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Passions in Poetry

How To Lose

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kif kif
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since 06-01-2006
Posts 431
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0 posted 06-24-2006 05:59 PM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

It's all to do
with what courage really is.
How are you
in the face of another fist?
Can you feel
what will seal true acceptance
which is humbleness?
Or will you prove
it's no use, and slip into
a weak disgrace, and turn away?

For morals are remembered things
to understand equality,
stand up for what you truly feel
no matter what the risk.

(I understand
life is a contradiction.
Respect the many scans
to win the hand.)

[This message has been edited by kif kif (06-24-2006 07:00 PM).]

Digital_Hell
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since 06-05-2006
Posts 193
Amidst black roses


1 posted 07-31-2006 03:08 PM       View Profile for Digital_Hell   Email Digital_Hell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Digital_Hell

quote:
For morals are remembered things
to understand equality,
stand up for what you truly feel
no matter what the risk.
Stand up for what we trully feel? or stand up for what is right even if we are standing alone? And do you speak of courage, or convivtion in our own beliefs?

hells gate reads Abandon hope all ye that enter here
shall we go?
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Will you walk with me?

kif kif
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since 06-01-2006
Posts 431
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2 posted 07-31-2006 03:56 PM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

Hopefully, what 'you' feel will be standing up for what you believe is right! Courage could be admitting that the belief-system may be wrong, but that's still conviction in your beliefs.

"how are you in the face of another fist" sums it up-courage for me would be to humbly carry on with what I believe in, even if I am being beaten down. I wrote this as a reply to a question from a friend "what is moral courage?" More importantly, what are morals? I think they can be personal constructs, as well as social constructs.

Standing alone can be cool.

"I am the cat who walks by herself, for some, too far out to see." I think you can see me though, Digital.

[This message has been edited by kif kif (07-31-2006 06:07 PM).]

Digital_Hell
Member
since 06-05-2006
Posts 193
Amidst black roses


3 posted 08-01-2006 01:11 PM       View Profile for Digital_Hell   Email Digital_Hell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Digital_Hell

quote:
Courage could be admitting that the belief-system may be wrong, but that's still conviction in your beliefs.

Ah but then you start to reach the point of blind faith? where you refuse to change what you believe in and that is dangerous.

I would say courage is doing what you must no matter if you are scared or alone.

quote:
Standing alone can be cool.

"I am the cat who walks by herself, for some, too far out to see."
Yes it can be very cool. but we should be carefull for what we are willing to stand alone.

As for seeing, its just a matter of having an open mind and being willing to



hells gate reads Abandon hope all ye that enter here
shall we go?
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Will you walk with me?
kif kif
Member
since 06-01-2006
Posts 431
BCN


4 posted 08-01-2006 02:02 PM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

I would say that blind faith would be to accept  a belief-system without question.

And yes, sometimes, standing alone means that nobody else thinks we're right, and sometimes, we're not right!

The subject of morals is a murky one. One man's moral is another man's frippery, but there are Virtues that are unchanging, infinite, and ultimitely right, that we should adhere to, no matter what the immediate consequence. That to me, is living couragously.
Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


5 posted 08-01-2006 02:30 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"but there are Virtues that are unchanging"

I hope you will name a few.

I don't know anything that doesn't change in one way or another.

Digital_Hell
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since 06-05-2006
Posts 193
Amidst black roses


6 posted 08-01-2006 03:12 PM       View Profile for Digital_Hell   Email Digital_Hell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Digital_Hell

quote:
but there are Virtues that are unchanging, infinite, and ultimitely right
Could you please say what these are? In all i have encountered i have yet to find a moral that cant change or shift depending on circumstances

hells gate reads Abandon hope all ye that enter here
shall we go?
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Will you walk with me?

kif kif
Member
since 06-01-2006
Posts 431
BCN


7 posted 08-01-2006 06:17 PM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

Temperance, Prudence, Courage, Justice.

I'd also say perseverance, reason, and fitting with Temperance, personal control of anger.

Wittiness is a personal 'yay!' at being virtuous, as virtue should permeate everything we do.

Digital, you said 'moderation' earlier. I'd say maybe that's like Temperance...I'll be back tomorrow, but they're two different words that have the same meaning, I think, so I'll have to think about what I said earlier-but it's all about 'self' control, not being controlled. To your point, "things shift"...yes, the circumstances can shift, but the essence of actions taken, if they're virtuous, they're infinitely virtuous.
kif kif
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since 06-01-2006
Posts 431
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8 posted 08-02-2006 02:15 AM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

Although...Temperance for a genius artist might be detrimental...
Digital_Hell
Member
since 06-05-2006
Posts 193
Amidst black roses


9 posted 08-06-2006 03:41 PM       View Profile for Digital_Hell   Email Digital_Hell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Digital_Hell

Justice? But everyone has their own sense of justice, of what is right and just.

But reason can be twisted and incorrect wont you say? Just look at hitler and the nazis, what they did they validated with their reason but this was most definately "wrong"...

quote:
if they're virtuous, they're infinitely virtuous.


So then that same action used in hate, anger and "evil" would then still be infinitely virtuous?
I agree with you that moderation and temperance are the same.

A sign in  the wind
The fatal last breath
Soft prelude to my death
Alone
Amidst black roses

kif kif
Member
since 06-01-2006
Posts 431
BCN


10 posted 08-09-2006 03:10 PM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

I don't think hate anger or evil are Virtues. If you're hateful, yes, you're infinitely hateful. It seeps...

Justice shouldn't be personal.

Hitler was a crazy man. It's not reasonable to believe in Dinosaur Beings that live in the centre of the Earth, and travel to their star every now and then. Plus, his reason was being "The Chosen Ones", and I'm vehemently saying that it's reasonable to believe that everyone is equal, (until they become stupid, like Hitler. He chose himself, that's all.) There is no such people as "The Chosen Ones".
Digital_Hell
Member
since 06-05-2006
Posts 193
Amidst black roses


11 posted 08-09-2006 05:23 PM       View Profile for Digital_Hell   Email Digital_Hell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Digital_Hell

quote:
If you're hateful, yes, you're infinitely hateful
Are our actions that locked in stone? Is something either infinitely hateful or infinitely virtuous? Is there no middle ground? Take something as love, in certain circumstances it would be infinitely virtuous yet, alter the circumstances and that same love can become infinitely hateful.

quote:
Justice shouldn't be personal
this is impossible. even gods justice is personal. Since justice is determined by morals and beliefs, it will always be personal.

quote:
and I'm vehemently saying that it's reasonable to believe that everyone is equal
Id agree fully here, however jsut because he became stupid by believing in an aryan race, does not mean he is now less equel. He remains equal even though his actions are tainted.

A sign in  the wind
The fatal last breath
Soft prelude to death
Alone
Amidst black roses

kif kif
Member
since 06-01-2006
Posts 431
BCN


12 posted 08-10-2006 08:03 AM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

Well, I wouldn't say that love and hate were virtues, so really, I'm saying that the potential is there for them not to be infinite. I agree with what you've just said now, about hate not being infinite. It could be desire for personal gain, unreasonably thought as good? It could also be a reasonable desire that can change bad experiences into a universal good? This is where egotism gone wild mixes it all up. See future musings about emotional and reasonable balance.

*I've got Ari Up's lyric in my head, now. "Don't take it personal, I choose my own fate, I follow love and I follow hate."

(I think love and hate are both, in essence, desire. At either ends of the spectrum. I have to mention here, Digital, that this conversation is not about light and dark, good and bad. Love, like hate, is not infinitely good, or bad, it just is desire. Of course, the desire can be for light or dark, good or bad, but to pre-empt my next paragraphs, that depends perhaps on experience? Plus, sometimes hating something can spark a change for the better, yet in the throes of change, can appear as bad?)  

*I'm sweeping. I don't think love and hate are virtues, because they're changeable, depending on emotional 'stability'. What I mean by that is, if emotions are not 'kept in place' by reason, and if reason is not 'kept in place' with emotions, there is a great possibility for error.

Who or what can prove that there is an 'outside' God that dispenses personal Justice? Morals and beliefs are changeable too. I'm currently looking more into absurdist thoughts...borne alongside the philosophy of existentialism. Now, I'm not knowlegable to discuss it properly yet, but it points to interpretation of works (see 'reception theory'), sparked by the concept of phenomenology. Briefly, all that explores the idea of having to forge our own ideals from phenomena. (Unfortunately, not everybody is exposed to truthful patterns. To follow the point of my 'poem', this is where moral courage to stand up against these untruths comes in, so that everybody, equally, has all the natural truths before building on their belief-systems.)

I'm not quite sure yet, of where I stand on all this (tee-hee), but I do believe that the theories above work beautifully within literature. It's all about reader interpretation...from the bible to the  quoran, throughout the history books and biography's, poems, fiction, non-fictional prose, and newspapers, to name a few writings. Meanings are forged by reception.

As for your point about Hitler. Hmmm. If a 'race' sets themselves apart as superior, when in fact it is not true, then they have chosen inequality. There is no good form of inequality, no virtue within that. If we were to convert this within our conversation about interpretation, the term 'intentional fallacy' springs to mind. Someone like Hitler cannot decide how his work will be taken, unless the population have forged their morals from his experienced then enforced interpretation of phenomena...called propaganda? !!! Ping

Committed art. What does it all mean? A drive through shooting down da's propaganda? Commited art could be our found virtue? That would keep the 'crazy' geniuses involved, while omitting over-egotistical despots enforcing their opinions...for it is the unchangeable virtue, Knowledge, that cuts through untruths.


[This message has been edited by kif kif (08-10-2006 08:57 AM).]

Digital_Hell
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since 06-05-2006
Posts 193
Amidst black roses


13 posted 08-10-2006 12:13 PM       View Profile for Digital_Hell   Email Digital_Hell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Digital_Hell

Well then what would you say are virtues that are either infinitaly good or infinitely evil? I want one for discussions purposes and i cannot decid eon one since a virtue that is good in one situation can be evil in this next...

quote:
but to pre-empt my next paragraphs, that depends perhaps on experience? Plus, sometimes hating something can spark a change for the better, yet in the throes of change, can appear as bad?)
I would agree wiht you on this, that it depends on experience and the situation.

I am somewhat in agreement with your next paragraph. the reason i involved god was because he is taken as pure,innocent perfect etc... And earlier you said that justice was infinitely virtuous if the essence of it was
virtuous. And i disagree with this, even the justice of god is not impersonal and infinitely virtuous.

quote:
then they have chosen inequality
Yes but that does not mean because of this that they should be treated  unequally themselves. And yes, unless he has already onfluenced people in support of his work he cannot know how it will be interpreted.

This is why i said we cannot trully judge if something is good or evil, because we have all warped truth through our own perceptions

A sign in  the wind
The fatal last breath
Soft prelude to death
Alone
Amidst black roses

LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


14 posted 08-10-2006 12:48 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Kif Kif
thank you for this thread
I know only one thing...I have been on both sides of the coin of this, and, standing up for what I believe in, is no longer important to me...it's enough that I believe, and worse at someone else's cost...

hurting another is devestating to me...and so, my answer would be, I believe what I believe, open to change, owning a fidelity to self...in that, is enough, no one else has to know...being right at the cost of the feelings of others to me, is simply not worth it.  

Believe me, I will protect my own territory if need be, but if I must, in the end, I usually end up feeling very bad for a long, long time...

because I believe when you hurt someone's feelings, you could change their lives for the worst forever...words can kill, just as if you held a gun to someone's head.  Believe me.

but that's simply me

thanks for the opportunity to express.
kif kif
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since 06-01-2006
Posts 431
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15 posted 08-11-2006 03:07 AM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

I think LeeJ will agree with me when I offer 'courage' as the virtue you're looking for, Digital. Whether it is courage to stand against, or up for something, or courage to say nothing. (Knowledge would be the only good/real virtue? I think we can judge what's good and bad, if we have ALL the information, but what I'm saying is, we're prone to interpreting the interpretations.)

LeeJ, I totally get what you're saying "my green gaze captures many things, I used to stand up for, but I'm no soldier..." Patience/courage to wait before jumping in throws up information lost to the 'warrior'.

I do think that virtues can be used as a method for social control if the individual has been 'groomed'. Courage can be decanted into doing things for the wrong reasons...just look at the latest terror plot against our airports. I'll bet the young men were groomed to believe they must act couragously, when in fact, they acted through the propaganda'ists interpretation of virtue.
That doesn't change what virtue really is, it just means that the terrorists have applied their own meanings to what courage really is, without having any balance of virtue/knowledge.  

The very words like courage and justice were mostly invented alongside a reverence for brave warriors anyway! [Profanity removed - Ron]


[This message has been edited by Ron (08-11-2006 09:24 AM).]

LeeJ
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16 posted 08-11-2006 08:30 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

yes, Kif Kif it is so what you said in your last line...
but...there is also so so much good as well...and when we learn to look for it, the bad, doesn't look so bad, not to mention, there is always good that comes from the bad...it's good to hold onto memories, event he bad stuff, but we shouldn't allow the bad to invade our every thought, until it brings us down, making us feel defeated.  

yes, the things that have happened in this world have been henous crimes, and even more frustrating that we don't learn from our mistakes...and we have history as our teachers...but then I think, not everyone learns at once, and there will always be those crazies like Hitler...then to
there are those JL's Earth Angels, My Girlfriend Trudy, Nan's, Liz's, Dark Strangers, Ron's who love to challenge me, , Karen's, Kari's, Gentle Spirits, my mom, neighbors, even the irritating ones...and they Kif, are the ones that make this world, so so good.  We learn from each other, hug each other when need be, laugh together, cry, and even disagree....didn't mean for that part to rhyme...what I'm saying is....we are as we think and believe, and we will be the ones that are talked about, when we are gone, and the new ones come along...the only thing that will be different is time's technology, but they will think and feel and even say, the same things we are saying and fighting for now.  So, it's best to see as much good as we can, while we're here...yanno?


we can't change the world, or cultures way of thinking immediately, it's a very very long process consisting of generations, but what we can do is visit the good, when it seems there is no longer good around...and all of a sudden, the world has color and vision...horizons and rainbows....

tomorrow is another day...a new start

hugs and thank you


kif kif
Member
since 06-01-2006
Posts 431
BCN


17 posted 08-11-2006 09:21 AM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

Interestingly, the places that display colour, vision, horizons and rainbows are often places that have no choice but to see the bad, as it's ingrained in a society's oppression. (Minds and bodies locked and receptive to another's interpretation?) Brnging me back to the idea that knowledge of what's really going on in society is virtuous, a vehicle to good?

I totally agree with what you're saying, LeeJ, that if we look towards 'good', the bad fades into the background? There's a great lyric by colonelred that says "If life is just a state of mind then why are we in such decline, it's like we've come so far from who we are." Also, "life is a state of mind, we have to be reminded."

Sitting here, yes.
LeeJ
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since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
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18 posted 08-11-2006 09:49 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

yes, and indeed, there are times when I ponder and to, linger longer then I should on why we haven't come further along, like for instance, science, technology, cures for disease?  We certainly should be...at least I think we should...transportation...infostructure...so so many improvements we should be seeing....intellectually.....

not meaning to ignore the emotional side of man that should certainly to, be more at peace with self and others.  

I mean...there are still people out there who believe material wealth is where it's at....people buying and spending much more then their means....we, in this day of technology and knowledge, should not have homeless, we should not have nearly the criminals we have....and that is what I  mean by knowledge is power....poverty, to me, breeds criminal behavior, and if violence would lesson, the vulgarity and sexual crimes would also fade.  

Ya know what I cannot fathom, and don't misunderstand, there is nothing wrong with sex...but so so many people are baseing their lives on it....as if there is nothing else in the world...?  Like, that's all there is to life....it's making people sick internally, as well as drugs, the wanton of every average person to want to live like Hollywood Stars....selling their souls for face lifts, my God the vanity????  I don't know...I remember when I'd hear my parents talk like this, I'd roll my eyes...perhaps it's just me getting old.

Hey Kif, thank you for the opportunity to vent.  

I enjoyed this thread.

 
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