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Passions in Poetry

Dark vs Light

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Ron
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Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


75 posted 07-20-2006 07:16 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
... but the fact that gravity exists means that its opposite anti gravity exists...
and it also doesnt mean that anti gravity exists right here on earth. But it certainly exists.

Einstein would probably disagree.

If you "bend" space/time, as happens in the presence of mass, the curvature results in this thing we call gravity. Falling towards the ground is essentially the same as "sliding" down the side of the curved space. The classical two-dimensional analogy is to put a bowling ball in the middle of a trampoline and watch everything on the now curved surface slide towards the ball. What happens if you "unbend" space/time? We then perceive a flattened surface as the absence of gravity. There's bent, there's not bent, but there's no such thing as anti-bent, and mathematically, there's no way to get there from here. Indeed, anti-gravity, when expressed as an equation, is exactly the same thing as traveling faster than C. Space and Time cease to have any physical meaning.

Of course, the General Theory of Relativity is, after all, still just a theory, so you might well still be right. In 91 years, however, no scientist has EVER found even one instance where Einstein's equations failed to reflect reality. Arguing with that kind of track record takes a lot of guts.

There is, without question, a symmetry to our Universe, just as you postulate. That doesn't mean, however, that symmetry is necessarily Universal. There exists countless phenomenon in physics that are unique and NOT symmetrically balanced, gravity being just one example.

quote:
Ah but then it wouldnt be godd would it? It would simply be the expected norm.

LOL. In my world, it's already the expected norm.

quote:
Without evil good would simply be the normal way to behave. There wouldnt be a distinction as there exists when evil is present.

Exactly. The semantic distinction disappears. Good, however, remains and remains unchanged.

quote:
Good decisions dont always lead to benefits.

Then, by definition, it wasn't a good decision.

quote:
Similarly bad decisions dont always lead to horrible consequences. Great things can come from making a bad decisions.

Then, by definition, it wasn't a bad decision.

Do you see, perhaps, the kind of trap into which you inevitably lead yourself when you argue semantics?

While Heisenberg allows for some ambiguity in cause and effect, I personally think the amount allowed is small. In other words, I generally ain't buying it. That doesn't mean tragedy doesn't exist, because clearly it does, but I think when we see a good decision lead to less than an optimal outcome, most of the time we are simply not looking past the short-term to see the bigger picture. I believe that doing the right thing is always the right thing to do. Indeed, ethics and morality are guidelines laid out to help us see what is "good" in the long run, when our own judgments are oft too skewed to make the right choices. There are, of course, whole branches of philosophy devoted to exploring ethical dilemmas.

quote:
Good decisions dont always lead to benefits. Sometimes doing the right thing leads to pain and suffering aswell.

I found this statement particularly interesting, because I think it demonstrates a prejudice that I suspect runs contrary to much of what else you have said in this thread. You are assuming, in this statement, that "pain and suffering" don't constitute a benefit? By extension, then, you are suggesting that benefits are only those things which avoid pain and suffering?

Personally, I don't believe pain, in and of itself, is evil or even bad. I believe that because, in small part, pain is transitory and lasts but a brief time, and in large part, pain is a self-regulatory mechanism that "should" ultimately lead to benefit. Unfortunately, that "should" doesn't always happen. Pain only becomes "bad" when people turn around and continue doing the same thing that caused their pain, expecting a different outcome the next time. Sadly, we see that all too often in the world.

Doing the "right thing" is no guarantee that pain will be avoided. On the contrary, the right thing is very often marked by self-sacrifice and pain. Personally, I think doing the right thing ultimately leads to growth, which is far more beneficial, far more good, than simply trying to avoid pain and suffering.


Digital_Hell
Member
since 06-05-2006
Posts 193
Amidst black roses


76 posted 07-24-2006 03:58 PM       View Profile for Digital_Hell   Email Digital_Hell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Digital_Hell

"Exactly. The semantic distinction disappears. Good, however, remains and remains unchanged."
Ah but then it isnt good is it? Then it simply is. Good would be doing some act of charitable and loving gentle nature to your fellow man. Stepping outside of prejudice and loving him as a brother. However if that is all there is, then its no longer good is it?

"Then, by definition, it wasn't a good decision." Telling the truth in a situation can lead to great pain and trouble for you. But it would be a good descision in keeping with moral standards and personal beliefs yes? Althoughn it might have  an adverse effect in your life it would be a good descision wouldnt you say?

"Then, by definition, it wasn't a bad decision." Again you can decide to end a relationship etc. that leads to great pain and so forth but leaves you as a better happier person.

"I found this statement particularly interesting, because I think it demonstrates a prejudice that I suspect runs contrary to much of what else you have said in this thread. You are assuming, in this statement, that "pain and suffering" don't constitute a benefit? By extension, then, you are suggesting that benefits are only those things which avoid pain and suffering?"
NO!!!!! not at all. That is definately not what i am saying. What i say is that pain and suffering on their own are not good or bad. neither detrimenatal nor benificial. It depends on how we handle them. Pain that shatters the body, breaks the spirit and destroys the mind is of no use. But pain that teaches you a needed lesson and makes you a better person is good. So i would agree with you that it is neither good or evil, but it should noy simply be accepted. If possible it should be avoided.

The reason for that is that it can become addictive as an easy release for much greater  pain and suffering. Take the case of cutting, You start with a simple small cut to ease your mind. it gets better and better. Eventuallyu you need to cut more often and deeper for it. And it doesnt solve the problem. This kind of pain is obsessive and bad.

"than simply trying to avoid pain and suffering." some pain and suffering should be avoided. My best friend called me before he commited suicide. Is the pain and suffering i went though good and usefull? No never. I will never let another friend as close as we were, is that a benefit? So while i definately do not say we should avoid pain and suffering i do say it should be avoided if possible. Pain  is a drug, you get addicted to it, high on it, it takes over your life. You end up living by the words (Forgive a misquote) Castigo corpus meum: PAIN IS GOOD.

And that destroys your life. Doing the right thing might lead to growth, but in the end it depends on the character in question.  

hells gate reads Abandon hope all ye that enter here
shall we go?
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Will you walk with me?

Ron
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since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
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77 posted 07-24-2006 08:19 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

You're still just arguing semantics. Wipe out the English language and, by your logic, there again would be no such thing as Good?

You're conflating the word with the concept for which it stands.
Digital_Hell
Member
since 06-05-2006
Posts 193
Amidst black roses


78 posted 07-30-2006 10:20 AM       View Profile for Digital_Hell   Email Digital_Hell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Digital_Hell

Not semantics no. Im saying if evil itself, the act of wrongdoing. Of sin, immorality. call it what you want didnt exist, then an act could not be good as it would simply be all there was. If you removed "evil" as all the wrong, immoral, decadent, sinfull etc... Things that humanity can do to another from existance, then good as we see it does not exist does it? We see something as good because we are use to people being cruel, heartless cold. Therefore kindness etc is "Good".

hells gate reads Abandon hope all ye that enter here
shall we go?
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Will you walk with me?

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


79 posted 07-30-2006 10:34 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"it would simply be all there was."

Good and evil are the only things that exist in the universe?
Digital_Hell
Member
since 06-05-2006
Posts 193
Amidst black roses


80 posted 07-30-2006 03:34 PM       View Profile for Digital_Hell   Email Digital_Hell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Digital_Hell

Most acts can be bundled into wha twe have defined as "good" Or "evil" so yes from our perception an action or belief can be broken down into that basic idea. Although i must add that i dont agree that they are all there are.

hells gate reads Abandon hope all ye that enter here
shall we go?
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Will you walk with me?

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


81 posted 07-30-2006 08:25 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I'm confused at what you are trying to say.
Good is basically doing what is better.  You don't need to know you are doing better in order to do better at all.  For example, someone may not know spinach is generally a good and healthy part of a diet because it tastes terrible.  Not knowing it is a healthy food or believing it is not because one doesn't like the taste of it, doesn't remove the truth though that it is still good and healthy for you to eat.  Likewise if all foods that were bad and unhealthy were no longer around , such foods that are good won't cease being good anymore.  Therefore good doesn't cease to be present just because evil is absent nor because one doesn't know the difference.

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


82 posted 07-30-2006 09:30 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

On further thought perhaps it is wiser to say good is basically doing well instead of doing better.  

"Better" implies something in comparision with something that is worse, which I think may be good too, but not neccessary to be good.  You could still eat healthy and live healthy if somehow there were no possibility not to eat healthy and live healthy.  

Kitherion
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since 08-01-2006
Posts 179
Johannesburg


83 posted 08-01-2006 03:45 AM       View Profile for Kitherion   Email Kitherion   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kitherion

"Beware you who seek first an final principles, for you tramp down the garden of an angry god." The so-called darkness of poetry does not exist. It is mearly people trying to express themelves behind a veil of self-apathy.

No ofence is meant to all those who write, but honestly who has heard of such a thing as "Dark" poetry...

Within the path of the Goddess I walk, she guides my every step.. into the oblivion called life.

Kitherion
Member
since 08-01-2006
Posts 179
Johannesburg


84 posted 08-01-2006 03:48 AM       View Profile for Kitherion   Email Kitherion   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kitherion

The so called advent of this dark poetry, does not exist. All it depends on is the facade that the writer - persay - develops.

Within the path of the Goddess I walk, she guides my every step.. into the oblivion called life.

Digital_Hell
Member
since 06-05-2006
Posts 193
Amidst black roses


85 posted 08-01-2006 12:50 PM       View Profile for Digital_Hell   Email Digital_Hell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Digital_Hell

How amusing... i have a poem here written by Kitherion. Its rather um "dark"...

hells gate reads Abandon hope all ye that enter here
shall we go?
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Will you walk with me?

Digital_Hell
Member
since 06-05-2006
Posts 193
Amidst black roses


86 posted 08-01-2006 12:52 PM       View Profile for Digital_Hell   Email Digital_Hell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Digital_Hell

   here is the poem

[Edit - Sorry, but if you didn't write it, you can't post it. Feel free, however, to provide a link to any poem in the forums. Ron]

quote:
It is mearly people trying to express themelves behind a veil of self-apathy.

Welcome to this club...


hells gate reads Abandon hope all ye that enter here
shall we go?
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Will you walk with me?


[This message has been edited by Ron (08-01-2006 02:01 PM).]

Kitherion
Member
since 08-01-2006
Posts 179
Johannesburg


87 posted 08-02-2006 03:37 AM       View Profile for Kitherion   Email Kitherion   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kitherion

Amusing is it Digital? If you actually look at the contents of the poem, you will realise that it is actually about a journey from the darkeness wihin human nature to a lasting and hopefull end... in the poems case death (I realise that this is considered dark) but honestly that is in youir opinion.

Blessings Digital.

Within the path of the Goddess I walk, she guides my every step.. into the oblivion called life.

Slater1987
New Member
since 08-02-2006
Posts 2


88 posted 08-02-2006 03:43 AM       View Profile for Slater1987   Email Slater1987   Edit/Delete Message     View IP for Slater1987

the message within us all is not to consider
the fact if we are dark or light but to consider who is , why must we subject ourselves to thinking poorly and unjustly to our own existence. damm those around us and consider their darkness
Digital_Hell
Member
since 06-05-2006
Posts 193
Amidst black roses


89 posted 08-02-2006 09:16 AM       View Profile for Digital_Hell   Email Digital_Hell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Digital_Hell

Yes i find it amusing.

quote:
you will realise that it is actually about a journey from the darkeness wihin human nature to a lasting and hopefull end...

Really? i find that interesting. Here is the last stanza of your poem quoted. Please explain to me how this is a hopefull end

quote:
Your hollow touch chills my bones,
Your desolation,
Consumes my mind,
My screams fill the recess
And echo in my ears…

That is the hopefull end?

quote:
why must we subject ourselves to thinking poorly and unjustly to our own existence. damm those around us and consider their darkness
If you would read the rest of the thread you would see that what started out as an debate on if light or dark is better has turned into a discussion on morals and semantics. And the nature of good and evil, and how we determine how we place acts in these classes. What morals are, if they are finite and resolute.

quote:
You could still eat healthy and live healthy if somehow there were no possibility not to eat healthy and live healthy.  
But this is what i am saying Essorant, If there is no bad. Then the good isnt really good anymore now is it? You cant eat unhealthily if healthy food doesnt exist now can you? The food might not be ideal for consumption but if its all that exists then it is not unhealthy is it? Then it is simply what is the accepted norm.

hells gate reads Abandon hope all ye that enter here
shall we go?
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Will you walk with me?
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


90 posted 08-02-2006 11:53 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

That is true.  If the only food that existed were a greasy hamburger from McDonalds and the only drink Pepsi, those would be not just good foods, but the best!
Digital_Hell
Member
since 06-05-2006
Posts 193
Amidst black roses


91 posted 08-02-2006 03:44 PM       View Profile for Digital_Hell   Email Digital_Hell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Digital_Hell

Exactly. Now take the same principal with good and evil. Then you see why i said that without the one, the other does not exist in its own right.

hells gate reads Abandon hope all ye that enter here
shall we go?
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Will you walk with me?

[This message has been edited by Digital_Hell (08-02-2006 04:21 PM).]

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


92 posted 08-02-2006 04:06 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Exactly. Now take the same principal with good and evil. Then you see why i said that without the one, the other does not exist in its own right.

LOL. If you think about that for even a moment, I'm sure you'll see the flaw in your logic.

The analogy Essorant presents, of course, suggests no such thing. Instead, it says that if all good were eliminated, then some parts of evil (McDonald's) would start to seem good to us. The analogy essentially addresses the relativity of good and evil, and certainly not any imagined dependency of one on the other.

Let's see if I'm still following your semantic arguments? Everything, you claimed, is either good or evil. If evil didn't exist, you said, then good could not exist either. Ergo, with the elimination of evil and the subsequent elimination of good, then clearly nothing could exist. That's certainly an interesting path to nihilism.


Kitherion
Member
since 08-01-2006
Posts 179
Johannesburg


93 posted 08-03-2006 02:50 AM       View Profile for Kitherion   Email Kitherion   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kitherion

Hey Digital:

I agree completly with you. But unfortunatly if you actually read what I said, the poem was about death but not the darkness that it is normal associated with.

I do actually see the flaw that Ron speaks about, but it isn't as obvious as he claims it to be.

Blessing

Within the path of the Goddess I walk, she guides my every step.. into the oblivion called life.

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