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Passions in Poetry

Dark vs Light

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Walter Poe
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0 posted 06-26-2006 01:20 PM       View Profile for Walter Poe   Email Walter Poe   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Walter Poe


Ok i've been dodging around this subject for a little while now anyone who has read any of my (Recent) poems will know i love the dark and I am not a fan of 'Happy lovey poetry' so since i have been getting lots of agreement from other dark poets i'm going to throw the debate open to a wider audience. This is your chance go on defend yourselves Happy lovey people and all you dark poets making your brief visits outside of your twisted souls big up the darkness.  
Essorant
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1 posted 06-26-2006 02:12 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"Ok, I've been dodging around this subject for a little while now. Anyone who has read any of my (recent) poems will know I love the dark and I am not a fan of 'Happy lovey poetry'. So since I have been getting lots of agreement from other dark poets I'm going to throw the debate open to a wider audience. This is your chance. Go on, defend yourselves Happy lovey people and all you dark poets making your brief visits outside of your twisted souls big up the darkness. "

A little more tidiness in the way you present your words may make a fair difference for those that read them.  


Nightshade
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2 posted 06-26-2006 06:01 PM       View Profile for Nightshade   Email Nightshade   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nightshade's Home Page   View IP for Nightshade

Thanks Essorant.  Now....Walter Poe, what is the question?
Digital_Hell
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3 posted 06-27-2006 02:56 PM       View Profile for Digital_Hell   Email Digital_Hell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Digital_Hell

There is no question about it. The Dark is the best!!! It touches on emotions and feeling in a way that the happy go lucky side never can. The dark is the side that people have experienced the true side of life on. They no longer have false dreams and illusions... Yes obsiously im a dark poet and a darker soul

hells gate reads Abandon hope all ye that enter here
shall we go?
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Will you walk with me?

Walter Poe
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4 posted 06-30-2006 03:18 AM       View Profile for Walter Poe   Email Walter Poe   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Walter Poe

Ok essorant i am a dark poet i believe in emotion not punctuation i'm not a teacher i don't pretend to be perfect i have written some very good poems without feeling the need to put in every capital letter comma or semi colon.

perhaps this is the real reason dark is better than light we don't need to be perfect because emotion is a bullet you fire it bang bang bang you don't have to think through every sentence to check your punctuation or even spelling you just do it.

Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Digital_Hell
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5 posted 06-30-2006 07:21 AM       View Profile for Digital_Hell   Email Digital_Hell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Digital_Hell

Hear Hear Walter! That is what i was trying to express. Those in the dark do not hold forward a mask of perfection. We do not have a facade, we are who we trully are as human beings. Imperfect and flawed, incomplete. And by being willing to admit that we are insofar superior to the light. We write of true human emotion. Not innocent dreams and hopes but the true emotion beneath it.

hells gate reads Abandon hope all ye that enter here
shall we go?
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Will you walk with me?

LeeJ
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since 06-19-2003
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6 posted 06-30-2006 10:46 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

I believe there is purpose for both sides of the coin, and dark being your favorite is merely prefrence, no?  I've dabbled in dark poetry some, and enjoy the challenge of such...but in most of my poetry, and this is merely my own analysis, that dark and light are both present, not meaning it to work out that way, it simply does.

But, yes, totally agree, dark poetry is raw emotion, brutally honest at best, and the only way I can describe this, is, I not only love the ocean/seas for the romance and beauty, but her hautingly beautiful & sensual alliance of the dark side

But I see your title for this thread is Dark vs Light, and so, I cannot say I like one above the other, but I need both entities

One thing...Digital Hell you said
And by being willing to admit that we are insofar superior to the light. We write of true human emotion.

But isn't light pure and raw human emotion as well, laughter till you side splits...????

And why would you say being a dark person makes you superior to the light?  Now you starting to sound like a politician to me  
Essorant
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7 posted 06-30-2006 03:19 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant


If the beasts of the wildest jungle could boast, I think they could boast about pursuing more than just pouring out raw emotions.  

Digital_Hell
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Amidst black roses


8 posted 06-30-2006 04:00 PM       View Profile for Digital_Hell   Email Digital_Hell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Digital_Hell

LeeJ i would agree that the light side as you put it "pure and raw human emotion as well" but the emotion captured in the dark is more real. It is more tangible and powerfull, it speaks of the beauty of things as well as the despair involved. It is not only of how icreadible beautifull and special love is, but also of the pain and despair felt when things dont work out. But i would say that yes perhaps some light is needed in the poem.

Essorant if you are going to argue your point at least be civil. Not only did you flame Walter for his punctuation, you also now stoop to implying we are lower than beast.

The dark is not just raw emotion. If you have ever bothered to read some of the dark poems you will see that the emotions is oft times beautifully and carefully set out. A vague hint rather than an outright decleration. Perhaps i made you misunderstand when i said "Raw" i mean to say not directly stating "I hate you" or something as silly. But rather that it is a true emotion, expressed exactly the way we feel it. The very words throbbing with the feeling. Conveying it in more than just a image.

And i still maintain that the dark is better. For the simple fact that whereas the light simply described the heart wrenching beauty of a land stepped in moonlight, with colours softened to grey, a gentle breeze blowing across the long flowing grass, the gentle whisper of a owl etc... the dark can then take that image and add to it how this is the lonelyness and empty realm of your heart.

And lastly: A POLITICIAN?!?!? i might be dark , evil twisted, corrupt, sadistic and generally not good. But i would never stoop that low  

hells gate reads Abandon hope all ye that enter here
shall we go?
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Will you walk with me?

Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


9 posted 06-30-2006 06:49 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I didn't mean my point towards you or anyone else; but against making out structure such as good grammar and punctuation as if they hinder expressions, rather than help them.  You fail to prove how they hinder them.  It is seldomest those poems in any forum that use those things less that stand out as careful and well written poems, but those poetries that take what is there to help the language be more stable and readable and graceful, that stand out as best.  What sincerity that is behind it doesn't matter.  It is the virtue of what is in the poem itself and how it stands as a poem in the end.  You can be as sincere as you want, but that doesn't guarantee that your poetry shall be well written.  Some of the best works are "fiction" or "nonfiction", some of the worst works are "fiction" or "nonfiction" too.  That's because it is about the virtue of the work as a poem itself, not the fact of whether the writer necessarily sincerely feels it in this way or that way.  But if he does say or suggest that he truly believes in this or that, then it is not the writers fault if the reader doesn't believe he truly does.  It is not up to the reader to decide what the writer sincerely feels or not, or what feelings he should reveal thereof.  That is up to the writer.


[This message has been edited by Essorant (06-30-2006 09:16 PM).]

Digital_Hell
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10 posted 07-01-2006 08:24 AM       View Profile for Digital_Hell   Email Digital_Hell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Digital_Hell

But would you not agree that the writer, by glorifying an idea, feeling or an object by writing on it is attempting to convey his feelings and view of what he writes on. He is showing us the beauty or the horror of that thing.He is telling us how he feels, how he views it, and wants us to respond to that. IN poems such as "Anthem for a doomed youth", "Paradise lost" "on his blindness" (yes John milton is a favourite) we see the writer express his true sincere feelings on an object and his want for us to interpret that accordingly, To attemtp to share in what he feels.
Essorant
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11 posted 07-01-2006 01:22 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I think it is only right to give the author the benefit of the doubt. But what if the author wasn't being sincere?  Would it make a difference to the excellence of those poems?   What if he were just writing for money, or representing what some leader's feelings were or a ruling nobility's feelings were, and expressing something he didn't even agree with much at all?  Of course I don't believe that is so.  But if it were, would that take away from the excellence of such poems?

[This message has been edited by Essorant (07-01-2006 01:55 PM).]

kif kif
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12 posted 07-01-2006 02:23 PM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

Sorry to put a dampener on your 'fires of darkness' (heheh) but I've not seen much dark poetry in Dark Poetry. Most of it is cliched, uses dead metaphors (and another heheh) therefore does nothing to *convey the obscure.

My opinion of much Dark Poetry; teenage goths hanging around the village graveyard, scribbling their naive horrors.

I see more scope for darkness in Spiritual...mwahahahahaha.

I will agree with LeeJ's comment that suggests perhaps a contemporary darkness can be found in political poems, and also familiar poetry. It's not *all cobwebs, demons, hating yourself, musing about blood-letting, and how you feel about being abandoned, you know.

(And Now, for a Bit Of Trumpet Blowing, Check My Poem Out In Dark Poetry, Entitled "Beehivoral Therapy"! Already, it's on page 2...Trapped in one big compound eye? Yeah man.)

I asterisked some parts to highlight that, while these subjects are worthy, the cliched rendering of them lessens my opinion of them as 'dark' poetry. People don't look into 'cliched' remarks, just as some don't embrace darkness. A double whammy. In my opinion, you have to lead people into darkness  through interest, and most poets/people here aren't interested in stock examples; they need the unique essence.

I would reiterate that darkness, just as lightness, cannot be compounded into one definition (compare Plato's 'Symposium' to Herbaliser's 'Saturday Night'. I would suggest that lovers of darkness should look further from their designated forum, to see what's really *obscuring light. Ditto, for those desiring light; pop into the darkness forum, and realise there's little inky blackness! (but, I keep on searching...!)

As for the argument as to whether dark is better for conveying emotion...who gave the goths the authority of conveying emotions? Heck, the opposite of Gothic's got to be Country and Western, both equally emotional.

It's not about whether the dark atmosphere is better at conveying emotion as the light atmosphere. All good poems invoke an emotional, sensual, stirring response.  

[This message has been edited by kif kif (07-01-2006 03:19 PM).]

Digital_Hell
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Posts 193
Amidst black roses


13 posted 07-01-2006 05:39 PM       View Profile for Digital_Hell   Email Digital_Hell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Digital_Hell

Essorant do you trully think that an poet would pour his heart and soul into a work he did not believe in? That he would simply pretend to feel a certain way? i do not think he could ever trully put his soul into his work if it was a fake and that yes the result would show a difference. A work that is simply written is not nearly as good as one that brings tears to your eyes and speaks to your heart. Although a  lack of personal emotion does not subtract from a poem, its lack is noticable.

kif kif, sorry to break it to you but nothing will dampen my 'fires of darkness'. And if you do not believe there is much darkness in dark poetry i suggest you take another look.

First of all im not gothic though i do tend in that direction, and secondly my horrors are hardly naive.Everything i write on is from personal experience...

"It's not *all cobwebs, demons, hating yourself, musing about blood-letting, and how you feel about being abandoned"

I urge you to read what i have written and tell me if it falls into the blind list you attempt to catagorise dark poetry in.

"I would reiterate that darkness, just as lightness, cannot be compounded into one definition" i would agree fully here that you cannot force it into a definition since both darkness and light can be interpreted uniquely by a person and as such cannot be forced into a single view of "light" or "dark".

I do also read the the other poetry forums although i dont respond on them.I take an interest in them in view of gaining another side to my view of things.

"who gave the goths the authority of conveying emotions?" rather snide and sarcastic wouldnt you say? and more than a little judgemetal, dont assume that because we write dark we are all gothic. Goths arent the only people in the world with problems you know... Yes other areas also convey emotion of that there is no doubt. I am simply stating that by encompassing the "light" and "dark" as a lot of dark poems do, that they convey a better, more accurate more truthfull view of the emotion. A deeper more real emotion if you will.

"It's not about whether the dark atmosphere is better at conveying emotion as the light atmosphere. All good poems invoke an emotional, sensual, stirring response." umm, did you happen to read the title of this thread? "Dark vs Light" that rather says it all doesnt it? so yes the question here is which is better and why, since that is what this thread is about. Dont simply be caught up on the emotion, It is not the only aspect of "dark" and "light" that should be discussed here. I reiterate the question here is which is better and why.

Again the title describes what we should be arguing "Dark vs Light". all the aspects of both of them.

hells gate reads Abandon hope all ye that enter here
shall we go?
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Will you walk with me?
kif kif
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since 06-01-2006
Posts 431
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14 posted 07-01-2006 06:06 PM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

In all you say, 'Hell, I don't believe Dark Poetry should be all about 'personal' problems.

I admit, I can be rather sarcastic, the lowest wit...excuse me. You wanna know dark?    

Yet, just because the title suggests a versus, doesn't mean there really is one.

Emotive release is what we need, for success in our chosen form of art-It's about what emotions are invoked by a piece of work, rather than what emotions inspired it.

If everything you write is inspired by personal experience, then you are naive, in my opinion. I don't believe you have to experience something 1st hand to understand that it exists.

[This message has been edited by kif kif (07-01-2006 08:02 PM).]

Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
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15 posted 07-01-2006 06:25 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Kif kif

You begin to make it personal when you say something like "you are naive"  Try to keep your claws on the argument at hand, and off the person you are arguing with!


Essorant
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Posts 4689
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16 posted 07-01-2006 06:43 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

May you shrink that image a bit so it doesn't stick out so much?

Thanks Kif Kif.  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (07-02-2006 01:17 AM).]

Digital_Hell
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Posts 193
Amidst black roses


17 posted 07-01-2006 07:55 PM       View Profile for Digital_Hell   Email Digital_Hell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Digital_Hell

kif kif

I would agree that you dont have to experience something first hand to understand that it exists, but without having gone through it yourself you cannot understand what it is like. Without having had it happen to you all you have is a vague idea of what it is like, you think you know what that person is going through, but without having been there yourself you cannot know...

i am not directing that at you, im using the wote "you" simply to speak about a person.

"Emotive release is what we need, for success in our chosen form of art-It's about what emotions are invoked by a piece of work, rather than what emotions inspired it."

But would you not say that the emotions  evoked are going to be akin or linked to the emotions that inspired it? The poet writes his feelings to inspire a reader to a emotional result, that result is based on what inspired the poet to write the poem. If he was inspired by lost love, then sympathy is an expected response would you not say?

And i must disagree, there will always be a versus between light and dark. For the simple reason that on both sides people are unwilling to accept the idea that they are wrong and as such judge the other...

hells gate reads Abandon hope all ye that enter here
shall we go?
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Will you walk with me?

Digital_Hell
Member
since 06-05-2006
Posts 193
Amidst black roses


18 posted 07-01-2006 07:59 PM       View Profile for Digital_Hell   Email Digital_Hell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Digital_Hell

Oh and please excuse if my responses are at strange times or seperated... The time differance is killer! At the time of this post it is 2am local... whereas the server reads it as about 8pm so...

hells gate reads Abandon hope all ye that enter here
shall we go?
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Will you walk with me?

kif kif
Member
since 06-01-2006
Posts 431
BCN


19 posted 07-01-2006 08:19 PM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

I'm sorry, like Digital Hell, I was using 'you' in the generic sense. No personal 'claws' intended. Purrr. (I've shrunk the image, clunk-click. Sorry.)


I believe you can 'know' something without experiencing it, talking about it would bring in the idea of a priori knowledge and empiricism. Logically, even the uninducted, or uneducated can work through an equation, and come to the right answer without being 'shown' by another, which steps to take. Our memories hold patterns, and all that.

A prediliction for writing dark or light poetry might just be the effects of a stronger induction. It doesn't mean to say that 'the other angle' is any less important, it just means the poet is looking in one direction.

You also talk of the competition between dark and light poetry being able to truthfully express...what? I just don't get it; like Wilde says;  "There is no such thing as a moral or immoral book. Books are well written, or badly written." I'd say, there's no such thing as the superiority between dark or light poetry. Poetry is well written, or badly written.

Your question; about writer intention. I think the intention sparks the writer to write it, but it can be received entirely differently.

It's how it's received what matters, for once you've put it out there, it doesn't just belong to you. Sometimes, the 'emotional result' is the opposite to what the writer intended. I'd say it's better to avoid writing for a desired 'emotional' result, and concentrate on the logical description of a given atmosphere. All to often, we see 'dark' poetry, or 'light' poetry falling into the familiar trap of 'end result'.

Which brings me to your statement "both sides unwilling... and as such, judge each other." I repeat, a poet's not bound by sides, and judgement rests on the beauty in all aspects of conciousness, light and dark.

[This message has been edited by kif kif (07-01-2006 09:10 PM).]

Digital_Hell
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Posts 193
Amidst black roses


20 posted 07-01-2006 09:15 PM       View Profile for Digital_Hell   Email Digital_Hell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Digital_Hell

Dont worry there was no offence taken.

Me a follower of empiricism? hardly likely. I was simply stating that without having experioenced something first hand you do not know exectly what it is like. Some things are best left alone, never to be experienced. Certain things are best left to priori knowledge. To experience then is to bring ruin upon yourself. I do not believe that you can only gain understanding of something by having experienced it, but rather that if you have experienced it you have a deeper understanding than from just priori knowledge.

"There is no such thing as a moral or immoral book. Books are well written, or badly written." Ah so long since ive heard someone quote Wilde. It gladdens my heart. But To followers of certain beliefs the above would be considered monstrous heresy... I feel personally a person should do what their heart tells them, that classifies me as "immoral" and by saying that are you implying that we as society should have no morals?

"there's no such thing as the superiority between dark or light poetry. Poetry is well written, or badly written." so you would say that you are completely neutral? That you do not believe one side can express itself better than the other?

As to what the writer intends, My intention when writing has never been to receive a certain result, but rather to provoke the reader into the deeper meaning on what he just read and its implications in his/her life. And pay heed "logical description" is not the only way in which to do things. Something that may appear random and confused wiht no logical chain of thought can as a whole come together beautifully.

"a poet's not bound by sides, and judgement rests on the beauty in all aspects of conciousness, light and dark." How can you make that statement? Surely by describing things in a certain light or by expressing certain emotions you are filed by modern society as either "dark" or "light". And by writing in the manner that you do, you thereby unwittingly choose a side... Whether we want to or not, by common consent, the manner,style and tone in which we express an idea, and the idea itself forces us into one of the classes.

The world will always judge. Even holy men judge.By Light of your ideas,beliefs,religion so callled morality or the lack thereof, your attitude and the way you act you will always be forced into a group.  

hells gate reads Abandon hope all ye that enter here
shall we go?
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Will you walk with me?
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


21 posted 07-01-2006 09:54 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"I'm sorry, like Digital Hell, I was using 'you' in the generic sense."


That's alright.
Sorry for being pecky.  I just saw too many threads in the past go down the drain because of unintentional insults between people.  So I thought it better for someone to say something early just in case.


Essorant
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Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


22 posted 07-01-2006 10:00 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant


Darkness is the unbrightest spark
And light is yet the brightest dark.

Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


23 posted 07-01-2006 11:50 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"Something that may appear random and confused wiht no logical chain of thought can as a whole come together beautifully."


May you give us an example?


kif kif
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Posts 431
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24 posted 07-02-2006 06:35 AM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

Digital Hell says "writing in the manner thay you do/you unwittingly choose a side". That's my point; a poet is not unwitting; just as a painter selects a tone to shade, he is aware of the contrast.

I believe the sequence to create Chaos is logical, therefore 'seemingly' random thoughts  are there for a reason.

I'm not neutral, I just hope to acknowledge negative capability, to allow the true essence in. I don't barricade myself up in sides.  

Your question about morality. I'm struggling with that one. What exactly is morality? "stand up for what's right, no matter what the risk" is dependent on what we believe to be right, and this is where society comes in. I think we invent a lot of morality...it's not really there, we just pretend it is. I think I'm implying that society doesn't understand morality.

Experience is a funny thing. It can trap you and free you. Some people base their whole lives on their own experiences, and some people base their lives on what they hope to experience. I think a good writer bases their life on finding truths behind these observations of action, reaction, inertion and hope.

"...judgement rests on the beauty of all aspects of conciousness, light and dark" I can make that statement, as it supports my argument here, somewhat aesthetically.

You said DH, "your attitude and the way you act will always be forced into a group." Interesting, for even the 'special' person that's independent from a previous/contemporary group will likely attract followers, perhaps it's the other way 'round? The way you act will force the group?

Yes, the world, ie; every person on it, always judges, but to judge the superior communicative properties of light v dark is impossible. It would be like judging whether the sea or the forest was better for the world!
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