How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 Philosophy 101
 I Cor. 15   [ Page: 1  2  3  ]
 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

I Cor. 15

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 06-21-2005
Posts 679
Pittsburgh, Pa


25 posted 09-04-2006 10:21 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"How come there are Bible passages where the human spirit seems to be able to "exist, think, feel, be alive on its own"?  Most notably: 1st Samuel 28:8-20, Luke 9:28-31, 2 Corinthians 5:6-8, 2 Corinthians 12:2.."

1st Samuel 28:8;20:

~ I argued this one with Jim in the past. It is an abomination to God to use a medium for anything. Of course, that was not Samuel, but an evil spirit pretending to be Samuel. There is more to it, but look up the thread of the past, I am not going over it all again.

Luke 9:28-31

~ The transfiguration was simply a viewing of an event to come at a later time.

2 Cor. 5:6-8

~ Paul merely states that while in a mortal body, one cannot be "with" the Lord. It won't be until one is born again at the 2nd coming - born into a spiritual body that one can be with the Lord.

... and the last 2 Cor. is merely a vision that God gave Paul, not something that happened already. If you don't believe that, read in Acts where Peter states that DAVID DID NOT ASCEND into the HEAVENS. Now if David didn't, I am sure no other in the Spirit of God did. And, Christ stated that NO MAN has ascended into heaven except for Himself. Clear cut evidence over these verses that can interpreted differently.

~ Take the direct evidence first, then one can interpret other evidence (secondary) to support one's claim.

"I think your display of Bible verses is a partial one, that hasn't brought in all the information, for a fuller picture."

~ There is not one Biblical verse that I haven't studied in order to prove or disprove what I am stating to be the truth.



"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."
JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 06-21-2005
Posts 679
Pittsburgh, Pa


26 posted 09-04-2006 10:42 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

~ Now, where one can argue passages that could be interpreted differently, there are passages that are CLEAR-CUT. Where the author of the passage states something that is "black and white" and the only way to say otherwise would be due to a carnal mind, one that is not of the Spirit of God, but of a carnal mind, which is an enemy to the Spiritual mind of those truly called by God.

~ I am sure, if those in Christ who died, or those who died in the OT that were called by God, could praise God, they would, but David states otherwise:

Psalms 115:17

"The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence."


~ The only way to argue against this is to use some sort of postmodernist black isn't white or a Clintonesque, alone is not to actually be alone.

~ The DEAD PRAISE NOT the Lord. People who are dead cannot praise the Lord. Why? Because they are dead. LOL!

~ That passage is DIRECT evidence compared to 1Sam, Luke, etc., that was given to me to show how I am in error.  


"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

[This message has been edited by JesusChristPose (09-04-2006 11:16 PM).]

JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 06-21-2005
Posts 679
Pittsburgh, Pa


27 posted 09-04-2006 11:46 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

~ The Biblical verse:

"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit." Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven."

My comment:

~ The first man was MADE a living soul. He does not POSSESS a soul, but IS a living soul. Get it? Paul hopes so.  The last Adam, he is referring to is Jesus and there is that phrase, a quickening spirit. That is what it means to be truly "born again." Adam was made a living being, he was a natural being, but will become a spiritual being (born again) like Christ, but when? Paul answers that..."

~ Stephanos' comment:

"That use of scripture that man was made a "living soul" does not disprove a composite nature at all.  Paul is here contrasting the merely natural life, with the life of Christ ..."

~ So, you talked with Paul to confirm that opinion? Of course not. That is what I am talking about adding carnal knowledge to the scriptures. Man was MADE A LIVING SOUL. Without any carnal knowledge implied, these words state that WE ARE as soul, not that WE HAVE a soul. Otherwise, Paul would of not said what he said. In fact, (and if you want me to look it up for you, I will), in Genesis, animials are souls and DEAD SOULS at that.

"... contrasting "earthiness" with "spiritual".  He's not even speaking about whether or not man has a transient state, his purposes don't seem to follow along those lines."

~ You inject a "transient state" into these passages. Don't you understand that? Take that away, and it doesn't even "follow suit." Read these passages with an open and Spiritual mind, and you will see the errors of your interpetation. Paul does not speak of a "transient soul" because to him, there is no such thing as one.


"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


28 posted 09-05-2006 02:30 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

JCP:
quote:
1st Samuel 28:8;20:

~ I argued this one with Jim in the past. It is an abomination to God to use a medium for anything. Of course, that was not Samuel, but an evil spirit pretending to be Samuel. There is more to it, but look up the thread of the past, I am not going over it all again.



Does the Bible say it's not Samuel?  Or does the author narrate as if it is Samuel? Let's see ... I'm going to underline where I think the text tells us that it's Samuel.


" ... Then the woman asked, 'Whom shall I bring up for you?'


'Bring up Samuel,' he said.


When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, 'Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!'


The king said to her, 'Don't be afraid. What do you see?'


The woman said, 'I see a spirit coming up out of the ground.'


'What does he look like?' he asked.


'An old man wearing a robe is coming up,' she said.  


Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.


Samuel said to Saul, 'Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?'


'I am in great distress,' Saul said. 'The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.'


Samuel said, 'Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines.'


Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel's words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and night.


(1st Samuel 28:11-20)



So, it at least looks certain that the author would have disagreed with you about "Samuel" being a demon.


Also this "evil spirit" spoke prophetically the word of the Lord.  hmmmm ... prophet ... same vocation as Samuel.  If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...


quote:
The transfiguration was simply a viewing of an event to come at a later time.


Let's see, how "time" comes into play in the passage itself ...


"About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray. As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem." (Luke 9:28-31)


So, this was an event in the future, and yet they talked about what was going to happen at the cross in Jerusalem?


I'm not pretending to understand the mysteries of such an incident, but one thing I know is that it isn't "simply" a viewing of a future event.

  
quote:
So, you talked with Paul to confirm that opinion? Of course not. That is what I am talking about adding carnal knowledge to the scriptures. Man was MADE A LIVING SOUL. Without any carnal knowledge implied, these words state that WE ARE as soul, not that WE HAVE a soul. Otherwise, Paul would of not said what he said.


There's little doubt that the word "soul" has been used to describe the whole man, but also to describe the "spirit" and the "mind" of man.  That's not carnal knowledge.  That's observation.  You oversimplify Paul, and take singular verses isolated from his other statements.  such as in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 where he wrote "... and the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."


If man is not a composite being, then why would Paul describe him in composite terms?  


quote:
You inject a "transient state" into these passages. Don't you understand that? Take that away, and it doesn't even "follow suit." Read these passages with an open and Spiritual mind, and you will see the errors of your interpetation. Paul does not speak of a "transient soul" because to him, there is no such thing as one.


You also "inject" your own terms and phrases such as "does not exist", and "non-existent".  But you won't hear me faulting you for that.  You are merely describing your view.  So I ask you not to fault me with using the phrase "transient soul", especially since that's exactly what you are refuting.


It's just not a valid argument to say "that exact phrase isn't in the Bible".  There are many phrases in theology (including yours) that aren't in the Bible.  I'll avoid such quick attempts at a "score" if you will.  I think at this point, it's really a matter of examining scripture in a broader way, and seeing what light the whole seems to cast on this subject.  


I'll reply later to your use of the Psalms.  They are poetic, not doctrinal treatises.  However they do refect the theology of their time ... which was focused on an Earthly life that glorified God.  "Sheol" for the Jew was a shadowy world of mystery, about which he didn't know much.  So it's understandable that such passages were in Psalter.  But there are other passages in the Old Testaments (of which 1 Samuel 28 is only one example) where Sheol is presented as anything but a state of "non-existence"

quote:
... I'll tell you this. I would rather have someone be honest with me about what he or she believes regarding a matter such as the eternal state of myself, among others, than to be two-faced, and smile in my face speaking niceties while behind my back saying, "That person is wrong and will perish forever in a hellfire."


Didn't we already have another thread dealing with that thought?  I'm not here to debate that really, because I thought this thread was about the soul.  Eternal Punishment is a seperate issue entirely, as a person who doesn't believe in an "immortal soul" can still believe in an eternal place of punishment ... (see Acts 24:14-16)


"However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.  So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man."


Stephen.

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (09-05-2006 03:46 AM).]

JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 06-21-2005
Posts 679
Pittsburgh, Pa


29 posted 09-05-2006 06:50 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

~ I am not going to go through this entire argument again about Samuel, Gods and soothsayers.

~ There are only two likely possibilities: One, the Bible is fallible ficitious book or two that was not the real Samuel.

~ Why?

~ Because these are God's words:

DEUT. 18:10-12

"There shall not be found among you [any one] that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, [or] that useth divination, [or] an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer."

~ Why?

"For all that do these things [are] an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee."

~ God would allow a soothsayer to conjure up the prophet Samuel from the dead when that sort of thing is an ABOMINATION to Him? There is no way, that that could be possible, unless God is a liar or can't control Satan.

~ Not only that, God explicity states that he WILL NOT ANSWER by prophet.

1SAM 28:6

"And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets."

~ Samuel most certainly was a prophet and the Lord would not answer by prophet. Now, if that was truly Samuel, God is either a liar or He can't control the soothsaying woman. LOL!

~ Damn women, even God can't control'em.


"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


30 posted 09-06-2006 12:01 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

JCP:
quote:
There are only two likely possibilities: One, the Bible is fallible ficitious book or two that was not the real Samuel.

Actually there's a third possibility, which I'll explain in a moment, that makes the most sense out of the text at hand, and the whole Bible.  No need to call this a ventriloquist act that deceives not only the witch and Saul, but the writer himself.  Also no need to doubt the integrity of the scriptures.


quote:
God would allow a soothsayer to conjure up the prophet Samuel from the dead when that sort of thing is an ABOMINATION to Him? There is no way, that that could be possible, unless God is a liar or can't control Satan.


Since when does God not "allow" acts which are an abomination to him?  You're forgetting that Saul was rebuked by Samuel, rather than praised for his rendezvous with the witch.


The fact that necromancy was forbidden in scripture doesn't tie God's hands in any way.  How does having forbidden this practice, limit God's ability or prerogative to speak within the circumstances of Saul's disobedience, a word of judgement?


And how would that make God a Liar?  The word to Saul was very much in line with such a practice being an abomination, seeing that God was wroth with him.  Samuel's words were severe to Saul.  


Lastly, that seems to me to be the opposite of "not being able to control Satan".  The fact that God could speak even in the context of a King's disobedience, and in the context of a forbidden practice of necromancy, tells me that God is Lord over all of it.  


You must remember that such an unexpected event (and jurisdiction) is not foreign to scripture.  God spoke amazing truth through another soothsayer named Balaam as well.  Who made man's mouth?  


quote:
"And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets."


Is that a simple statement of fact, or an absolute?  If you'll notice, that was before Saul's tryst with the witch.  You're mistaking simple narration, for statements of absolute law.  But in the flow of time, it all makes sense.  God had been giving Saul the silent treatment in the past, only to finally settle the score with him at the end.  Our approach with people changes with their circumstances, why would God be more limited than we are, in this regard?

quote:
Damn women, even God can't control'em.


You're own your own now buddy.  I can neither condone nor participate in such a conversation, for my own health's sake.  

  
Stephen.        
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


31 posted 09-06-2006 06:53 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

There is a better question right in front of you Jesus.  Look harder for the real inconsistency.
JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 06-21-2005
Posts 679
Pittsburgh, Pa


32 posted 09-06-2006 07:01 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

~ I really do believe things are simpler than what others would want us to believe.

Ecc. 9:5

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing ..."

~ That agrees with Psalms and the dead not being able to praise God. How can one say that the Bible doesn't mean what it says at the face value unless one attempts to twist the passages to suit his/her denomination?

The dead know nothing. The dead do not praise God. From dust thou art and from dust thou shall return.The soul that sins is the soul that dies.

~ If a child happened upon these verses, without any influence from other sources, that child would know that one doesn't live after death in some sort of "separation." Again, if death meant to merely separate, than why wasn't this word used?

parad

~ Surely, if the author who quoted the soul that sinneth is the soul that will die meant to SEPARATE, he would of said PARAD! He didn't. I think he knows the difference.

~ Now onto Samuel the prophet and Saul. Why would God give up Samuel's spirit to the soothsayer when God said He would not answer him through an medium, of course the use of a medium is an abomination to the Lord, but since the spirit of Samuel returned to God upon death, how could the soothsayer get ahold of it?

Ecc. 12:7

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

~ It is quite clear that Samuel's spirit returned to God, I guess He said He didn't want it. LOL

~ Now Paul compares death to sleep, and I am not going through that again. When one sleeps, one does not know of the passing of time, nor can one praise God. The soul of a human being merely means the life of the human being, or a dead animal for that matter, and does not mean a Plato (et al.) pagan doctrine of an immortal soul.

Gen. 2:7

"And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground,"

~ Notice man was not formed after anything but from dust of the ground. No immortal soul was put inside him. In fact, HE BECAME a living NEPHESH.

~ That same NEPHESH is referred to as living or DEAD ANIMALS too.

~ The meaning of nephesh is a broad one, and so expected after so many years of influences on the word.

properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):--any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.


~ When Christ said to fear Him who can destroy both BODY and SOUL in Gehenna fire, is often misinterpeted. It is rather simple: Don't fear a human who can only kill you from your earthly existence (body), but fear Him who can destroy your LIFE - the 2nd death, in the Lake of Fire.

~ This specific passage about Samuel has to be looked at for what it is - a spirit resembling Samuel. Unless, God decided to give Samuel's spirit to Satan, which is silly. In the Acts of the Apostles, Peter states that even David is still dead and buried:

Acts. 2:29

"Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."

~ Whatever David is, is dead and buried. Not David's body, but DAVID, HIMSELF, the ENTIRE David. And it makes perfectly good sense that if David was dead and buried so was Samuel.

~ A test from the true Spirit of God, for sure.  



"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."
JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 06-21-2005
Posts 679
Pittsburgh, Pa


33 posted 09-06-2006 07:02 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"There is a better question right in front of you Jesus.  Look harder for the real inconsistency."

~ If I had the time. Please, enlighten me.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 06-21-2005
Posts 679
Pittsburgh, Pa


34 posted 09-06-2006 07:17 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"God had been giving Saul the silent treatment in the past, only to finally settle the score with him at the end."

~ Not buying it. Read what I previously quoted. Sorcery, witchcraft, etc., is an ABOMINATION to God. If it wasn't, I'd agree. Now, are you saying that God is saying:

"Do as I say, not as I do?

LOL ~ We, parents are in big trouble if that is true.

Or, are you saying that we can use EVIL in acts of righteousness?

"Our approach with people changes with their circumstances, why would God be more limited than we are, in this regard?"

~ That is not for the carnal mind to ask, because the carnal mind is at enemy with God. We must rely on the Bible, not a philosophical-carnal way of thinking. I could agree with you if the Bible stated that God, in fact, changed his mind and used what IS an abomination to Him for .... what purpose again? Even Satan can tell the truth. It is clear to me, Saul turned to the devil, not only that, to believe what you believe, you'd have to throw out the numerous CLEAR CUT passages provided.




"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."
JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 06-21-2005
Posts 679
Pittsburgh, Pa


35 posted 09-06-2006 11:03 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

http://askelm.com/doctrine/d060101.htm

Excerpt:


Job and Immortal Soul

The patriarch Job asked an important question that goes to the heart of the matter regarding the supposed immortal soul. He asked this question while undergoing intense suffering. The question involves you and all humanity:

“If a man die, shall he live again?”

(Job 14:14)

The answer to this question is yes, but the obvious inference is that the dead are not alive. One is either alive or dead.

All have sinned (Romans 5:12) and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). The soul that sins shall not remain alive in another state of existence or state of being, it shall die:

“the soul that sins, it shall die”

(Ezekiel 18:4).

In light of this, let us enlarge the context and look at the Job passage again:

“So man lies down, and rises not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that you would hide me in the grave, that you would keep me secret, until your wrath be past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.  You shall call, and I will answer you: you will have a desire to the work of your hands.”

Job 14:12–15

This passage in Job is not describing an immortal soul. It is a statement that the dead are dead. They are unconscious, nonexistent — for a period of time — until God calls them and changes the death state like “sleep” to be “awake.” The dead are not immortal. They do not have an immortal soul. Immortality only comes from God, when He chooses to give it.

At the time Job expressed his thoughts, written after his experience of great loss and suffering, he understood that the resurrection would not occur until the heavens cease to exist. He was content to wait “until my change come.” It is doubtful that he understood details about the new heavens and new earth, we cannot tell from what he wrote. To be sure, for the vast percentage of humanity their resurrection will not occur until after the Kingdom of God has been on earth for 1,000 years, the new heavens and the new earth are created, and the Great White Throne judgment begins. This fits precisely with what Job wrote.

“Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?”

1 Corinthians 15:12

~ I'll interject here. It is quite clear that the people of Corinth were already duped by pagan philosophers (read the entire article given), and Paul had to explain to them that there IS NO SUCH THING AS AN IMMORTAL SOUL.


"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


36 posted 09-06-2006 11:05 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

interesting topic, JCP.

There is a chapter in The Late Great Planet Earth which goes into detail what "sleep" and "death" means as is used in the Bible passages and also about how one is ascended to Heaven.
JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 06-21-2005
Posts 679
Pittsburgh, Pa


37 posted 09-06-2006 11:12 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

http://www.republic-christadelphians.org/immortal.html

~ I am adding this article for one purpose only, I am not an affiliate with any denomination.

~ Notice that Martin Luther did not (at least at one point in his life) believe in the immortal soul doctrine.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 06-21-2005
Posts 679
Pittsburgh, Pa


38 posted 09-06-2006 11:17 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"There is a chapter in The Late Great Planet Earth which goes into detail what "sleep" and "death" means as is used in the Bible passages and also about how one is ascended to Heaven.

~ I may have to check that out.

~ Yet, what p**ses me off the most about the mainstream christian faith, is how they scare people into accepting Christ. The hellfire doctrine is a powerful tool to use to recruit people. The more people, the more money.

~ To me, it is crystal clear that God is not trying to save the world now, yet that belief would put just about every christian church out of business.

~ God will save virtually every person who lived, but now is not the time.

~ There have been some close people to me who suffered over what mainstream christians preach, and maybe that is why I do what I do. I am not asking for people to believe it, but if some people read what I quote, maybe, just maybe, God will show them they don't have to suffer and fret over believing in something they don't or cannot understand.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


39 posted 09-07-2006 12:58 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

People suffer over what Exxon, McDonalds, Las Vegas, Jack Daniels, and Marlboro preach.

There are many who find thier lives UN-suffered because of finding a faith.  Unless you have something to offer that's better -- why blow down thier house?
JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 06-21-2005
Posts 679
Pittsburgh, Pa


40 posted 09-07-2006 01:11 AM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"There are many who find thier lives UN-suffered because of finding a faith.  Unless you have something to offer that's better -- why blow down thier house?"

~ Good question, but that is not what I am doing. There is a HUGE differnce in the Christianity I am preaching as to what traditional christianity preaches.

~ God is not trying to save the world now, nor is he calling everyone at this time. For the majority of those people whom you speak for, it is not their concern about these Biblical matters. So, there houses need not to be blown down. They are simply not being called. If one is being called, they will understand the truth and then care to seek out more about the truth.

~ The gate is wide to destruction, but the path is narrow, that is meant to those being called, like me (which I believe I am failing). Therefore, those who are concerned about the things you mentioned will not ever have to worry about what "is better."  


"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."
JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 06-21-2005
Posts 679
Pittsburgh, Pa


41 posted 09-07-2006 01:27 AM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

~ God allows suffering for a very specific reason - For all of us to understand that if we refuse His ways, we are doomed to suffer. The humankind will then know this fact upon our resurrection, when the overwhelming majority will relate that fact to what God and His saints teach (See Isaiah), for no longer will our brother teach it, but those appointed by God, and the overwhelming majority of all who lived - the mentally retarded, the tribes-people who never heard of Jesus, the babies and children who died so young, etc., will believe and become born again into eternal life.

~ This is the true message of hope of an eternal life.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


42 posted 09-08-2006 01:49 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

JCP:
quote:
That is not for the carnal mind to ask, because the carnal mind is at enemy with God. We must rely on the Bible, not a philosophical-carnal way of thinking. I could agree with you if the Bible stated that God, in fact, changed his mind and used what IS an abomination to Him for .... what purpose again?



Firstly I'd like to ask: Is all biblical inference carnal because you didn't do it?  You also are adding ideas to the scriptures, whenever you speak beyond it's text.  Actually it's unavoidable.  It's called "interpretation".  


Secondly, the Bible does give examples where God used what is an "abomination" to him.  1) Balaam the Pagan Sorcerer prophesied one of the longest prophecies in the Bible, and it was from God.  2) God used a nation that did not know him (Babylon), to "speak" to Israel in judgement. 3) The apostate high Priest Caiaphas, also spoke words of prophecy unwittingly.  Since we have such examples in scripture, we may conclude that this it is not necessarily "carnal" thinking, to state that God is not limited in his speech.  


He forbade mankind from necromancy.  But he never forbade the "dead" to speak of their own accord, which is what Samuel did as a prophet.  You are making an unnecessary connection between Saul's wrong action, and the free agency of God and the prophet Samuel.  Saul did what was forbidden.  But I don't recall God ever forbidding prophets to speak, dead or otherwise.


So it makes little sense to think that God would have to "change his mind" when God never prohibited anything except consulting mediums.  Did God consult a medium?  Did Samuel?  


Your position here reminds me of blaming a bakery for making bread, just because a thief was caught eating it.


Stephen.    
JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 06-21-2005
Posts 679
Pittsburgh, Pa


43 posted 09-08-2006 07:41 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"Firstly I'd like to ask: Is all biblical inference carnal because you didn't do it?  You also are adding ideas to the scriptures, whenever you speak beyond it's text.  Actually it's unavoidable.  It's called "interpretation"."

~ As the Hertz commercial states, "Not exactly." One can't add or take away from the Bible. Also, if one does not possess the true Spirit of God, then one interprets out of vain philosophies and doctrines of men. That is why Christ talked about worshipping Him in vain based on commandments and doctrines of men. That is why Christ stated that Satan appears as minister of righteousness, and to beware of those who preach "another Christ." That is why Paul stated that the carnal mind (one that is not of the true Spirit) is an enemy to God.

~ Now, back to Samuel. You, Stephanos, are the person adding to this passage. For some reason, and it is not found in the passages, you believe, in your opinion, based on your thought, that God somehow changed His mind regarding Saul. However, it states clearly, that God would not answer Him through prophet, and no where does it state He changed His mind. You add that, based on the pagan belief of an immortal soul that goes on live after one dies, yet all of the clear cut passages state that the dead know nothing and are asleep in the Ground. Read the excerpt about Job.  

"He forbade mankind from necromancy.  But he never forbade the "dead" to speak of their own accord, which is what Samuel did as a prophet."

~ LOL. God would not allow an alive Samuel to slip to Satan's side, but would give up a dead Samuel's spirit to Satan for use in sorcery. Sorry, that is flat out not scriptual. The dead KNOW NOTHING. That is point blank in one's face a direct testimony of the dead. And if the dead know nothing, then a dead Samuel doesn't know any information to give to Saul.

"Your position here reminds me of blaming a bakery for making bread, just because a thief was caught eating it."

~ Your analogy doesn't work.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 06-21-2005
Posts 679
Pittsburgh, Pa


44 posted 09-09-2006 01:09 AM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"Your position here reminds me of blaming a bakery for making bread, just because a thief was caught eating it."

~ And your position reminds me of how Bill Clinton once described himself as not being alone, meaning even though he was alone in his office, he wasn't really alone since there were other people somewhere else in the White House. Also, that how one defines the word "is" comes to mind.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


45 posted 09-09-2006 02:02 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
it states clearly, that God would not answer Him through prophet, and no where does it state He changed His mind.

Would not? ... or did not?


"And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines,  he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled.

And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
" (1 Samuel 28:5-6)


Seems that this passage merely says "The LORD answered him not".  That's past tense.  No divine limitation on God's own prerogative to speak is given in the text.  So he didn't have to "change his mind" in order to speak through Samuel at a later time.


And if you're really serious about not wanting to "add" to scripture, or twist it with fanciful theories ... Let's see what the scripture says about the personage you call an "evil spirit" ...


"Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David
" (28:16-17)



Stephen
JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 06-21-2005
Posts 679
Pittsburgh, Pa


46 posted 09-09-2006 12:13 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

1SAM. 28:13

"And the king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What did you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth."

~ So, Samuel is a God? Who did the woman see ascending from the ground? She seen a spirit and that spirit was ELOHIYM, not the same word used for a man's spirit. And notice that the spirit ascended from the earth, yet Solomon tells us that upon death, man's spirit returns to God who gave it. I guess God was hanging out inside the earth those days.

Me: "I will not let you go to the concert."

The person transcribing writes:

"And he would not let him go to the concert."


~ No where does it state later that he allowed him to go to the concert.

~ Now, wasn't Eve, a woman, deceived in the Garden of Eden, no doubt here is another example of the devil deceiving others, especially Saul, since he turned to what is an abomination to the Lord, and had the nerve to lie in the name of Lord. His heart and mind was FAR from God and was easily deceived by the ELOHIYM (evil spirit) that ascended from the ground, not the spirit of Samuel "RUWACH" descending from heaven.

Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


47 posted 09-09-2006 02:41 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
So, Samuel is a God? Who did the woman see ascending from the ground?


This is the woman's own description, not the narrator's.  "Elohim" is the plural form of a word that simply means a "god".  And the witch, in awe, was simply stating what she thought she saw. Here it is in context: (I've underlined certain notable parts)


"When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"

The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?"

The woman said, "I see a god (or gods) coming up out of the ground."

"What does he look like?" he asked.

"An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said.

Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
"


So your interpretation is weak for these reasons:

1) The narrator says "when the witch saw Samuel", thus making it clear that despite the witches general description of seeing "gods", this personage was indeed the prophet Samuel.  


2) The witch's association with sorcery would doubtless make her somewhat unfamiliar with the identification of the Hebrew prophet Samuel.  So her mistake is entirely understandable.


3) The witch's description of what this "god" looked like, turned out to be an exact portrait of Samuel.      


4) Saul, being closely aquainted with Samuel, agrees with the narrator, and takes this "god" to be Samuel.


Wouldn't it be much simpler to just conclude that the witch, not being a fan of Hebrew prophets, simply gave a fanciful description of what this episode looked like to her? ... like "gods" coming up out of the earth?  

Your solution makes it necessary to overthrow the narrator's and everyone else's view. (a solution that leads to a myriad of interpretive difficulty)  Mine only makes it necessary to think that the witch didn't know what she was seeing at the time.


quote:
She seen a spirit and that spirit was ELOHIYM, not the same word used for a man's spirit.



Actually the word "Elohim" was not only used to describe "gods", but also governmental rulers (judges) and angels.  And while I don't think the context of this passage supports the idea that the witch was speaking of Samuel as a "judge", (her own association with paganism makes 'gods' much more likely) I merely wanted to point out that the word has been used to describe humans.  


quote:
And notice that the spirit ascended from the earth, yet Solomon tells us that upon death, man's spirit returns to God who gave it. I guess God was hanging out inside the earth those days.
  


First of all, Ecclesiastes is "dialogical literature where Solomon debates many musings within himself.  Many of his subjects are pardoxically approached.  For example, at one time he talks of the "vanity" of life, and at other times speaks of the ability to enjoy life being a gift from God.  But regardless of what you think about Ecclesiastes (or Job for that matter), these cannot be hijacked as doctrinal treatises, as they often express many observations of the natural and philosophical kind, in a dialectical kind of way.  

But aside from mistaking the contemplative passages of Ecclesiastes for doctrinal treatises, you've still got another problem ... If Solomon speaks of "God" being one's ultimate destination, then quibbling over where 'Sheol' may be, is superfluous.  That's like saying that since I left for New York yesterday, I can't be sleeping in North Carolina tonight.  


But I think your main problem is trying to makes Solomon's (and Job's) poetic musings into technical descriptions.  


quote:
Me: "I will not let you go to the concert."

The person transcribing writes:

"And he would not let him go to the concert."

~ No where does it state later that he allowed him to go to the concert.



Let's grant that the text says "I will not let you go to the concert".


Then the faulty interpreter concludes that that must mean "I will never ever let you go to the concert".  


And later we do have what appears to be a concert.  But to save our interpretation, we say it was a devil impersonating Jerry Garcia.  Isn't it easier just to admit that it was the "Grateful Dead" after all?    


quote:
His heart and mind was FAR from God and was easily deceived by the ELOHIYM (evil spirit) that ascended from the ground, not the spirit of Samuel "RUWACH" descending from heaven.



Oh, now you've got the even thornier theological problem of believing that an evil spirit prophesied the exact truth of what would happen to Saul, at the hand of God's judgement.  Care to explain that one?


Stephen.
    

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (09-09-2006 03:14 PM).]

JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 06-21-2005
Posts 679
Pittsburgh, Pa


48 posted 09-09-2006 03:59 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

~ The majority of your latest retort is just a mere rehash of what you have already stated. To say that Solomon didn't mean that the dead know nothing and to say that David didn't mean that the dead do not praise God, and to say that Paul didn't really mean that people are "asleep" in the earth, and to say the excerpt given from Job doesn't clearly state the state of dead, and I could go on and on with more clear-cut passages, while you provide to me passages that can be interpreted differently, does us no good.  

~ But I will answer this:

"Oh, now you've got the even thornier theological problem of believing that an evil spirit prophesied the exact truth of what would happen to Saul, at the hand of God's judgement.  Care to explain that one?"

~ Too easy. A demon spirit can tell the truth, and in this case God obviously wasn't going to answer Saul and the outcome was easily predicted. Satan is the Lord of this World. He does have some power to know what is going on.

MAT. 8:28-29

"And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God?, ...

... art thou come hither to torment us before the time?


~ Um, yes. They knew.  

~ Clearly Satan and his evil spirits can tell the truth, as they were correct. Jesus is the Son of God.


"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."
JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 06-21-2005
Posts 679
Pittsburgh, Pa


49 posted 09-10-2006 01:51 AM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"But aside from mistaking the contemplative passages of Ecclesiastes for doctrinal treatises, you've still got another problem ..."

~ Says you and mainstream christianity. It is easy for one to make an interpretation work, if they say, when reading this passage it is only a musing, but while reading this passage it is not. Maybe, it is God's way of separating those who understand what is the true Lamb and what is Azazel.

"If Solomon speaks of "God" being one's ultimate destination, then quibbling over where 'Sheol' may be, is superfluous.  That's like saying that since I left for New York yesterday, I can't be sleeping in North Carolina tonight."

~ Your analogies fail again. If there was a "stop over" then you are adding it, Solomon clearly states that the spirit, upon death, returns to God who gave it. No where does he say, "Upon death, the spirit returns to God upon death, but it first makes a stop in North Carolina."

"But I think your main problem is trying to makes Solomon's (and Job's) poetic musings into technical descriptions."

~ Yeah, right. When mainstream christianity doesn't have an answer, it can easily say that Job and Solomon's words are merely poetic musings.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> Philosophy 101 >> I Cor. 15   [ Page: 1  2  3  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors