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Religion vs Reason

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The Shadow in Blue
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since 05-18-2006
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0 posted 07-29-2006 03:40 PM       View Profile for The Shadow in Blue   Email The Shadow in Blue   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit The Shadow in Blue's Home Page   View IP for The Shadow in Blue

I know there are other threads that are currently debated religion and it's authenticity,but to me I am a little confused. I think I am alone on the issue that religion and the existence of a supreme being/God/Goddess is on the false side. I don't know but it just seems to me that religion has caused more wars and strife then helped.

First, I don't really see much evidence, at least from what I know that materials like the bible have any backing. I mean Jesus did exist, but he was just one of many "prophets" in the Roman era. And because of that I find that all the "miracles" and parobles he did  were just propaganda for the followers of Christianity, etc.

Plus peoples blind following of their religious beliefs all through history have led to many bloody wars and strife. Just look at The Inquisition, The Nazi's, North Ireland (Catholic vs. Protestant), The Gaza Strip (Palestinians vs. Iraelies), etc. I mean seriously the majority of wars have caused by differences in people's belief of God.

Sure religion has helped some people by giving them something to belief in when they had nothing, but it is hard to belief when the Church and it's leader have sat idely by when rights are taken for granted. Just look at the government today. In the laws of the USA there is seperation of state and religion ,but that is turning out to be a sham. Look at Bush's adminstration for example. He has used the Christian Coalition and sited the bible for what he thinks is right. But in the grand scheme of it all the bible  is as outdated of a text as possible.

Let's just say I'm little confused on if religion is even that great now a days. All you really need, in my opinion is to treat people with respect and equality and use intellect where blind faith has been. Logically then there wouldn't be problems with the Islam faith and other slightly biased main stream religions.

I'm just wondering what other people's opinion on religion and if it is necessarily where the best interest is for the world's nations.

~J.

I'm taking my own chances to find truth between the lies.
Its kinda like just what it is.
http://www.myspace.com/theshedevil05
Essorant
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1 posted 07-29-2006 06:17 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I think trying to blame religion is like trying to blame an apple for a bruise on the apple.  However the more you blame it the more it is likely to become more bruised, because you are not blaming what is really causing the harm: disrespect and bad manners that hurt and insult people and things that are very close to a person's heart, such as a religious belief.

Why will you blame the apple instead of the violence that bruises it?

iliana
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2 posted 07-29-2006 06:54 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Organized religion serves a very good purpose, especially for the young.  It provides the roots to expand.  However, I believe the problems that exist in religions today is that teaching/learning peaks at a certain point, and in many cases is kept there because of the structures and perimeters of doctrines set down by each organization, but 1 Corinthians 13 advises differently, at least the way I interpret it.  To me, it says, when we grow up (and become "adults") in our faith, we need to continue to explore and trust like a curious child would....that stopping our learning when we think we know the answers turns us into only poor reflections of what we could be.  

1 Corinthians 13

"1) If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2) If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3) If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. 4) Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5) It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6) Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7) It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8) Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; [b]where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9) For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10) but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11) When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12) Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13) And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

The Shadow in Blue
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3 posted 07-29-2006 06:54 PM       View Profile for The Shadow in Blue   Email The Shadow in Blue   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit The Shadow in Blue's Home Page   View IP for The Shadow in Blue

That's a good point Essorant. I guess I unintentionally used my biased ignorance as an excuse. All I can say is that some people in history used religion as an excuse for their plots. That is probably where I got this logic from.


iliana- That is one part/book of the bible that I agree with. But one thing I don't get in the bible is the hatred and cold shoulder towards true love, even though it comes in different forms with different people. And that is contradictory to Corinthians. I sort of turned my back to religion a little bit when the election happened in 2004 with the opposition to gay marriage. I guess I'm more about equality and the bible in some verse is contradictory towards that.
iliana
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4 posted 07-29-2006 07:16 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Shadow -- religions are not perfect....no argument -- they have politics like everything else in the world, unfortunately.  But....the words of the Christ are perfect and they are layered in meaning which unfolds even deeper in its meanings the older we grow...if you love the Christ, then I would focus on his teachings and not dwell on the rest of the Bible.  My own personal opinion is that the complilation of the Bible was manipulated for political reasons during the first and second Councils....writings which did not fit the agenda of the organized Church at that time were tossed. Even King James had the Bible edited for his own selfish purposes. But, today, there are so many different churches and some of them are very open and loving, really.  I have encountered a couple in my 55 year journey....but what is more important than the church is that we live our lives with faith, hope and most of all love....if you miss a church and the fellowship, look around until you find one that offers friends that have these qualities.....just advice from old mom, here.   And, I'd add, look for one that does not stiffle your spiritual growth.
Essorant
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5 posted 07-29-2006 07:23 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"I sort of turned my back to religion a little bit when the election happened in 2004 with the opposition to gay marriage. I guess I'm more about equality and the bible in some verse is contradictory towards that."

Did you know that gay marriage is not mentioned anywhere in the bible?

The Shadow in Blue
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6 posted 07-29-2006 07:30 PM       View Profile for The Shadow in Blue   Email The Shadow in Blue   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit The Shadow in Blue's Home Page   View IP for The Shadow in Blue

Most Anti-Homosexual supporters site King Jame's bible where it is said,
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
Also in Leviticus 18 and 20 there are verses about openness involving stoning/violence.
Not A Poet
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7 posted 07-29-2006 07:31 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

It is certainly true that many conflicts, wars and other attrocities have been perpetrated over the centuries in the name of religion. There is a vast difference though in personal religion (faith in a supreme being) and formal organized Religions. The latter are interpretations, not necessarily factual or sometimes even reasonable.
The Shadow in Blue
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8 posted 07-29-2006 07:33 PM       View Profile for The Shadow in Blue   Email The Shadow in Blue   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit The Shadow in Blue's Home Page   View IP for The Shadow in Blue

I actually sorta belief in faith,but not necessarily God. I guess sort of like the whole Buddist outlook on religion.
iliana
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9 posted 07-29-2006 07:35 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Shadow, here's a link that is interesting:    http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/king-henry.html

Also, Queen Elizabeth (the first one) also ordered a translation.  Every time a translation occurs, I believe that leaves plenty of subjective wiggle room.  

That you are searching is a good thing.  Seek, and ye shall find.  *smile*
iliana
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10 posted 07-29-2006 07:43 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

That's good, Shadow.....I kinda think Jesus was very Budhist in his teaching except he refered to God as Father and in Budhism, there is no father.  I think that Christianity, in particular, trys to put God in man's terms, when in fact, there is no way we could ever comprehend what God truly is.  We can only understand what God is as we are able to perceive.  For that reason, I like to think of God as the Creator of All (and in that sense, God is a father/mother). *smile*

[This message has been edited by iliana (07-29-2006 11:39 PM).]

Essorant
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11 posted 07-29-2006 08:53 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

It basically comes down to the old principle:  

Don't believe everything you read!!!
serenity blaze
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12 posted 07-29-2006 09:47 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Brad
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13 posted 07-30-2006 12:37 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

There's a saying in Korean, "The soldiers win the fight, the generals win the credit"

The general in religion does not speak except through an infinitely interpretable text.

When one does something in the name of God or following the word of God, perhaps the question might be, "And if it weren't the word of God, would it still be the right thing to do?"
Essorant
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14 posted 07-30-2006 12:50 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

What's the difference between blindly following a human-general's words or blindly following what is deemed to be God's words?  Both are "blindly" following something that could be wrong. I think that is the fault.
iliana
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15 posted 07-30-2006 03:29 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Essorant....the only thing that should be blind...is love?
XOx Uriah xOX
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16 posted 07-30-2006 05:26 AM       View Profile for XOx Uriah xOX   Email XOx Uriah xOX   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for XOx Uriah xOX

I am very drawn to the doctrine that the one who is blind, deaf, and illiterate clings to.    The relationship that arises between "you" and the "Source"...without having ever heard or seen the concepts that drive the rest of the world.     I enjoy the teachings of every religion, but I always end up back in the "lap of Mind".     :: shrugs ::

[This message has been edited by XOx Uriah xOX (07-30-2006 06:04 AM).]

Digital_Hell
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17 posted 07-30-2006 05:14 PM       View Profile for Digital_Hell   Email Digital_Hell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Digital_Hell

I would like to pose this question to you. A few of you seem to put great stock in jesus. Consider this however. Jesus came to earth knowing god was real and that he was god's son. So he was not a man was he? He knew with absolute convivtion that he was gods son and that god was there for him. He did not come to earth as a man, but rather as THE SON OF GOD. There is a very large difference between the two... If he came to earth as a true man, and had to suffer as he did, Do you still think he could have preached the same way he did? Suffered as he did for us? Found the light? I do not.

My advice, through personal experience. Although the church of christ offers many great ideas, it has its flaws as do any other religion. Rather live as someone guided by their own personal beliefs and try to improve upon yourself as a human being. Do not believe in some deity that will forgive you all your wrong doings if you repent but rather make peace with the fact that you are flawed, imperfect sinfull. And live despite that. Accept the fact that you will make mistakes and simply deal with the consequences.

hells gate reads Abandon hope all ye that enter here
shall we go?
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Will you walk with me?

Stephanos
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18 posted 07-31-2006 09:38 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

The Shadow in Blue:
quote:
I don't really see much evidence, at least from what I know that materials like the bible have any backing. I mean Jesus did exist, but he was just one of many "prophets" in the Roman era. And because of that I find that all the "miracles" and parobles he did  were just propaganda for the followers of Christianity, etc.


I'd recommend that you do some more searching.  There's no solid reason to suspect that the Gospels do not reflect the purist narrative of what really happened, concerning Jesus.  Alternate histories don't have the same textual support as the Bible (which is very good- with manuscripts exceeding that of all ancient literature), since Gnostic writings are dated later, with pseudonymnous claims of authorship.  


There are many other things to consider apart from manuscripts, along the lines of historiography.  If the followers of Jesus, knew that his miracles, and in particular, his ressurrection were fictitious, then one can hardly find a good reason why they might abandon the entire framework of their cultural / religious life, for a lie.  In its cradle, Christianity was a sure way to be excommunicated from Judaism, and ostracized from the Jewish community.  Second generation zealots, who are deceived, may go to such extremes and even suffer martyrdom for a lie genuinely believed.  But you really won't find that kind of devotion among the primary group, who knows whether or not the claims are true.


Many, many other things to consider.  I would recommend you look into the likes of Gary Habermas, or N.T. Wright, if you're interested in whether or not Christianity has firm historical roots, rather than propaganda.  I, like you, have no desire to believe a man-based religion, and especially one with historically flimsy claims.  But I have examined to the best of my ability the historical aspects of the Christian faith, and have found it very convincing.


quote:
Plus peoples blind following of their religious beliefs all through history have led to many bloody wars and strife. Just look at The Inquisition, The Nazi's, North Ireland (Catholic vs. Protestant), The Gaza Strip (Palestinians vs. Iraelies), etc. I mean seriously the majority of wars have caused by differences in people's belief of God.



This shouldn't be surprising, since religion is one of the most passionate convictions in the human heart.  Things of the highest value or meaning, are the things that incite zeal and therefore the desire to "fight for" what is right.  


If this is true of religion, it is also true of ideology in general.  The 20th century proved to be a devastating century of killing based upon materialist ideology as well.  In that sense, atheism has been as bloody as religion, proving that religion cannot be the scapegoat for our blame about war.


Seeing that the blame for war is a bit wider than religion, I would emphasize the question of whether particular religious claims are tenable, truthful, or enlightening.  You shouldn't judge a system or a teaching, based upon its bad examples.  Especially when such examples explicitly contradict the teachings of the founder.  All the things you mentioned are contrary to the teachings of Jesus.  
  

quote:
But one thing I don't get in the bible is the hatred and cold shoulder towards true love, even though it comes in different forms with different people. And that is contradictory to Corinthians. I sort of turned my back to religion a little bit when the election happened in 2004 with the opposition to gay marriage. I guess I'm more about equality and the bible in some verse is contradictory towards that.



The answer from a Christian standpoint, is really a question.  What exactly is the "true love" which you feel the Bible denies?  


If you're referring soley to homosexuality, I don't see how that can be equated with "true love".  Not even heterosexuality can be equated with "true love", since the sexuality of a relationship can be quite separate from love.  


With that in mind, it's not the "true love" which may be involved in a homosexual relationship that is condemned.  Nowhere does the Bible forbid concern, camaradarie, friendship, tender feelings, etc ...  What the Bible does identify as sinful is the homosexual aspect of such relationships, which may or may not be accompanied by "love".  


I understand that such a thing would be pragmatically difficult to sort out, but when assessing the Biblical teaching about such, this distincition has to be made.  There is no kind of genuine "love" that the Bible condemns.  Yet homosexuality, per se, is sinful.  


quote:
All you really need, in my opinion is to treat people with respect and equality and use intellect where blind faith has been.



Blind faith is harmful.  But I think that the Biblical version of "faith" is not of that description.  Nor does reason have to pitted against the Christian faith.  In fact some feel that apart from the world-view of Christian Theism, that reason itself becomes doubtful.  I am one of those who feel this way.  


I've got lots of material which examines the faith, in light of reason, and vice versa.  If you're interested e-mail me.  I really believe that the Christian-Worldview is very fufilling intellectually, and can be appreciated without mindless devotion.  Devotion is necessary, but the mind need not be left out.  


quote:
Most Anti-Homosexual supporters cite King Jame's bible ...
  


Just for clarification, the King James Version is only a 1611 translation of ancient manuscripts.  There are many versions of the Bible, including many fine contemporary English ones, which are translated from the same manuscripts.  And all accurate translations pretty much relate the same textual / doctrinal content.


Iliana:
quote:
I kinda think Jesus was very Buddhist in his teaching



In what ways was Jesus or his teachings "Buddhist"?  


quote:
I think that Christianity, in particular, trys to put God in man's terms, when in fact, there is no way we could ever comprehend what God truly is.  We can only understand what God is as we are able to perceive.



I think you're concern is valid.  But don't make the mistake of confusing accurate knowledge with comprehensive knowledge.  It's really a matter of faith in God himself, whether or not he could get to us a reliable revelation of himself that is accurate and true.  That doesn't mean that we could ever know it all ... but it does mean we can know something real about God through his chosen revelation to us.  


Christianity is the story where God place "His things" in man's terms, even in humanity itself through the incarnation of Jesus Christ.  Don't be fooled by the humanity, or think that such a treasure can not be held in "earthen vessels".  If we don't understand that, we may mistake the true revelation of God, as a construct of men alone ... when in reality, sanctified humanity need not be a barrier to God's communication.


We may be too proud for such a revelation as "human" as that.  But God wasn't too proud  to give it, and become it.  That's the whole point.


quote:
The general in religion does not speak except through an infinitely interpretable text.


I would say, Brad, that it's nowhere near "infinitely" interpretable, though its applications, poetry, and scope are anything but tame and simple. I would rather say that it's closer to being infintely changeable and contortable.  But staying true to the text, and especially the "Holy Spirit" of the text, allows freedom without autonomy.  There is form with freedom, but not freedom from form.

quote:
When one does something in the name of God or following the word of God, perhaps the question might be, "And if it weren't the word of God, would it still be the right thing to do?"


A transcending question would be "If there is no word of God, where does one get the idea of a 'right thing'?


quote:
I would like to pose this question to you. A few of you seem to put great stock in jesus. Consider this however. Jesus came to earth knowing god was real and that he was god's son. So he was not a man was he? He knew with absolute convivtion that he was gods son and that god was there for him. He did not come to earth as a man, but rather as THE SON OF GOD. There is a very large difference between the two... If he came to earth as a true man, and had to suffer as he did, Do you still think he could have preached the same way he did? Suffered as he did for us? Found the light? I do not.



The Christian doctrine is that Jesus was God AND man.  He was all God, and all man, as it were.  His humanity is just as real as his divinity.  Limitations are not the same as sinfulness, and he was a man in every respect except for moral sin.  


Thinking that Jesus was an "inhuman" divine being with only the appearance of humanity is a heresy known as Docetism.  The biggest problem with it, is it makes the historical life of Jesus non-sensical.  How could he pray "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" if he were not human?  There's just too much data we have that indicates, in spite of his divine nature, he was nothing less than human.  


quote:
Do not believe in some deity that will forgive you all your wrong doings if you repent but rather make peace with the fact that you are flawed, imperfect sinfull. And live despite that. Accept the fact that you will make mistakes and simply deal with the consequences.



That leads to one of two tendencies:  1) Fatalism-  We're sinners, and forgiveness and grace is therefore unthinkable and unrealistic.  or 2) Euphemism-  We're not really sinners, we're just making a few mistakes, and everything will be okay.


When God deals with a person about sin, it comes in two forms ... An inability to minimize it, because of a revelation of ourselves ... and inability to despair over it, because of a revelation of the love of God.  


Stephen.
Stephanos
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19 posted 07-31-2006 12:20 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

I once wrote a little poem about the false dichotomy between faith and human reason.



If reason and faith lie worlds apart
Both in the human mind and heart
If rational thought be Heaven’s treason
Then Soren thought “To hell with reason”
And I must admit, I do admire
Such devotion as reckless as a fire
Willing to cast the Earth away
And For Christ embrace absurdity
But why charge God with ill design
Or a confusion that is only mine?
Why claim his work and words are broken
When mortal ears betray what’s spoken?
No, faith and reason are not averse
But rather in this present curse
Are like two lovers who have their fray
and yet will see their wedding day.




Stephen.
Digital_Hell
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20 posted 07-31-2006 02:47 PM       View Profile for Digital_Hell   Email Digital_Hell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Digital_Hell

quote:
The Christian doctrine is that Jesus was God AND man.  He was all God, and all man, as it were.  His humanity is just as real as his divinity
Then by your own words he had divinity. Which is exactly my point, DIVINITY the thing humans dont have. He is man and GOD making him inhuman. While he had all the human experiences and emotions, he is still GODLY in that he knew with absolute conviction heaven was real. He never had true despair and hoplesness.

quote:
How could he pray "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" if he were not human?
Yes he did pray that. But he still knew that gods was real. He did not question if god was real only if god was with him. While in some aspects he was human in others he was inhuman. He never fell in love with a woman now did he? (Conspiracy theories aside) He never questioned the existance of God? Never wondered if everything he believed was but a joke, something society had forced upon him.

quote:
1) Fatalism-  We're sinners, and forgiveness and grace is therefore unthinkable and unrealistic
I dont say that is what being fatalistic means. This would be my meaning: I am human, i make mistakes, Im not perfect. The things i do will lead to consequences, either good or bad and they must be dealt with. I am more than willing to die. If i was to die today i could do so happily knowing i lived my life the way i wanted to and am at complete peace with myself. What is wrong with that. I can die with no hesitation, nothing holding me back. No i dont say in the end everything will be ok, but can i live with that, yes. If I go to hell i go to hell. If not then i dont. Accept life as it is, Yes there is a God. But remember you must choose to follow him because you want to, you want to spend your life working for him. Just following him because you want to be a better person is not the only way. You can strive to better yourself without god.

quote:
and inability to despair over it, because of a revelation of the love of God.
And what if you have that without God?  

hells gate reads Abandon hope all ye that enter here
shall we go?
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Will you walk with me?
Stephanos
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21 posted 07-31-2006 07:57 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Digital H:
quote:
Which is exactly my point, DIVINITY the thing humans dont have. He is man and GOD making him inhuman. While he had all the human experiences and emotions, he is still GODLY in that he knew with absolute conviction heaven was real. He never had true despair and hoplesness.



Well, if Jesus was divine, then at least one human had divinity.  For whatever philosophical reason, you may think this union impossible, there is still the data to deal with.  Jesus said and did many things which indicates that he was very much human.


He did doubt.  And at least he was tempted to despair.  I don't think he had the same view on Earth of The Father, that he had in Heaven.  Earth was a "veil of clouds" to him as well, especially since he was taking upon himself the weight and burden of the sins of the entire human race.  Hopeless?  Pretty much, yet not completely.  


And really it's the same with us.  We may have pain and uncertainty, but through God and Christ, we may stop well short of despair and hopelessness.


quote:
in some aspects he was human in others he was inhuman. He never fell in love with a woman now did he? (Conspiracy theories aside) He never questioned the existance of God? Never wondered if everything he believed was but a joke, something society had forced upon him.




I don't think you can say that he never encountered such temptations.  As I recall, Satan tempted him with the "IF you are the son of God ..." questions.  I'll bet during the wilderness times, that "IF" reverberated in his mind, though he did have the victory.  There is a verse in Hebrews which tells us that in all points he was tempted like we are, yet without sin.


quote:
And what if you have that without God?



I don't think any man can ward off final and irreversible despair without God.


Tell me, is that last little quote about hell on your page spoken by someone with or without God?


Stephen.  
Kitherion
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Posts 179
Johannesburg


22 posted 08-01-2006 03:31 AM       View Profile for Kitherion   Email Kitherion   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kitherion

"Beware all you who seek first and final principles, for you tramp down the garden of an angry god." The topic of Christianity has been debated and destroyed many atime. Why then do we still seek to implicate ourselves within it?

Kitherion

Digital_Hell
Member
since 06-05-2006
Posts 193
Amidst black roses


23 posted 08-01-2006 03:33 AM       View Profile for Digital_Hell   Email Digital_Hell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Digital_Hell

quote:
Well, if Jesus was divine, then at least one human had divinity
I would rather say that One god had humanity and not a human divinity.
Yes i agree with you he did many things which demonstrate his humnanity. But he also did many things that a human would not. That he could only do as the SON OF GOD and not as a man.

quote:
He did doubt.  And at least he was tempted to despair
NO he did not, Please show me where in the bible he says GOD DOES NOT EXIST? He felt that god may have forsaken him, left him too his fate. But he did not question if GOD EXISTS. He doubted his purpose, his strength, purpose.

quote:
himself the weight and burden of the sins of the entire human race.  Hopeless?  Pretty much, yet not completely.
I would rather say its sad, yet very noble. He was willuing to sacrifice himself for us. Hopeless in your eyes?  

quote:
And really it's the same with us.  We may have pain and uncertainty, but through God and Christ, we may stop well short of despair and hopelessness.

God and christ are not the only way.

Yes he was tempted, but did he ever have to go through the heartache and despair of falling in love and losing that? Did he ever question if God was real? no.

quote:
I don't think any man can ward off final and irreversible despair without God.

I disagree. I no longer have god, and the people who share the darkness with me keep me from despair. Hows that for a final solution?

quote:
Tell me, is that last little quote about hell on your page spoken by someone with or without God?
Wihtout, since the line obviously intends for the man to walk into hell. And do so happily. And its not a quote. The lines "abandon hope all ye that enter here" is the real inscription on hells gate. and we all know About the road paved with good intentions... I just added my own emblemishment to it. So that they match my character. And its something i intend to do one day...



hells gate reads Abandon hope all ye that enter here
shall we go?
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Will you walk with me?

Kitherion
Member
since 08-01-2006
Posts 179
Johannesburg


24 posted 08-01-2006 03:39 AM       View Profile for Kitherion   Email Kitherion   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kitherion

I maintain nonetheless that Ying-Yang dualisimn can be overcome. Soon we will be able to have mind without body, morals without thought... but untill then we should continue towards the path towards enlightenment.

Within the path of the Goddess I walk, she guides my every step.. into the oblivion called life.

 
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