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Passions in Poetry

Cogito ergo sum

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Digital_Hell
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since 06-05-2006
Posts 193
Amidst black roses


0 posted 07-20-2006 04:35 PM       View Profile for Digital_Hell   Email Digital_Hell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Digital_Hell

I think therefore i am. Famous words. This however raises in me the question. What is it to think? What is thought? What is our mind? And how does this relate to who we are as people? How does it affect our personalaties? We all have different thought patters, but what is thought itself?

They say that words are the core of thought, That without words there can be no thougt. Is this true?
And also relating to dreaming,is dreaming simply a random assortment of images and sounds. Or is our mind trying to send us a deeper message?

And a question of understanding. Is it ever possible to understand our fellow man? We cannot share his pain, we can share experiences,joy,love and many more but to not share pain, the very thing that makes use human. Can we by lacking such a key ingredient in a persons life undertand them and get into their mindset?

hells gate reads Abandon hope all ye that enter here
shall we go?
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Will you walk with me?

kif kif
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since 06-01-2006
Posts 431
BCN


1 posted 07-20-2006 05:32 PM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

What's this, Digital...20 questions?

I like what Lama Anagarika Govinda is reported to have said;

"Each word was originally a focus of energies, in which the transformation of reality into the vibrations of the human voice-the vital expression of the human soul-took place. Through these vocal creations man took possession of the World, and more than that; he discovered a new dimension, a world within himself, opening upon the vista of a higher form of life..."

Like the hypnagogic and, is it 'hypnopompic'(?) experience, to reference your dream tip; surreal.

As for your question about understanding another...a humans development is somewhat based on his or her capacity for empathy; being able to see, feel and desire to comfort  someone elses pain. It's not all that makes a person, though...dogs are empathic. It's all about our ability to communicate through spoken and written language. This is where the importance of words and pictures come into understanding, although I would guess that if we hadn't developed written 'signs', we'd be more sensually developed.

I'm not sure where you're going with your collection of questions...is it something to do with the vastness of the mind, and that  needle in a haystack feeling? Perhaps this can be where dreams come in, too. There are 'signs' and 'symbols' universally experienced, since recorded time. This suggests that some sort of empathy must be 'hard-wired'in our conciousness. (I did say suggest, but it's a hazardous guess!)  
Digital_Hell
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since 06-05-2006
Posts 193
Amidst black roses


2 posted 07-20-2006 05:43 PM       View Profile for Digital_Hell   Email Digital_Hell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Digital_Hell

Sorry im simply trying too see where you all stand on the matter before i give my own personal opinions.

Yes it is to do with the almost infinite quality of the mind. But i also want to see how and under what you believe we understand each other as people and how we understand one another. As well as to gain a deeper understanding of what the mind is. And how we relate to our conscious and sbu conscious minds. And furthermore how our mind affects our reality and perception.

hells gate reads Abandon hope all ye that enter here
shall we go?
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Will you walk with me?

kif kif
Member
since 06-01-2006
Posts 431
BCN


3 posted 07-20-2006 05:58 PM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

It's funny, because I had a conversation this morning with my little boy, about colour perception. He boldly said "I don't see colour the same as you-that van's red to me, but my red could be your green." I asked how this would work, and he said "well, when I first found out about red, it was you that told me."

I have to say, the kid makes me lost for words.
Digital_Hell
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since 06-05-2006
Posts 193
Amidst black roses


4 posted 07-20-2006 06:04 PM       View Profile for Digital_Hell   Email Digital_Hell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Digital_Hell

Well i must agree with you there. Im at a loss for words... Funny how children often see striaght to the heart of the matter. Perhaps it is because they accept what they are given as the truth. Their minds and perceptions have not yet been warped by the world and they can see things truthfully.

hells gate reads Abandon hope all ye that enter here
shall we go?
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Will you walk with me?

Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
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since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


5 posted 07-21-2006 12:20 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Believing that our senses are generally reliable, is being "warped by the world"?


I have children too, and they are known for two things ... 1) amazing insight at times, and 2) serious lapses of reason.


It's irrational to think that we "see" different colors just because we can't see through another's eyes.  A couple of things make that proposition implausible ... 1) We have confirmation of sensory conformity from multiple sources 2) The uncanny fact that my red would always mean your green, (this kind of 'order' would be even harder to explain than the simpler proposition that we all see the same).  


The bottom line, is that it requires some amount of "faith" to live.  I have no problem believing that sensory perception is reflective of proper reality, because of God's design.  However there have been many philosophers who have wrestled this question right into the mire of skepticism, committing epistemological suicide.  The empiricism of David Hume ultimately led him to doubt the existence of "self", since we never actually percieve ourselves ... only sensory data supposedly representative of ourselves, and only "thoughts" about what is called "self".  If nothing else, Hume did prove that faith is required for the most basic assumptions of life.    


I think, if nothing else, that the Cartesian motto illustrates the absurdity of doubting the obvious.  


One asks "How do I know that I exist?"

Another answers "Whom shall I say is asking?"

Stephen.  
kif kif
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since 06-01-2006
Posts 431
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6 posted 07-21-2006 02:47 AM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

I did suggest that , perhaps my red was his pink.

Chuckle..."it's me!"

[This message has been edited by kif kif (07-21-2006 04:44 AM).]

Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


7 posted 07-30-2006 12:23 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

(On a grammatical note:

"Whom shall I say is asking?" should be "who shall I say is asking?"

And

"It's me" should be "It's I"

That is because the verb be does not act transitively upon a word putting it in the objective case, but just links one word in subject-case to another word in subject-case, like cars of a train if you will.  

Thus "He (subject-case) is He (subject-case)" is grammatically correct.  But "He (subject-case) is him (object case)" is incorrect.   )

Hope that makes sense  


Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


8 posted 07-30-2006 12:56 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I think thought is dependent on language but to be honest it depends on what you mean by thought. If you mean what goes on inside your brain, well no, there are plenty of things that go on in your brain that don't require a complex language. There are plenty of things that many people call thought but I don't -- complex reflexes, behavioral patterns, basic inferential reasoning etc. I'm pretty sure most of that stuff isn't dependent on a language.

I'm quite confident that many animals are aware of their surroundings, sometimes in many complex ways, but what I can't figure out is how you can be aware that you are aware without a complex language.

And as far as the color thing goes, we already know different people see different colors.

We usually call them color blind.  

Alicat
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since 05-23-99
Posts 4277
Coastal Texas


9 posted 07-30-2006 01:17 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Ess does have a pluralistic grasp of grammar, and would be absolutely appalled if ever in Texas.

As for the litany of questions, there is a marked perception that pain is the only thing which makes people people.  Pain is a part of many aspects which constitute the jangled web of mobile consciousness shuffling through this mortal coil declaring 'Ego sum solum unum!' to the Universe at large and otherwise.  Which could care less.  As Stephanos pointed out, Faith plays a major role irrespective of personal ideology.  But the main thing which makes us human is physiology: we all basically look alike.  Well, most of us.  2 arms, 2 legs, head above the shoulders, and compared to other bipeds, essentially hairless houseapes.  To say pain is the only thing which unites all people only serves to cheapen what it is to be human.

There are a few other things which tie us all together, such as our noses.  I've yet to meet someone where if another states 'Smell this, it's awful!' will not only smell that nasty scent, but take another whiff.  No matter how refined we might think of ourselves, our noses are always that kid who pokes a stick at that dead thing in the ditch.

Another is racial memory, though it's been disputed.  There resides in all that primal button marked 'FEAR' when we hear the wolves howl, or catch 'strange' noises while camping.  There's something about night in unfamiliar territory that sets our hearts pumping.  And there's always that neolithic rage which raises a stout tree limb on high screaming in a gutteral voice 'KILL THEM ALL!'.  Most know how to suppress this, while there's some who just don't care.  However, I've yet to hear of any who willingly and knowingly allowed loved ones to be injured or killed without the claws and fangs showing.

From whence do dreams come and why?  There's a mountain of rather dry tomes on the subject.  Except Freud.  Now there's a one with some serious issues and not enough female contact.  To answer that question, the answer is Yes, All The Above.  There are times when our brains run screensavers while the rest of the neurons file the day's paperwork.  Sometimes dreams serve the purpose of problem-solving.  There was one time I was stuck while writing a mobprog for a MUD and the rather eloquent and simple solution to a complex problem came to me in a dream.  And it worked perfectly.  At other times dreams might be seen as portents as we subconsciously attempt to work through problems and fears, though there are times when we see far more than we give ourselves credit.  And then there's just the strange stuff.

For example, I've written many pieces based on dreams I've had, where I was either the primary character, a physical observer, or at times a disembodied observer.  Think of an articulated free-motion camera.  Some have featured me while other dreams employ actors I've never met nor seen.  The real oddity is being the primary actor and realizing that I'm not in my own body, that this is someone else, feeling like I'm in the backseat of a another's car.  Try puzzling that one out.

As for truly understanding another, that is physically impossible.  We can empathize, we can sympathize, but we can only be ourselves.  Even identical twins don't really know what it's like to be the doppleganger.  Any claim otherwise is pure delusion.  You can only be yourself, though there's always those who put that to the test.  Poor sods.

When one starts asking questions such as 'Why am I here?', 'What's it all mean when you get right down to it?', and 'Why do we think we think?', that only means one thing: too much freetime.  The only answer I have is 42.  Not just because Douglas Adams says so, but also because it's as good an answer as you're going to get.
Digital_Hell
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since 06-05-2006
Posts 193
Amidst black roses


10 posted 07-30-2006 05:18 PM       View Profile for Digital_Hell   Email Digital_Hell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Digital_Hell

quote:
Why am I here?', 'What's it all mean when you get right down to it?', and 'Why do we think we think?'
Ah but only by wondering about ourselves, questioning our nature are we able to better ourselves and attain a higher understanding would you not say?

hells gate reads Abandon hope all ye that enter here
shall we go?
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Will you walk with me?

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


11 posted 07-30-2006 08:42 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Cogito ergo insanio

"I think therefore I go insane!"
Kitherion
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since 08-01-2006
Posts 179
Johannesburg


12 posted 08-10-2006 09:30 AM       View Profile for Kitherion   Email Kitherion   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kitherion

[Off-topic comments removed. Please discuss the subject, not the people involved in the discusssion. Ron]

[This message has been edited by Ron (08-10-2006 12:07 PM).]

Kitherion
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since 08-01-2006
Posts 179
Johannesburg


13 posted 08-11-2006 07:53 AM       View Profile for Kitherion   Email Kitherion   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kitherion

Many Apologies to you Digital. What I said was meant to be a joke... but anyway. I think therefore I am... Not exactly the most definate of statements at all. People often think without being sentinent at all, this is the most common relapse in brain waves, or thoughts. Although that this doesn't necessarily mean that people have been removed from being (or sentinence if you will)it is the essential thread of human existance.

Once again,many apologies.

Within the path of the Goddess I walk, she guides my every step.. into the oblivion called life.

Edward Grim
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since 12-18-2005
Posts 1112
Greenville, South Carolina


14 posted 08-21-2006 04:45 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

What is the mind? My absolute favorite question next to which direction is the exit.

In my humble opinion, the mind is the most intelligent cheeseburger ever to be placed between two ears. The mind is only what occupies it whether it be philosophy, poetry, or grade A meat with a slice of provalone.

The mind is a stark white wall and whatever color paint you spill on it is what it is.

I strongly suggest you see "Barton Fink" by Joel and Ethan Coen; it is one of my favorite films and I think you might really appreciate it.

Kudos on the question by the way, very cool, ask me where the exit is and you'll get extra points.  


[Insert quote of wisdom here]

[This message has been edited by Edward Grim (08-21-2006 11:41 PM).]

 
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