02-2006 08:45 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

JCP:
quote:
Me: if either position may be held by a genuine Christian, then this consideration cannot be the issue which is so sinister as to have brought about a "false Christianity".  In fact, it's perfectly reasonable to think it an ancillary issue.  And I do.

JCP: One has to define a genuine Christian. Christ once said in vain do they worship me - now, I am sure those who worshiped him in vain believed they were genuine Christians, don't you think?



Okay.  Let's say I grant you, that is true.  Can you demonstrate from the bible that no true Christian can believe in an immaterial soul?  The Bible "defines" what a Christian is, and it has nothing to do with disbelieving or believing in an immaterial soul.  If you are the one making distinctions between false and true believers based upon this one doctrine ... then I think it is your responsibility to demonstrate from the scriptures that believing such is necessary to be a true Christian.


quote:
~ You have never gotten around these Biblical facts:

1. Satan deceives the ENTIRE WORLD.
2. There is a false church.
3. People worship in vain.
4. Christ called his flock small and sacttered.

... With those Biblical facts facing me, I can't see how mainstream christianity can be the true flock.



I'm not trying to "get around" those facts.  I actually accept those general statements as true.  


But how about these facts ?...


1) The Bible describes people who believed the right doctrines, and were still not right with God.


2) The Bible describes people who believed in wrong doctrines, and were nonetheless right with God.


3) The Bible makes absolutely no connection between being right with God, and believing or disbelieving in a transient state of the soul.



So, instead of making this a soteriological issue, and an occasion to accuse someone of false faith, why don't we continue to discuss the reasonableness of the doctrine in light of scripture?



Stephen.    
JesusChristPose
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14 posted 09-02-2006 09:08 AM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

My comments:
1. Satan is not deceiving the whole world. Our apostle, Paul, tells us in 2 Cor.4:3,4
"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing.  In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ..."


~ Does the Bible contradict itself? Rev. 12:9 clearly states that Satan deceives the ENTIRE WORLD. And, the quote above from 2 Cor. deals with the Biblical teaching that God IS NOT trying to save the world now. The masses who are not being called at this time are indeed blinded because they are not being called.



"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."
JesusChristPose
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15 posted 09-02-2006 09:28 AM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I Cor. 15:35

"But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

~ Right here, if man possesses an immortal soul or dies and goes to "some place," I think Paul would of skipped this question, for obviously, Paul is not going to debate that the dead are in the ground and buried, and in need of a resurrection if they are not dead in the ground, but he chooses to answer the question in the next verse.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Not a logical conclusion.  If Paul were speaking of bodily resurrection, then mentioning the transient state of the soul would not be necessary, since it isn't the focus."

~ Through your own worldview - what you have been taught to believe. It is a logical conclusion when one reads it with a complete open mind, like the mind of a child whom has no outside influences from any other source. Therefore, I cannot, nor should I concede the point.

~ Why the need of a bodily resurrection if the soul lives on after death? For what purpose would God put our souls back into our earthy, mortal, bodies? No where in the Bible does it state why God would do that or that he WILL do that. In fact, the Bible teaches otherwise, that from dust we are and from dust we shall return and that the life is in the blood - not in an immortal soul. To believe otherwise is only to believe through philosophies and doctrines of men.


"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."
JesusChristPose
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16 posted 09-02-2006 02:00 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"Okay.  Let's say I grant you, that is true.  Can you demonstrate from the bible that no true Christian can believe in an immaterial soul?  The Bible "defines" what a Christian is, and it has nothing to do with disbelieving or believing in an immaterial soul.  If you are the one making distinctions between false and true believers based upon this one doctrine ... then I think it is your responsibility to demonstrate from the scriptures that believing such is necessary to be a true Christian."

~ Do you actually believe that whatever scripture I quote in attempt to show you what I believe the Bible to teach will ever be accepted by you, Stephanos? Of course not.

~ Yet, what I believe the Bible teaches includes not excludes the overwhelming majority of the human race, all whom have lived and died and those living today, into the Kingdom of God, but that would put the christian churches "out of business," and it would be quite difficult, like the man who was told to give up his riches, for a preacher/pastor/priest to come to grips with that type of teaching/belief.



"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."
Stephanos
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17 posted 09-02-2006 05:54 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

JCP:
quote:
what I believe the Bible teaches includes not excludes the overwhelming majority of the human race, all whom have lived and died and those living today, into the Kingdom of God,

I asked you to prove Biblically, that believing such a doctrine is related in anyway to salvation.  You seem to imply that those who don't believe as you do on this particular issue, do not have genuine faith.


You are also conflating about 4 different beliefs as I see it:


1) No immaterial Soul (or no soul that can exist apart from the body)


2) Annihilationism (annihilation rather than eternal punishment)


3) Universalism (All, or the majority of mankind will be saved)


4) You must believe all of the above, to be a genuine Christian.  If not, you are a part of the "false Church".


My problem with this recurring discussion is that you speak as if these doctrines are all necessarily tied, and related  They're not.  You can't support one, using reasons for another.  It's possible for someone to disbelieve in an immaterial soul, and still believe in eternal punishment.  Conversely it's possible for someone to disbelieve in eternal punishment, and still believe in a soul.  


My point is that you need to defend whatever you are saying biblically, one doctrine at a time.  Unless of course, this is another "proclamation" rather than "discussion" thread.  


quote:
o you actually believe that whatever scripture I quote in attempt to show you what I believe the Bible to teach will ever be accepted by you, Stephanos? Of course not.


Doesn't a discussion demand the suspension of such doubts on your part about anyone's swayability? Are you playing the part of a debater or a trumpeter?


If the devil has decieved the whole world, who exactly are you trying to convince?  Or are you saying from the start, that since he's deceived the whole world (except you) there's no use in trying to convince?  But if that's the case what would the role of others be in this thread exactly?  Just asking.


Stephen.  
JesusChristPose
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18 posted 09-02-2006 06:25 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

~ Wow, we are jumping all over the place here, making it most difficult to follow one single issue. I wonder if it is a coincidence that that is what mainstream christian teachers/leaders do too.

"Doesn't a discussion demand the suspension of such doubts on your part about anyone's swayability? Are you playing the part of a debater or a trumpeter?"

~ You talk about "straw man" and then limit what I am doing to two options... tsk, tsk. To answer your first question, no, not anyone's swayability.  To answer your second question, neither.

"If the devil has decieved the whole world, who exactly are you trying to convince?"

~ Come on, Stephanos. Go over (again) the four points I made, that will give you the answer to your question.

"Or are you saying from the start, that since he's deceived the whole world (except you) there's no use in trying to convince?"

~ Are you putting words into my mouth? Who said just me, I never did. There is no use trying to convince those whom God is not calling at this time, yes.

"But if that's the case what would the role of others be in this thread exactly?  Just asking."

~ If another is truly being called, then that person will understand due to the fact that the true Spirit of God is calling them.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Essorant
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19 posted 09-02-2006 08:19 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

(It is no wonder at all why many people have such negative opinions about religion these days)
Stephanos
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20 posted 09-02-2006 11:38 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Essorant,

Debate is what philosophy forums are for.  But that's not all religion is about.  People have always debated religion as well as philosophy with very strong feelings because such beliefs are considered to be the most imporatant ones.


But we've had some very civil discussions about religion here many times.  I think in your estimation of "religion" or any other subject, you should consider individual temperments and personalities as well as subject matter.  If things are civil, then WE must make it civil.  

I've only been trying to question the validity of replying with "you're not called", as an answer, when explanations are sought.  Maybe in a crusade, but in a philosophy forum?


Stephen.    
JesusChristPose
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21 posted 09-03-2006 12:27 AM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"(It is no wonder at all why many people have such negative opinions about religion these days)"

~ Not just these days, but days of the past too.

~ I find it somewhat amusing, and totally ironic, that the majority of the "learned" of the christian faith can within themselves, believe that ALL OTHER people of OTHER faiths are doomed for an eternal hellfire, yet cannot understand or "take it" when challenged within their own faith about eternity and who is "of the devil."

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Brad
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22 posted 09-03-2006 12:42 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
If things are civil, then WE must make it civil.


'nuff said.  
JesusChristPose
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23 posted 09-03-2006 12:43 AM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I Cor. 15:36

"[Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:"

~ Now, here Paul uses two key words: quickened (which he will use again shortly) and die. Once again, Paul does not use the word "separate" but to die - natural death of man; to not exist. He doesn't answer the question by saying, "You have an immotal soul, you won't die, you don't need to be resurrected."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"He doesn't use the words "cease to exist" either."

~ Why should he? He knew what he meant by using the word, "die." Dying has nothing to do with living in some form after death, but to a natural death - meaning not to live, the opposite of life. Only through philosphy of pagans could one come to believe that to die means not to, but to "separate." Why didn't he use the Greek word for separate instead, if that is what was meant?


"Also, again ... even for those who believe in an immaterial soul, ressurrection is supremely necessary.  Much like birth is supremely necessary for a baby in utero.  So it wouldn't make sense for Paul to say "Yo don't have a soul, you won't die, You don't need to be resurrected".  You're only knocking down a straw-man here."

~ You built the staw-man, not me, nor Paul. Once again, traditional mainstream christian teachings add philosophies and doctrines of men to the meaning of the original intent of God's word.

~ No doubt, if the Bible taught that we possess an immortal soul, it would be most certain that that phrase would be in the Bible, but it is not. In fact, the DIRECT OPPOSITE is found in the Bible, that we are MORTAL. False teachings through pagan philosphers add the belief that we humans possess immortal souls. Paul states here in Corinthians (setting them straight, no doubt, because they were taught pagan Plato-type beliefs in an immotal soul) that the only hope for an eternal life is through a resurrection.

~ I was taught by Baptists, Pentacostals, Catholics, etc., about God putting our already ALIVE beings back into a body and being resurrected and for the life of me, could only say, What? That doesn't make any sense whatsover. Like this... a man dies who is not a Christian, off he goes into hell to suffer, only to be brought back into his original body to be judged (again?) and then thrown into hell again? LOL. Too funny. Ridiculous, even. Why resurrect him to suffer his fate that he is already suffering? LOL. Sorry, but it has no logic at all.


"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."
JesusChristPose
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24 posted 09-03-2006 12:48 AM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Brad,

"'nuff said."

~ I am not sure what you meant by that reply, but I'll tell you this. I would rather have someone be honest with me about what he or she believes regarding a matter such as the eternal state of myself, among others, than to be two-faced, and smile in my face speaking niceties (is that a word? ) while behind my back saying, "That person is wrong and will perish forever in a hellfire."  

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

 
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