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Passions in Poetry

I Cor. 15

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Stephanos
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since 07-31-2000
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Statesboro, GA, USA


50 posted 09-13-2006 02:00 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
Me: "now you've got the even thornier theological problem of believing that an evil spirit prophesied the exact truth of what would happen to Saul, at the hand of God's judgement.  Care to explain that one?"

JCP: Too easy. A demon spirit can tell the truth, and in this case God obviously wasn't going to answer Saul and the outcome was easily predicted. Satan is the Lord of this World. He does have some power to know what is going on.



The outcome may have been easily predicted in a very general sense of things.  But you have to contend with the fact that this "spirit" predicted the future with a degree of accuracy only befitting prophets.  The philistine victory, and the very day it would happen.  The death of Saul and his sons, and the very day it would happen.  If an evil spirit has that degree of prophetic insight, then you'll have to admit it is the only place in scripture which illustrates it in such precision.  


Conversely, it's certainly not the only place in scripture where prophets in general, and Samuel in particular have been described as demonstrating such prophetic accuracy.  In Samuel's childhood we read this: "And Samuel grew, and the LORD was with him, and did let none of his words fall to the ground.".  


It's still quacking an awfully lot like a duck.  


quote:
Clearly Satan and his evil spirits can tell the truth, as they were correct. Jesus is the Son of God.


But there may be a difference in "telling the truth" and in detailed prediction of the future.  The former is attributed to many in scripture, the latter only to certain "prophetic" types.  I'm not saying you can't believe that about demons or Satan.  But what I am saying is that I don't think you have a strong case for it from scripture.  


quote:
Says you and mainstream christianity. It is easy for one to make an interpretation work, if they say, when reading this passage it is only a musing, but while reading this passage it is not. Maybe, it is God's way of separating those who understand what is the true Lamb and what is Azazel.



Maybe, but maybe not.  If something is true it's going to be supportable by textual explanation ... including consideration of what "type" of literature we are dealing with when examining a particular passage of scripture.  For example, you haven't explained to me how, if you take scripture always as doctrinal establishment, we have such contradictory passages in the "poetry" sections of scripture.  


That's why, if I had more doctrinal confidence in the "writings" (or the fairly distinct dialogical and poetic parts of scripture), I would quote such passages as:


"The dead are in deep anguish, those beneath the waters and all that live in them." (Job 26:5)


I don't know how you deal with the fact that the non-existent dead here are "in anguish", understanding statements in Job as fiats of dogma the way you do.  But I personally couldn't even convince myself of my own position using such poetic passages.  Why?  Because of the type of literature and the playful paradoxical statements that are all through such works.

quote:
Me:But I think your main problem is trying to makes Solomon's (and Job's) poetic musings into technical descriptions.

JCPYeah, right. When mainstream christianity doesn't have an answer, it can easily say that Job and Solomon's words are merely poetic musings.



But I have explained it, and demonstrated it with the text itself.  You can also read for yourself how the Jewish Rabbis approached such scriptures, and see that it had little to do with rigid theology.  (though I don't deny that there's a rightful place for that in scripture too).  


And to clarify:  I never said that Job or Ecclesiastes was "merely" poetry.  That makes it sound like I think that it has no meaning, or value whatsoever.  Hey, I'm a poet.  You ought to know better than that.       I just don't think that you can pass Job off as an ancient "Westminster Confession of Faith", or something like that.


Lastly, you're right.  We're only repeating ourselves again, for the most part.  Wanna give it a break?  Brad did say "nuff said".    


Stephen.


JesusChristPose
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since 06-21-2005
Posts 679
Pittsburgh, Pa


51 posted 09-13-2006 10:37 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"That which is mortal must put on immortality."

"Not everyone shall sleep ..."

~ Those passages are from the NT. To say that sleeping people are able to praise God, as David said in the OT, that the dead do not praise God, and to say that we are immortal - that are souls are alive  and alert after death, goes directly against these passages.

~ The immortal soul doctrine is one of pagan philosophical origins. The Bible clearly states that a carnal mind is an enemy to God and that in vain do people worship Christ believing in doctrines and philosophies of men.

~ To suggest that bible contradicts itself, only makes the bible and christianity bogus as all other religions.

~ To suggest that a loving God would allow Satan to deceive the world and then sentence those people to eternal torture is only a belief that can be derived from Satan himself.

~ You replied to many passages that can be interpreted differently, but you still have not answered why the need of a resurrection of a body, if person is already suffering in hell or being awarded in heaven. I have heard all of the mainstream answers and none of them make any logical sense. To say that a person's immortal soul goes immediately to another place upon death takes away the need of a resurrection.

~ Not only that, explain how in Acts, Peter stated that David did not ascend into the heavens. If saved people die and go to heaven upon death, David would certainly be there.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Stephanos
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52 posted 09-14-2006 07:40 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

JCP:
quote:
"That which is mortal must put on immortality."

"Not everyone shall sleep ..."

~ Those passages are from the NT. To say that sleeping people are able to praise God, as David said in the OT, that the dead do not praise God, and to say that we are immortal - that are souls are alive  and alert after death, goes directly against these passages.



Still insisting on the exact precision of metaphors?  Then why claim that a "sleeping person" refers to non-being?


quote:
The immortal soul doctrine is one of pagan philosophical origins.


My case has been that the Hebrew tradition, quite seperately, contained the idea of a "spirit" or "soul" beyond death.  As I explained before, there are subtle differences in this view and the Platonic view of an "immortal soul".  For the Jew would never dream that one's human spirit would have innate properties of "immortality".

quote:
The Bible clearly states that a carnal mind is an enemy to God and that in vain do people worship Christ believing in doctrines and philosophies of men.

To suggest that bible contradicts itself, only makes the bible and christianity bogus as all other religions.



I'm not suggesting that the Bible contradicts itself.  I'm only suggesting that it's teaching about what is Carnal is not so simplistic as you make it out to be ... ie, Pagan versus Jewish.  So even if something were "Pagan" in thought, doesn't mean automatically that it was unspiritual.  


But either way, I'll alse continue to insist that the Old Testament's nascent revelations of Life beyond death, developed quite independently of Greek thought.


quote:
To suggest that a loving God would allow Satan to deceive the world and then sentence those people to eternal torture is only a belief that can be derived from Satan himself.


To continue to suggest that the doctrine of eternal punishment is in any way dependent upon believing in an "immortal soul" is beyond me.  

quote:
You replied to many passages that can be interpreted differently, but you still have not answered why the need of a resurrection of a body, if person is already suffering in hell or being awarded in heaven. I have heard all of the mainstream answers and none of them make any logical sense. To say that a person's immortal soul goes immediately to another place upon death takes away the need of a resurrection.



That's still just like asking, "What need of a birth is there, when there's already been a conception?"  

You keep confusing "logic" with narrative description.  It's not logical or illogical that the ocean is wet, and the desert is dry.  It's not logical or illogical that we should be given 5 senses instead of 8.  it just happens to be the nature of things.  Is it "logical" that a ressurrection should occur and reverse death, undoing what was already done?  My point is, when the Bible speaks in a descriptive mode, your imposition of "logic" is out of place ... especially seeing that we are not given a lot of techincal information about the post-mortem state, but only a few provocative "pictures".  
  

quote:
Not only that, explain how in Acts, Peter stated that David did not ascend into the heavens. If saved people die and go to heaven upon death, David would certainly be there.


Have you forgotten about the Jewish belief in "Sheol", which was most often depicted as being in the heart of the Earth, rather than in "Heaven"?


Stephen.
Kitherion
Member
since 08-01-2006
Posts 179
Johannesburg


53 posted 02-02-2007 07:30 AM       View Profile for Kitherion   Email Kitherion   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kitherion

This s it:

Eccelsiaties states :

"For the dead are conscience of nothing..."

That should kinda tell you the answer to the immortal soul question. Who in thier right mind would believe such a non scriptual thing? The influence of paganism was and is still an important factor, but surely by using the bible you should be able to understand a basic concept?

Oh, and Stephanos:

Revelation clearly states that God will ressurect all to an erthly paradise... and only 144 000 to life in heaven (Revelation 14, and compare Isiah). Why else would God be, "making a new heavens and new earth"? Not only that, but the physical ressurection does not happen when the human soul leaves heaven and returns to earth. Once the human dies, we are rememebered in Gods memory and then are "recreated" so to speak by him after the day "of Jehovah's righteous anger." So it is obvious that the bible teaches that the soul is ot immortal, and that once we die, we are remembered "in the book of life" so that God Jehovah may ressurect us physically after Armaggeddon.
Angel4aKing
Senior Member
since 09-27-2006
Posts 1376
USA


54 posted 02-04-2007 05:14 AM       View Profile for Angel4aKing   Email Angel4aKing   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Angel4aKing

So I htink if I get this right there are only so many souls...correct? and when we go the soul needs a new body? but the spirit grows and moves? We are created again each time new in spirit? Hmmmm.

~~~kingsangel~~~

 
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