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XOx Uriah xOX
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50 posted 08-02-2006 03:54 PM       View Profile for XOx Uriah xOX   Email XOx Uriah xOX   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for XOx Uriah xOX

Knowledge is power
Ignorance is Bliss

LOL    duh huh    yup !
Ron
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51 posted 08-02-2006 06:34 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Lee, here's $2 for you.

DH, here's another $2 for you.

The two of you now owe me five bucks ... unless, of course, you are absolutely sure that two plus two actually equals four?
Brad
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52 posted 08-02-2006 08:45 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
Can you accept that religious belief and reasonableness can coexist in the same person?


Of course.

Yet, there is a strain of thought that argues against the entire Enlightenment tradition and at least now it seems to be playing on religion.
Digital_Hell
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53 posted 08-03-2006 02:55 AM       View Profile for Digital_Hell   Email Digital_Hell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Digital_Hell

quote:
The two of you now owe me five bucks ... unless, of course, you are absolutely sure that two plus two actually equals four?
No i am not absolutely sure. While i would concede that in current times 2 + 2 does in fact equal 4. I am entirely willing to be open to the possibility that there might be a someone out there who has proved that 2 is in fact not not 2. Speaking of mathematics, anything to the power of 0 is 1. And yet 0 to the power of 0 is reasoned as undefined. Mathematiccs are not absolute, after all how many theorems have been roved wrong.

What is man's purpose on earth but to seek enlightment and eventually enter heaven? Christiandom believes this...

hells gate reads Abandon hope all ye that enter here
shall we go?
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Will you walk with me?

Kitherion
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54 posted 08-03-2006 03:02 AM       View Profile for Kitherion   Email Kitherion   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kitherion

Now now Digital, you're twisting my words. I actually said that saying God/Supreme being doesn't exist is like saying we don't need oxygen to exist. It has been proven that people need to believe in something (in the case of atheiests themselves). This is not to say that they don't actually exist, but rather that they do not reach the enlightened state thet others MAY reach (key-word: MAY!!!!).

Blessings

Within the path of the Goddess I walk, she guides my every step.. into the oblivion called life.

Local Rebel
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55 posted 08-03-2006 05:50 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

It has been proven



By whom?  When?  Where?  What study?  What conditions?  Sample size?  Replicated?
LeeJ
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56 posted 08-03-2006 07:09 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Reb

Changing life style modifications help to prevent Alztimer's Disease, keeping active both physically, mentally and socially.  

Information on Alztimer's Disease
http://iadc.iupui.edu/pdf/reflections_winter_03.pdf
http://www.alz.org/maintainyourbrain/overview.asp
click on the Learn More tools
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2006-04-16-brain-fit_x.htm?POE=TECISVA
http://myhealth.barnesjewish.org/healthyliving/familyhome/may06healthy.htm
http://www.neurology.org/cgi/content/full/66/6/E21

of course, there are other factors involved, but studies prove that by staying active mentally certainly is a preventative tool which helps to prevent Dimencia and Alztimer's Disease.

To expand on my comment, Knowledge is Power....
http://taylorandfrancis.metapress.com/(p0mf024540fqqp55apviwtir)/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parent&backto=issue,6,7;journal,26,46;linkingpublicationresults,1:102464,1

Focusing on vast numbers of small, rural communities in the poorest of regions of society studies have identified population growth, poverty, and degradation of local resources often fuel one another. The collected research has shown that none of the three elements directly causes the other two; rather each influences, and is in turn influenced by, the others. This new perspective has significant implications for policies aimed at improving life for some of the world's most impoverished inhabitants.
Uriah...

lack of education contributes to poverty and crime
knowledge is an additive in crime prevention

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/prgpdfs/fcpu53.pdf


take any subject, the more you know about it, the more you explore and gain information on a subject, the more knowledge one gains, alleviates fear.

Example
Have you ever been told by a doctor that you have a disease or sickness that you never heard of before?
Your horrified...but in days to follow, as you seek out information, in talking to others you find out, there are so many people out there with the same illness, you learn, your not the only one, and the more you learn, the less fearful you become.  Same with any issue.

jbouder
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57 posted 08-03-2006 09:28 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Brad & Ron:

quote:
Brad wrote: "Yet, there is a strain of thought that argues against the entire Enlightenment tradition and at least now it seems to be playing on religion."


quote:
Ron wrote: "The two of you now owe me five bucks ... unless, of course, you are absolutely sure that two plus two actually equals four?"


Brad, if the lines of thought you are alluding to are what I think they are, those lines of thought attempt to cast doubt on the reasonableness of just about anything.  My question would be, besides an Enlightenment-like worldview, what is the alternative?  A position that we cannot view the world at all?

Ron, I think you're touching on the issue I wanted to raise.  The reason/religion dichotomy might exist, but, if so, so does a reason/mathematics dichotomy.  We can have a reasonable basis (in varying degrees) for our beliefs about God, math, science, and who in the NFL has the coolest uniform (clearly, the Oakland Raiders), but I think applying a standard to religion one is unwilling to apply to all other "classes" of knowledge is ... well ... unreasonable.

Ess:

One of these days I promise I will more fully comprehend how you communicate your thoughts.     Not a bad thing ... you simply have an intriguing way of seeing the world.  In this case, I think I understand and agree with you.  We tend to categorize and constrast things in a way that makes sense to us, but if we drill down on the subject we realize that those constructed categories are often arbitrary, and that it is better to consider the whole as well as the parts.

Am I on the right track here?

Jim
Ron
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58 posted 08-03-2006 10:25 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
No i am not absolutely sure. While i would concede that in current times 2 + 2 does in fact equal 4. I am entirely willing to be open to the possibility that there might be a someone out there who has proved that 2 is in fact not not 2

So send me my five bucks. And every time someone hands you change for a purchase, you should give at least half of it back to them just to make sure you aren't cheating them. They, after all, may not be quite so mathematically enlightened as you are.

Of course, until my five dollars arrive in the post, I think I'm going to assume that you say one thing and practice something quite different. No matter your words, you will continue to live your life as if two plus two really does equal four. You will get out of bed every morning and put your feet on the floor with the unspoken assumption that gravity will hold you to the Earth. You will walk into a room with the full expectation of finding breathable air being dispersed. You will continue to expect hot things to cool and cold things to warm.

Don't feel too badly, though. The faith you have in physics and a life-long history of experience is a pragmatic necessity. You couldn't long survive without blindly assuming that what was true yesterday will still be true today. It's good to have an open mind about things. It's suicidal not to ever be sure of anything. And it's semantic foolishness to confuse the two.


Not A Poet
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59 posted 08-03-2006 12:34 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

I once had a physics prof who exhibited the strangest behavior. When writing at the chalkboard and the chalk would break (as chalk often does) he invariably looked up instead of down where the pieces invariably fell. When finally questioned why he did this, his answer was, "There is a small but still finite probability that the broken piece of chalk will fall up instead of down. If that happens I damn sure don't want to miss it." Now is that an act of faith or what?
Digital_Hell
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60 posted 08-03-2006 12:52 PM       View Profile for Digital_Hell   Email Digital_Hell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Digital_Hell

quote:
Of course, until my five dollars arrive in the post
A postal adress?

quote:
It's suicidal not to ever be sure of anything
Well then i suppose im suicidal... But let me ask you how can we be absolutely sure of anything? Name one thing that is absolute, that cannot change.

quote:
"There is a small but still finite probability that the broken piece of chalk will fall up instead of down. If that happens I damn sure don't want to miss it." Now is that an act of faith or what?
Now this is amazing. I loved it. This is the sort of thing i am talking about. To keep a completely open mind and be wholly open too pure chance. To believe in the unbelieavalbe and not resort to complacency. To view each new day as a day of infinite possibility. Each dawn a new and unique one, to be looked at with open unclouded eyes.

A sign in  the wind
ringed by the falling petals
Alone
Amongst black roses

XOx Uriah xOX
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61 posted 08-03-2006 01:21 PM       View Profile for XOx Uriah xOX   Email XOx Uriah xOX   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for XOx Uriah xOX

There was a time, as a child, when all I knew concerning Jesus or "religion" could be summed up in one line of a childrens song...
"Yes, Jesus loves me..."
It was all I knew.   It was all I needed to know.  
It was Faith.  Without even knowing that it was "Faith".   Feeding from the Tree of Knowledge will never bring you back to that blissful state...and "Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein."
It took many years of regurgitating the "Knowledge" I had eaten...   before I finally got back to the simple truth..."Yes, Jesus loves me."
As a child...you were free and carefree.  I am a firm believer that it is the "knowledge" that the child is buried beneath that imprisons it.   Oh yes...knowledge is needed to function in the "World", the "System".   But we are speaking of "religion".  I am not aware of a religion that teaches us to gain knowledge so that we may function better in "Man's World".  Most that I am aware of tell us to...  as Jesus said for example...Be no part of it.  
"Knowledge" will not bring you Liberation.
Liberation is only sought...due to there being the concept of Bondage.
All thoughts of "gaining" Liberation...only further increase the thought that you are not Free.
Unity is sought...due to thoughts of Seperation.   The quest for Unity...only furthers the concept that you are Seperate.
It is only the concepts held within the mind that you are striving to be free from.
and luckily...
A well furnished mind is not needed to go beyond the mind.

"The intellectual man who is proud of his intelligence is like the condemned man who is proud of his large cell." --- Simone Weil

It is only my "opinion"    But, I agree.
LeeJ
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62 posted 08-03-2006 02:36 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

hmmm, Uriah, very interesting stuff you've brought, thank you

but I'm wondering, then why were we given a brain more evolved then any other thing on this planet, that is in fact still evolving, and of which we only use 1/3 of?

and oh, Uriah, when I speak of knowledge, it is thus, so much more then the intellectual level, as growing within the spirit of all things, boy, I don't exactly know how to explain this...please forgive me, as I do ramble, and cannot always explain myself clearly...and it becomes very hard and frustrating for me...

I mean, there are all kinds of intellectual levels and knowledge, such as how to control temper, or sit in quiet as a listener, or to clear out the conditioning and become more patient, loose the anger, ego, etc.  

Then to, there is a curiosity to learn about cultures, religions, nature, science, history...not that you want to be a know it all, or flaunt it, but better one's mind, keeping it active? Consider other forces, dimensions, Einsteins theories, I mean doesn't all that information excite you?  

Do you understand what I mean?

Just curious?

oh and by the way, you said

quote:
"The intellectual man who is proud of his intelligence is like the condemned man who is proud of his large cell." --- Simone Weil


oh so true...

I just want to keep learning, take every moment to absorb stuff, yanno...

and I really hate it when people are to ego driven to help teach, or try to look down upon you because you are not of the intellectual level they are...where does that come from and why and how can people be so mean, so cruel?  I don't get it?

Anyway, I just think God gave us a brain to work things out, together...to help each other, to nurture each other along, and to mentor others?  

Just my thoughts, stupid as they may sound?
serenity blaze
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63 posted 08-03-2006 02:55 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

"Lee, here's $2 for you.

DH, here's another $2 for you.

The two of you now owe me five bucks ... unless, of course, you are absolutely sure that two plus two actually equals four?"

LMAO

For a second there, I thought Ron meant that Lee and and DH owed him five bucks each, so I thought he was getting back TEN. Then I thought, gee, y'can tell Ron's from Louisiana!

Now y'see what I get for thinking?

winkie wink nudge!

gleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee


coffeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
XOx Uriah xOX
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64 posted 08-03-2006 03:49 PM       View Profile for XOx Uriah xOX   Email XOx Uriah xOX   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for XOx Uriah xOX

"better one's mind"
Ah   Where is it?    Is Mind your possession?
Does it belong to you?   Or...Does this "you" belong to IT ?
We can lay the brain upon a table and examine it.  It is an object.  
Where is the mind?

Yes, gather all the knowledge you wish.  Have a ball !!!!!    Enjoy!    This is as it should be.  But...do not think that you can "attain" peace from it.   You cannot attain what you have always possessed.  The very thought that you may be able to "attain" it...prevents you from realizing it.
No matter.    Enjoy    
Even thoughts of "lack" or "suffering"....Enjoy.    In Truth...YOU are prior to "knowledge"   prior to "suffering"   prior to the "body" and "brain".  Prior to the "world".    You think you exist within it...but it only exist within That which YOU Are.   So...Enjoy!!!!   You know you do.
You even enjoy the suffering.   Oh, You may think and say that you dont...
but that's cool...
You enjoy that also.  LOL
And its as it should be.
That which you are is totally unaffected by any of it.
There is only Perfect peace.   There is only total Bliss.
So....Enjoy!!!!!
::smiles::
Matchbox   Tiddly-wink    Blah blah blah.

:: bows ::
serenity blaze
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65 posted 08-03-2006 04:19 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

to better one's mind...

smiling here

My mom once said that I would prolly die in a classroom.

I replied that if I wasn't trying to learn something, I was already dead.

Shrug. It's not like I have something else to do and I'm sure it looks quite insane for someone to watch me unshelve books, and re-shelve books, only to toss some and hug others.

My particular life situation right now is very much how I picture Federal Prison.

Except I haven't been offered a book deal.

Yet.

:curtsy:

Ya'll are great company too, btw. so thanks
Stephanos
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66 posted 08-04-2006 01:03 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
Stephen: A transcending question would be "If there is no word of God, where does one get the idea of a 'right thing'?
Brad: That's not a transcendent question, it's a different question.

Well, aside from my theistic idea of "transcendence", this question does supercede your previous statement, which amounted to saying that "right" should be a thing-in-itself, rather than originating in the character of God.


At least I can point out that you've attempted some kind of "final" answer, with the idea of a self-authenticating rightness ... which is pretty much disallowed for a post-modernist such as yourself?  


Actually, I do think about the nature of God as it relates to the love I have for my children.  I'm not saying that I wouldn't love them, even if I didn't believe as I do.  But I also attribute that to the grace of God, in virtue of his creation.  You were created (imago Dei) to love your children, and that's a hard mould to deny, your philosophy notwithstanding.  


This much is presupposed in Jesus' parable where he asks "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?"


And for those out there who really are asking "why should I love, or even care?", I think it is God who can provide a spiritual orientation and answer, from which love may begin.  


Jim:
quote:
if the lines of thought you are alluding to are what I think they are, those lines of thought attempt to cast doubt on the reasonableness of just about anything.



Maybe that's another way of saying that while Christianity reasonably casts doubt upon autonomous reason, postmodernity has sought to do the same with all reason.  


BTW, good to see you both (Brad and Jim) around.  

Stephen.
LeeJ
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67 posted 08-04-2006 07:45 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

hey Uriah...your a hoot!

thank you for your input.

On Knowledge

All forms of the word KNOWLEDGE in the Text of the Scriptures, sorted by relevance.

2 Pet. 1: 2-3, 5-6, 8
  2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the aknowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

  3 According as his divine power hath given unto us aall things that pertain unto blife and cgodliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us dto glory and evirtue:
      •  •  •
  5 And beside this, giving all adiligence, add to your faith bvirtue; and to virtue cknowledge;

  6 And to knowledge atemperance; and to temperance bpatience; and to patience cgodliness;
      •  •  •
  8 For if these things be in you, and aabound, they make you that ye shall neither be bbarren nor cunfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Alma 32: 21, 26, 29, 34-35

  21 And now as I said concerning faith—afaith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.
      •  •  •
  26 Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.
      •  •  •
  29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.


Isn't nature of him?  Isn't science and everything else upon this earth of Him, why then, would it be bad to search for more?  I believe that is what we're supposed to do, to improve...to grow, mentally...to continue to evolve...

But Uriah, I do understand what your sharing as well...and it makes sense...it is simply my belief, and I'm not arguing yours, I just think, we are meant to explore and discover more...

I believe in it's own way, religion needs to evolve...and that is the reality of religion

Some forms of the word RELIGION in the Text of the Scriptures, sorted by relevance.

For example:


JS-H 1: 5, 12, 21-22, 75

  5 Some time in the second year after our removal to Manchester, there was in the place where we lived an unusual excitement on the subject of religion. It commenced with the Methodists, but soon became general among all the sects in that region of country. Indeed, the whole district of country seemed affected by it, and great multitudes united themselves to the different religious parties, which created no small stir and division amongst the people, some crying, “aLo, here!” and others, “Lo, there!” Some were contending for the Methodist faith, some for the Presbyterian, and some for the Baptist.
      •  •  •
  12 Never did any passage of ascripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects cunderstood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.
      •  •  •
  21 Some few days after I had this vision, I happened to be in company with one of the Methodist preachers, who was very active in the before mentioned religious excitement; and, conversing with him on the subject of religion, I took occasion to give him an account of the vision which I had had. I was greatly surprised at his behavior; he treated my communication not only lightly, but with great contempt, saying it was all of the devil, that there were no such things as avisions or brevelations in these days; that all such things had ceased with the apostles, and that there would never be any more of them.

  22 I soon found, however, that my telling the story had excited a great deal of prejudice against me among professors of religion, and was the cause of great apersecution, which continued to increase; and though I was an bobscure boy, only between fourteen and fifteen years of age, and my circumstances in life such as to make a boy of no consequence in the world, yet men of high standing would take notice sufficient to excite the public mind against me, and create a bitter persecution; and this was common among all the sects—all united to persecute me.
      •  •  •
  75 We had been threatened with being mobbed, from time to time, and this, too, by professors of religion. And their intentions of mobbing us were only counteracted by the influence of my wife’s father’s family (under Divine providence), who had become very afriendly to me, and who were opposed to mobs, and were willing that I should be allowed to continue the work of translation without interruption; and therefore offered and promised us protection from all unlawful proceedings, as far as in them lay.


Ron
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68 posted 08-04-2006 08:23 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Isn't science and everything else upon this earth of Him, why then, would it be bad to search for more?  I believe that is what we're supposed to do, to improve...to grow, mentally...to continue to evolve...

Ah, so you believe that men and women should be promiscuous, Lee? Moving from one relationship to the next, always looking for the greener grass?
LeeJ
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69 posted 08-04-2006 09:23 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

RON???????
NOOOOHHHHHHH, absolutely not

did I give you that idea?

I'm talking about mental stimulation, knowledge, education, exploring nature...(watch the beasts of the fields and learn from them) climate patterns, atmospheric patterns, how the universe works...we know that unique way in which some whales and porpose communicate, they are just learning that some white sharks have actually formed patterns together, hearding and hunting seals...
Science, technology...paranormal...

Ron
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70 posted 08-04-2006 10:38 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

So, Lee, why should your relationship with God be any different from a relationship with a man?  

I've spent a couple of days writing a response to something Karen said earlier, not because my response is real complex or anything, but just because it's hard to find time to pull my thoughts together. I'm mulling, I guess. At any rate, I'll prelude that coming post with the suggestion that, while it's often good to be open-minded and eager to explore, there's also something to be said for monogamy. We stick with two plus two equals four, not because it's particularly exciting or attractive, but rather because it consistently works.

The time to look for something new is when the old stops working for us, not when we simply want a new adrenaline rush. I think that holds true for marriage, for science, and most especially for religion and philosophy.


Stephanos
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71 posted 08-04-2006 10:50 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Ron,


I know we don't always see eye to eye, but you just made me proud.


Stephen.
LeeJ
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72 posted 08-04-2006 11:05 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Ron:

ahhhh, (the light bulb goes on) point well taken...it shouldn't be any different...

well, I agree with you to a degree Ron, and yes, it does work, but it doesn't, as it's usually the foundation for disagreements, leading to wars, then murder.

Another point is....and getting back to the topic, I have something else to share/ question....

look thru all religions, and you are sure to find in all of them, an attempt to seperate from reality, be it spiritually, or an attempt to escape material confines thru meditation...(Meditation being listening to god, Prayer being talking to God)

Atonement and ritual Christianity tries to reduce religion to myterious forces in defiance of reality.  i.e. ancient rituals of sacrifice created by demons, parting of the waters, pray and the Lord will create miracles...

Yet, Christ said, in terms of reality...do unto others...and by the way, we humans are forever seeking those mysterious forces of spiritual truth...but he says, do unto others?

Isn't truth in reality an agreement with reality?  The path to reality and life, is to unlearn sin?  Sin cannot live in the light of honesty, so a person might determine that in order to problem solve, we need more knowledge, to help ourselves.
  
For instance, the more you give to the poor, the more they accept it as an expectation to live and survive, you make them lazy, with no desire to work for their needs.  But if you give the needy honesty, truth, then they can figure out their own problems on their own...right?  

What I'm saying is two things

1.  Religion does go against reason in some ways...yes?

and, 2.  education, knowledge is important to manifest understanding, growth...yes?




XOx Uriah xOX
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73 posted 08-04-2006 11:17 AM       View Profile for XOx Uriah xOX   Email XOx Uriah xOX   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for XOx Uriah xOX

There was a time when due to me having a great hunger and thirst for a deeper "knowledge" or "understanding" of  "God".
I set about...  feeding myself.       As my "knowledge" increased, there were many discussions and debates with "others" who were also striving to feed themselves.    Yes,  One would say, "Lo, here"   and another would say  "Lo, there".    
I could listen to the opinions of one denomination, concerning certain teachings, and understand completely how they came to their conclusions.      I could also listen to the opinions of ANOTHER denomination, on the same teachings, and completely understand how they came to THEIR conclusions, which were entirely different from the first group.     In almost every case...there was also the conclusions that  " I "  had come to....which differed from all the others.    They each held "truths" that could be shown and explained.
Which one was correct?      They had made their decisions and chosen the "banner" that they would stand beneath.   Some stood under the banner of "Mormon".     Some under the banner that declared..." I am Seventh Day Adventist ".    Some "Jehovahs Witness".  "Catholic"    etc.       It stretched on...   "Buddhist"      "HIndu"    etc.
Each member of each had made their choice.    Which do I choose?     I can see and understand what THIS one says...   But, I also see and understand what THAT one says.      Which do I choose?       I struggled with this for a long time.    I wrestled with it.  
Then...  I realized...   " I " cannot "choose".     I quit !      I surrender !      It is not up to "me" to decide.
I recalled the story of the Tower of Babel  (confusion).     They were trying to make their own way to God.   Through THEIR efforts.  Through their WORKS.     Now....They have broken up into various groups.   Each group having its own understanding.   And each group...still trying to make their way to Heaven...through THEIR efforts.    Within my Being...I kept hearing the cry..."Babylon has fallen!"
"Come out from her !"      "Come out from the Confusion !"
I surrendered.    I threw up my hands and declared, "No More !!!"       It is not for "me" to decide.    I entered into Rest... and in faith...waited for whatever I was to "know" to be revealed.     That day I vowed that whatever is gathered from then on...will be what is given to me.   I will cling to none of it and whatever takes hold...takes hold.      The wrestling was over.      A great peace came upon me that day and has remained.     It is like the story of Jacob, wrestling with the angel...   It is when he ceased his struggling...  When he loosened his grasp...  That he received the blessing.
The next day I came upon the first words I ever saw from Meister Eckhart...     "He who seeks and finds, finds not.   He who seeks and finds not, shall find."      I saw the ones who stood under their "banners".    Declaring , "Lo, Here !"    They had sought....and found...and made the decision...."This is it"       But, they had not "found"....They had simply decided to pick up a stepping stone and stand still while embracing it.   Or....With some....They carry the stepping stone, clinging to it as they try to travel on, and it becomes a stumbling block.
I have learned that ...this is perfectly fine too.   LOL      
Every crossroad we come to...whichever route we take will ALWAYS be the one that we needed.   It may not be the route "prefered" but... "preference" so often tends to spoil the moment to moment.    LOL      Regardless....The next message you need will ALWAYS come...exactly where you are.
Yes...There "seems" to be an...evolving.    But, it is not dependant upon your efforts.   You cannot WORK to "gain" so that you evolve.
It comes as it comes.    The potential of the oak tree lies within each acorn...and the acorn need not "struggle" to bring it forth.    The chicken was within the yoke...regardless of the yoke's "efforts".
Yes, study the beasts of the field.    Which one wrestles with their BEing?     Which ones are discontent with their nature?
In the beginning....Let us make man in our image.   After our likeness.     So....There ya go.      Ah  But Man says....Let us "Do" this and that...so that we can "be like God".   LOL     Always trying to fix what isn't broken.  
And this too....    is perfectly fine.  
So yes.   Seek     Search     Study     Increase knowledge through your own efforts.    Its all good.
In the end...You will not gain anything that was not already yours.
Enjoy !

and...please forgive my boring excessive rambling.

:: bows ::    
LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


74 posted 08-04-2006 12:53 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

boaring excessive rambling???? I think not!!

makes sense...and a much broader wisdom which most do not comtemplate...I love to hear other's opinions on things...and yours is certainly not exempt.  

I wish, I owned your patience....

have a great weekend and many thanks.
 
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