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Dimensions

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LeeJ
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0 posted 06-30-2006 07:30 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

I have been following the discussion on Reb's Thread "Purpose" between Stephanos, Essorant & Kif Kif, and a very interesting topic to boot.  

I won't pretend to understand all of what your bringing to the table, also, I don't want to interrupt a perfectly interesting subject, breaking up trains of thought patterns you are now communicating,  but wanted to follow up with a question of dimensions and how other dimensions may fall into this subject matter of "Purpose", nature, God, morality, evil, predetermination etc...religions and concepts of God and Einstein's theroies?  

Please note, I am not challenging, but would like to open a discussion on the matter of dimensions as I feel it aptly falls into the topic of purpose

Any thoughts on this?

and by the way
Stephanos, this was brilliant

-Since we are "living" the memory, how can we be assurred that this muddle is only a memory and not the way things have always been, and must always be?  Someone who is "awake" would have to have told us?  

-How do we know we'll ever get back to that which we remember?  How do we avoid falling into the fatalism of believing that reality resides in the past, and that the future will only bring us increasingly distorted memory?

-If there is a spiritual "truth" or "right" or "reality", then why and upon what authority does it stand?




[This message has been edited by LeeJ (06-30-2006 08:20 AM).]

Stephanos
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1 posted 06-30-2006 03:12 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Another open-ended and ambiguous metaphysical thread?  What are you trying to do, make me lose my job??





Stephen.
Essorant
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2 posted 06-30-2006 07:56 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

At least no one can go off-topic in a thread like this.  "Dimensions" may accomodate just about anything and everything  
kif kif
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3 posted 07-01-2006 07:59 AM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

Dimensions, as in 'the number of degrees of freedom available for movement in a space.'

Dimensions; as in 'a dynamic force is being sent forth, (who writes this stuff?) through the ages, framing all things that constitute and inhabit the universe.'

(further) A dimension concieved as a subtle region of space/conciousness beyond, but permeating the universe and inhabited by evolving spirit-life beings in different stages of conciousness.'

I got that from a quick perusal of google. It seems that many religions have a little of that doctrine at their core...

Would that not negate the idea of free will?

Although believing in angels shaping our destiny is not far off the concept of Ye Gods, or the Deities of Eastern religions, such as Hinduism.

I'll have to know where your carriage is rolling, LeeJ, before I can link up mine, for it's a big train!

[This message has been edited by kif kif (07-01-2006 08:33 AM).]

Essorant
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4 posted 07-03-2006 12:59 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Do you think there was/is a first dimension to all things?  
LeeJ
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5 posted 07-05-2006 10:28 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ



You've all sparked some amuzement here

I'm talking about other dimensions...and perhaps the existance of those that we cannot sense, know they exist, when in fact they parallal our existances....?????  If they exist, and I'm convinced they do, perhaps that would give a whole new meaning to our purpose, if we consciously were aware of them....

Certainly would explain a lot of paranormal that humans have reported seeing...

Essorant
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6 posted 07-14-2006 12:21 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant


Dimension or dementia, that is the question.
LeeJ
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7 posted 07-14-2006 07:00 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

who, you, me, or both?  

sometimes, Lady, I really do wonder about myself??? hehehhehe

Seriously, what do you believe was the very 1st dimension?

Perhaps a Spiritual world?
Essorant
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8 posted 07-17-2006 06:43 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"sometimes, Lady, I really do wonder about myself??? hehehhehe"

Being a lady would be a new dimension/dementia to me  
LeeJ
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9 posted 07-18-2006 08:33 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

so your a man?

OMG,   I am so sorry, please forgive my less then goofy error, I stand corrected...

can we still be friends?  
Essorant
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10 posted 07-18-2006 05:34 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

No problem. I consider being a man so close to being a woman, and vice-versa, that it doesn't make that much difference to me.
Stephanos
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11 posted 07-18-2006 06:15 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Surely you don't believe that there are not significant differences between men and women?


There is such a thing as "Gender Confusion".
The differences aren't always razor clear ... just like property lines may not always be clear.  But they are there nonetheless.

Stephen.
Essorant
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12 posted 07-18-2006 06:43 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Using different shampoos, different clothes, different colours, etc, don't really strike me as signifigant in a deep way.  Even our natural physical differences, compared to our whole beings and abilities, and things we share in common seem minor.  In the end they seem like comparing circles with ovals.  It would be different to be a woman, but I don't think it would be that different.

LeeJ
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13 posted 07-19-2006 06:48 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

and things we share in common seem minor.  In the end they seem like comparing circles with ovals.  It would be different to be a woman, but I don't think it would be that different.


Essorant:  oh, you don't think it would be that different, try being married to a man twice your size in height and weight, with an explosive temper and a bad bad case of insecurity...hehehehhe, just finding the humor...

this would be an amazing topic for another thread...

I tend to agree with you, in some ways, meaning, perhaps male and female personalities are somewhat conditioning? But there are major differences....now, did you say ovals or ovaries?  

Stephanoes...Gender Confusion?  Gottcha, but what about just plain confused most of the time...like me?  

Thanks to both of you


Would anyone like to elaborate on the theory of dimensions and what they think, believe on the subject?

OK, I'll start...

I believe there are many other dimensions...parallel to ours, and ocassionally something happens, and other entities cross over, (spirits which are seen)
or unexplained entities...
anyone care to add or completely throw the cabashes to this idea?
kif kif
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14 posted 07-19-2006 09:06 AM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

Essorant; a brilliant similie to describe what I think. There's no real difference between man and woman...yes, our bodies have different functions, but mentally we all operate as 'human', not 'male' or 'female'. The general idea's been mixed up, because as humans, we tend to only understand things on 'face value'.  As a result, we've trained ourselves to believe  that only women can understand the "female aspect", and vice versa.
Stephen, I think gender confusion's a construct of that.

I'm wondering about your 'property lines' comment. What do you mean? That's mine and not yours? Shiver...

LeeJ, sorry for getting off-track, but I really don't have a clue about Dimensions! I've heard of Doppleganger myths, and parallel universes, but I've not formed any thoughts, really. Excuse me for saying this (kids, don't try this at home), but I used to take LSD. One time, I was sitting on a bank of a river at night. It was pitch black, and as I was looking towards the sound of rushing water, I began to see and hear a herd of some sort, crashing past the commotion of a cat-like creature, almost the same size as them. I knew instinctively that this was not 'real-time', but I was certain it was a window to the past. It was like the creatures were made of dirty, fluid glass, once stained, but now sepia-toned. Later, I wondered if it was just my penchant for watching wildlife programmes, yet these creatures were not like anything natural around today, although when I experienced them, they seemed completely natural for the time.

Of course, you all cry "but you were tripping-duh!". Perhaps there's things we can never explain, but we can experience, if we put our minds to it. I've always been too lazy in the past to 'do it for real'...I tended to skip the meditation and go right for the effects...and that's how to get lost! Perhaps if I meditated for years on that bank instead of taking a chemical there one night, I would have a proper answer for what I 'saw'.

[This message has been edited by kif kif (07-19-2006 09:38 AM).]

LeeJ
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15 posted 07-19-2006 10:22 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

well, my thoughts on LSD, if it makes you feel any better, if the government tested on humans for years, then of course, there must have been something to it, and to your experience with it.
http://www.eyepod.org/CIA-LSD-DOE.html

Remember the Philadelphia Experiment? http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq21-1.htm

As far as flying saucers; if they do exisit, I'm thinking there would have to be other dimensions that they come from, because they would have to fly faster then the speed of light to arrive at another solar system, which would disintigrate them?  

I believe that a lot of flying saucers that were sighted by people over the past 40 years, and before, may have been us or other countries, testing out top secret air craft?  Who knows...

But positivily, do believe in other dimensions...would make more sense...yanno?  And also give me a thought as to where heaven is...

thanks so much Kif kif
kif kif
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16 posted 07-19-2006 01:05 PM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

I can see the logic in your speed of light theory. I've never seen a a flying saucer, but I can believe they exist, although, after just reading your links, perhaps the gov. has been spiking the water around 'those parts' where the most sightings are reported?

I've been aware that chemical experiments take place, but I'd be shocked if proof came out that it happened to unwitting citizens...yet, the similarities to medicated people in intitutions can't be missed.

Incidentally, the psychoactive ingredients in LSD only 'happened' after the 1st atomic bomb. Before that, Hoffman had tried the combination, to no effect. Could it be the antidote...peace, 'man!?!

(Of course, an antidote in the wrong hands just swells the poison.)
Stephanos
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17 posted 07-20-2006 12:06 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

kif:
quote:
There's no real difference between man and woman...yes, our bodies have different functions, but mentally we all operate as 'human', not 'male' or 'female'

Um, mentally we operate as "human" AND "male and female".  Psychology recognizes differences way beyond physicality.  Of course you could argue that we've just become socially preconditioned.  But that argument doesn't change the differences, nor does it answer the question of whether such conditioning is proper or not.  But also, I believe much of our differences, including psychological, is part of our biology, not merely our upbringing.

kif:
quote:
I'm wondering about your 'property lines' comment. What do you mean? That's mine and not yours? Shiver...


Kif, I have no problem with boundaries, as such.  Without them you wouldn't even be "You".  dissolution into everything (or nothing) is something I think is deplorable.  Don't let the recollection of things like greed and oppression ruin my metaphor for you.  I'll bet you're for personal property too, if it came down to how you live.  Personal property does not prevent mutual sharing, blessing, helping.  But after being at someone else's farm, it's almost a pleasant and proper thing to be a little "homesick".  Gender is like that.  Properly relating to your gender is like being at home.    


Actually, I believe that gender difference is integral to who we are, by divine fiat.  "Male and Female he created them".  Although men and women share a common humanity, and thus many many commonalities, there is also much uniqueness that the sexes don't really share.


I think there is error in both directions.  When we forget our common humanity, we alienate the sexes and create division in the forms of both chauvinism and extreme feminism.  But when we forget the uniqueness and respective roles of gender, we create functional confusion, and a loss of mystique and romance.  Androgyny would be such a bore!    


And Essorant, the differences in men and women go deeper that than the personal-hygiene products we use.  If you were married, I'll bet you would know that there's much more to it than that.        


Of course there is a wonderful freedom and overlap, since we can learn and emulate across gender lines.  As long as we don't forget that our differences were intended for a reason.  And while our differences may not be absolute, so as to alienate us from one another, neither are they so unimportant as to be called trifles.


Manhood and Womanhood should be celebrated for their respective differences as well.  That's the heart of romance.


LeeJ,

Sorry for keeping this going off track.  But I guess gender is a kind of "dimension".  Stretching here ...


Stephen.
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18 posted 07-20-2006 01:03 PM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

mmm, nature v's nurture, Stephen. I agree, androgyny would be boring, but I'm saying that all humans have the capacity to think with a 'male' and 'female' aspect. It wouldn't ruin the mystique if we all remembered we're individuals.

I agree, there's capacity for error in both directions, that's what happens when extremes are compared, but I believe the inherent differences between men and women are physical, not mental.  Of course, we are all mentally unique too, but as humans, we can all mentally operate on the same level.

Your gender similie is very male...about domain, but it's clear what you mean. There's comfort in the familiar, yet that comfort can turn to laziness, just as an effort to get in touch with 'the other side' can result in mental and physical burn-out.

As for your property lines comment; yes, I've spent some time with squatters/travellers, and a lack of boundaries eventually equates to a lack of respect, because over-tolerance begets hangers on and the disturbed. Not everybody is virtuous with opportunity. Again, the point must be made that intolerance, and property holding in the extreme is just as wrong as allowing someone to walk all over you.

It's interesting that your spectrum of light analogy keeps popping up...when good goes wrong.

Dimensions indeed.

XOx Uriah xOX
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19 posted 07-20-2006 02:03 PM       View Profile for XOx Uriah xOX   Email XOx Uriah xOX   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for XOx Uriah xOX

Ah  Dimensions.   There are as many as can be envisioned.  Will further directions of measurement bring you closer to the center?
Like measuring your shadow...with your foot, and amazed at how it never ends.  One would understand more clearly if instead of focusing on other layers of transient images, he looked toward the substratum that is common to them all.   The "screen" of reality.
::smiles::   But...Phenomena LOVE phenomenon.
Which is as it should be.   Enjoy
LeeJ
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20 posted 07-20-2006 02:30 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Kif Kif & Stephen

no, no, no, don't fret at all about going off subject, as your hypothesis makes for a  very interesting discussion, not to mention, might very well be related to the subject...to me, anyway.  

Stephen
I think there is error in both directions.  When we forget our common humanity, we alienate the sexes and create division in the forms of both chauvinism and extreme feminism.  But when we forget the uniqueness and respective roles of gender, we create functional confusion, and a loss of mystique and romance.  Androgyny would be such a bore!  

smiling...

Amen, yanno, we are all made with a balance of both negative positive energy as well? Certainly, then, you've heard of anima, and animus?

Kif Kif...
(further) A dimension concieved as a subtle region of space/conciousness beyond, but permeating the universe and inhabited by evolving spirit-life beings in different stages of conciousness.'

I'm not stating your wrong, there is to me, much to what you've stated, but, I’m simply building on your statement.  

I'm not actually thinking of other dimensions as beyond (per say, beyond our universe, although there may very well be), but actually right here parallel to ours...to me, walking right beside you, yanno?  its intriguing to speculate just how many there might be?

Take the Philadelphia Experiment, even though its a terrible thought, eye witnesses that were involved in the experiment, aboard the ship, when brought back, some were badly burned, some never returned, some, were actually melted half way into the ship...a really grusome picture, I know, but still on a scientific level, very interesting. Oh, and those who were on that ship, had no idea what was going to happen, they just knew they'd be a part of an experiement, the navy was experiementing with.

I believe back in the 40's when the CIA started their LSD experiments, it was linked to the manchurian candidate experiements...they had hoped to create a being void of human emotion?  It was extremely funded...that's how Timothy Leary got his start....

The use of drugs by secret agents had been in part a myth, but in the early 40's the first effort of experiements, on the part of an American espionage organization, to modify human behavior through chemicals, did in fact, take place.  

I believe they also were thought to hope for using it for interrogation purposes, as well as a weapon.

I don't know if the participants were unwilling or not or perhaps a little of both, b/c I've read articles on the subject that suggested they wanted to put it in a punch for unknowing participants, to monitor the effects.  Was it done?  Who knows...

I agree, there's capacity for error in both directions, that's what happens when extremes are compared, but I believe the inherent differences between men and women are physical, not mental.  Of course, we are all mentally unique too, but as humans, we can all mentally operate on the same level, but then consider geniuses, or idiot suvance...where are they, mentally?  Remember, way back they were thought to be mentally impaired...but in fact, I wonder?

And all this ties in with dimensional theory, even your discussions of men and women being the same.  

and consider if you will, where loss of soul comes into play, (both spiritually, and scientifically) clinical depression...
mental fatique, where personality falls apart? A paralysis of thought and will.  Perhaps an error? Imagination is to verbally exprss the personality, and when that is lost, surpressed, there is lack of courage, ambition...where to, does that person go?

Tao belief for example
chance and conscious represent three features of one manifestation of the cosmic creative force. It is the same 'implicate order' (Bohm) of quantum non-locality as expressed for example in the transactional interpretation and in such ideas as morphic resonance (Sheldrake).

there is something to this, and to me, related to God's greatness...all perhaps are one, related, and most of all, a significant of purpose, without one, there would not be the other?  Think of the Trinity....which is one of the hardest concepts to absorb, let alone define?

Any thoughts?

Carl Jung
The uncanny coincidence of events (synchronicity) which heraled Jung's split from Freud emphasizes a way in which seemingly accidental phenomena of nature can become "gives positive support from the world around us" therefore, God's positive achievement, yet, even more so, He watches us, knows all and sees all....perhaps from another dimention.

If that were the case, then going further, there could be levels of dimensions, as well, perhaps givning an interritation for heaven and hell being two of them?  As in levels of perhaps some unknown concsiensness?

Consider, if you will, the perseption of animals, which we know nothing about..nor can see that perseption or be aware of it with any of our own senses, yet, it exists?
Pretty interesting stuff, and therein lies my belief in God...not from a Bible that men wrote, but from a science/religion aspect that to me, are so closely related it's uncanny and unfathomable to human beings.  We just don't have the stuff to perceive it, yet?

Yeah, I know, pretty heavy metal...I bet your next question is....
Lee J. are you on drugs?????

This stuff fasinates me.

Oh another thing, you know how a dog will circle and circle until they lay down.  Well, that has been passed onto them from the beginning of time, from the pack, when they would lay down so against the breeze, so they could detect oncoming danger...this was passed down through their genes, which to me, would then explain our concept of de javu in humans, yes?

many thanks


  

  


[This message has been edited by LeeJ (07-20-2006 03:11 PM).]

LeeJ
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21 posted 07-20-2006 03:01 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Uriah
hello
am I to understand your referring to a Matrix as the essense, and if so wouldn't that be another dimension?

XOx Uriah xOX
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22 posted 07-21-2006 12:32 AM       View Profile for XOx Uriah xOX   Email XOx Uriah xOX   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for XOx Uriah xOX

I am not a great talker and most of what I say often seems to be jibberish to the listener, but I will attempt to explain...
Lets use string theory as an example...
In string theory you have the dimensions stacked upon each other.   It begins with the "concept" of dimension 0.   LOL   Doesn't it all begin with a concept?    Anyway....   Dimension 0 is the starting point.    We have not gotten to the dimensions of "objects" or "duration" yet, so dimension 0 cannot be measured.   Can something with no dimensions be called a dimension?    So....we now have to form another "concept"...another "point" and draw a line from dimension 0 to dimension 1 and then we continue from there.   By the time we reach the 10th dimension we are back to a single point in which all things appear.  They seem to have ran out of places to go.   All possibilities are contained within the 10th dimension.     LOL   You could have stayed at dimension 0, where it all originated as a concept.
I am suggesting that the idea of ANY dimension is only an idea formed by that which "thinks" itself to be seperate from its point of origin.
And that in actuality there is only one point which is not an "object" that can be measured nor is it reliant upon time and cannot be measured in duration.  All things exist within it and there is nothing seperate from it to do the measuring.   So....a dimension to....who?
You already know that you are not just a "body" that "appears" within this point of origin.   You know that you are not just an "object".
Objects are "seen".    You even see the object you call "you".     How can something that is SEEN be the thing that is SEEING?   Can a thing "perceived" be that which is perceiving?    ridiculous.    
So....since all possibilities appear within the One Point....find that point.    Find what and where you are.    LOL      
But....you will not discover the center of the ripples by following the extension of ripples.    Go back to the 1st concept....   Then remove it.
Or....    Don't.     LOL       No matter.
LeeJ
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23 posted 07-21-2006 10:16 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

quote:
(I am not a great talker and most of what I say often seems to be jibberish to the listener, but I will attempt to explain...


That’s b/c your very deep, and you loose people, as they cannot grasp what your trying to articulate, and sometimes, you probably are so filled up with what your trying to articulate, you can’t find the words to do so in laymen’s terms, but you know it’s there, being a  part of you?  so you’ve found it necessary to keep quiet rather then try to participate.  Your capacity for an intellectual conversation, probably goes beyond the IQ of some people and they tire of listening?  

quote:
Lets use string theory as an example...
In string theory you have the dimensions stacked upon each other.   It begins with the "concept" of dimension 0.   LOL   Doesn't it all begin with a concept?
    

I don’t know?  Does everything have to be numbered or measured?

quote:
Anyway....   Dimension 0 is the starting point.    We have not gotten to the dimensions of "objects" or "duration" yet, so dimension 0 cannot be measured.   Can something with no dimensions be called a dimension?
   Perhaps there is something far beyond our comprehension, that does exist that we’re not aware of…????  Perhaps words are our only for of comprehensions?  But I follow you…

quote:
So....we now have to form another "concept"...another "point" and draw a line from dimension 0 to dimension 1 and then we continue from there.   By the time we reach the 10th dimension we are back to a single point in which all things appear.
  Yes, and can you begin to imagine what is in number 2, 3 and so forth…considering each higher number is a higher intelligence or state of being?  We’re probably 0…folding arms across chest and pounting.

quote:
They seem to have ran out of places to go.   All possibilities are contained within the 10th dimension.     LOL   You could have stayed at dimension 0, where it all originated as a concept.


What if it all originated at the 10th and we’re the debris from what’s left over????   Not trying to make fun of you, these are just things I think about..

quote:
I am suggesting that the idea of ANY dimension is only an idea formed by that which "thinks" itself to be seperate from its point of origin.

And that in actuality there is only one point which is not an "object" that can be measured nor is it reliant upon time and cannot be measured in duration.  All things exist within it and there is nothing seperate from it to do the measuring.[/QUOTE]

So....a dimension to....who?  A dimension to us, perhaps the other dimensions, simply space with no concept of time, measurements or the need to comprehend anything, as all is simply known?


quote:
You already know that you are not just a "body" that "appears" within this point of origin.   You know that you are not just an "object".
Objects are "seen".  

You even see the object you call "you".     How can something that is SEEN be the thing that is SEEING?   Can a thing "perceived" be that which is perceiving?    ridiculous.

    
quote:
So....since all possibilities appear within the One Point....find that point.    Find what and where you are.    LOL
  I see your point (just kidding)  so if that be the case, what we see as reality?  
    


quote:
But....you will not discover the center of the ripples by following the extension of ripples.    Go back to the 1st concept....   Then remove it.
Or....    Don't.     LOL       No matter.


Your right, and not?  Don’t mean to be contradictive, but what if your both? What if we’re in-between?
SO BY THE FIRST CONCEPT WE FIND ?

  Uriah, enter in conversation any time…I don’t pretend to understand all of what you say, and it is not because you cannot relay your ideas, it's due to my inability to comprehend,  but am thankful you’ve sparked the curiosity to research...

and by the way, I think your a great talker...(wink)

[This message has been edited by LeeJ (07-21-2006 11:04 AM).]

Ron
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Lee, it would be extremely helpful to everyone, I think, if you took just a few minutes to learn how to use the Quote code when trying to quote another poster. The way you're doing it, we have to read through everything, even if we just read the post you're quoting, or we don't know where you stop quoting and start responding. By visually separating quote from reply, we can all read your posts much more easily and much more quickly.

Thanks ...  

quote:
To reference something something specific that someone has posted, just cut and paste the applicable verbage and enclose it as shown below.

[QUOTE]Ask not what your country can do for you....
ask what you can do for your country.[/QUOTE]

 
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