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Christians, What Do You Think?

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JesusChristPose
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0 posted 04-26-2006 07:15 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

http://www.exposetheleft.com/2006/04/page/8/

Okay, Look at the Title: Troop Hating Church Confronted by H&C.  You have to scroll down a bit. Here you can download or view the video.

[This message has been edited by JesusChristPose (04-28-2006 03:20 PM).]

Essorant
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1 posted 04-26-2006 09:11 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"The page cannot be found"

JesusChristPose
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2 posted 04-26-2006 10:23 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Try it now through another website.
JesusChristPose
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3 posted 04-27-2006 08:47 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

I was really hoping to hear the thoughts of Christians upon watching this video... I am quite curious to what Christians think about this particular denomination.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

jbouder
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4 posted 04-28-2006 08:40 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Still couldn't access it.  Looks like a website of a Christian rock band.  Maybe you could copy and paste what you want us to see.

Jim
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5 posted 04-28-2006 10:45 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Actually, Dream Theater is one of the best Progressive Rock bands on the market (for my tastes, anyhow.) and have not that much- if anything- to do with Christian anything.

"... the rest is silence"
from the song The Flesh Failures
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Essorant
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6 posted 04-28-2006 11:40 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

It is an interview with a woman from Westboro Baptist Church.
JesusChristPose
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7 posted 04-28-2006 12:32 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

I will try it again later.
JesusChristPose
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8 posted 04-28-2006 01:15 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Okay, I found another link for the video. the URL can be found on my original post of this thread.

I am really curious as to what Christians and non-Christians think about this particular denomination of Christianity and its followers thoughts on God.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

JesusChristPose
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9 posted 04-28-2006 03:21 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

It really works now (Scroll down a bit to find the video about this Baptist denomination). And Essorant provided a good link to find out more about this Christian denomination.

http://www.exposetheleft.com/2006/04/page/8/


"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."
jbouder
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10 posted 04-28-2006 03:31 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Clearly, God has revealed this to them.  How can I argue with that?

Jim
Stephanos
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11 posted 04-29-2006 01:33 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

I think I know Jim well enough to tell when he's being facetious.

In Ezekiel 33:11 God told Israel through the prophet Ezekiel "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?".

As true as some of the observations of Fred Phelps may be about the sinful backslidden state of America, the difference between his and a genuinely prophetic voice can be summarized in the unrestrained glee with which judgement is not only described, but wished upon others.  Though there are some very poignant passages in the Bible where God's anger seems to be so fierce as to hide his mercy at times ... I don't think I've ever heard such a tone of deriding, mocking, and ridicule come even from the staunchest Old Testament prophets.  Even Jermemiah was known as the "weeping prophet", not the snarling prophet.


And as for Christians, Jesus himself should be our example.  Even when prophetically pronouncing judgement over a nation which rejected God, he was weeping as it were, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!".  Does this sound like Fred Phelps?  Paul warned in 1 Corinthians that one could possess much truth and faith, and yet be nothing, for lack of love.  And I just don't see enough tears along side of what these people are saying.  They are obviously what Paul describes as "clanging cymbals".  Brassy, reverberating, and lifeless.


And yes, as angry as that makes me, they too need prayer more than anything else.  Because self-righteousness, scripturally speaking, incurs more divine wrath than the crude,  more common,  and less-religious sorts of "sinners".


Stephen.      
JesusChristPose
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12 posted 04-29-2006 01:18 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"Clearly, God has revealed this to them.  How can I argue with that?"

~ I don't think you can. How can you?

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Stephanos
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13 posted 04-29-2006 02:40 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

JCP:
quote:
I don't think you can. How can you?

I don't get it.  Are you saying that you agree with Phelps?  It's quite easy to see that his approach, his "spirit" as it were, is not in line with the teachings of scripture.


Stephen.  

  

JesusChristPose
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14 posted 04-29-2006 03:18 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"I don't get it.  Are you saying that you agree with Phelps?"

~ No, I am not saying I agree, yet I am not saying I disagree with (and I just don't believe in saying "Phelps"), but with this particular denomination. Afterall, all denominations have started by an agreement with ONE man.

~ And who am I to say that God isn't furious with a false christian nation? He is the same today as He was yesterday - and at times He has been downright furious enough to let His wrath be known. I mean, he even killed innocent first-born babies when a certain Pharoah batteld Moses.

~ And for any interpretation you provide to argue against what this denomination is teaching, there is other scripture that supports it (and no, I am not getting into interpretation of scripture with you, your mind is made up Stephanos ).

"It's quite easy to see that his approach, his "spirit" as it were, is not in line with the teachings of scripture."

~ To you and to others whom have been taught and raised as you have. Not to others. A person's worldview definitely shapes his or her theological (among other things) thoughts.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Stephanos
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15 posted 04-29-2006 03:49 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
... but with this particular denomination

You may consider this a trifle, but it's not a "denomination".  It's Waynesboro Baptist Church, an independent church. That's a much smaller phenomenon than a denomination ... and seeing the extreme and bitter nature of it all, it is easy to understand why.

quote:
And for any interpretation you provide to argue against what this denomination is teaching, there is other scripture that supports it

Again, it's not a denomination.  But that's exactly what I am asserting, that there is no body of scripture to support the character of that "ministry", without a proof text approach (taking things out of their whole context).  And even then a lot of gall and acerbic "addition" would have to be made.


quote:
and no, I am not getting into interpretation of scripture with you


That's one problem, you don't seem willing to try to defend what you say from scripture in a comprehensive way.  Rather you're painting a picture (not with scripture, but with surface "brushings" of paraphrased bible) which would suggest (to the non-reader) that the bible is too ambiguous for certainty.  But that only works as long as you can keep things nebulous.


quote:
A person's worldview definitely shapes his or her theological (among other things) thoughts.


Do you deny the possibility that a person's theological thoughts may also shape his worldview?  And also that the Bible may have an independent theology of it's own, to be apprehended by us, rather than constructed by us?  


Stephen.

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (04-29-2006 10:39 PM).]

JesusChristPose
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16 posted 04-30-2006 10:53 AM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"You may consider this a trifle, but it's not a "denomination".  It's Waynesboro Baptist Church, an independent church. That's a much smaller phenomenon than a denomination ... and seeing the extreme and bitter nature of it all, it is easy to understand why."

~ All denominations start out in the same manner as this one - as a small denomination. And as for their nature, let me ask you this... have you ever attended Baptist or Pentacostal services in the Bible Belt?

"Again, it's not a denomination."

~ Again, it is a denomination, albeit very local as of now.

"But that's exactly what I am asserting, that there is no body of scripture to support the character of that "ministry", without a proof text approach (taking things out of their whole context).  And even then a lot of gall and acerbic "addition" would have to be made."

~ Your way of interpreting the Bible, may be the mainstream's truth, but it is based on man's interpretation, and a majority opinion does not make for - It is our way or the highway.

"That's one problem, you don't seem willing to try to defend what you say from scripture in a comprehensive way.  Rather you're painting a picture (not with scripture, but with surface "brushings" of paraphrased bible) which would suggest (to the non-reader) that the bible is too ambiguous for certainty.  But that only works as long as you can keep things nebulous."

~ Brushings of paraphrased bible? Most christian churches where I used to worship paraphrased the bible all of the time.

"Do you deny the possibility that a person's theological thoughts may also shape his worldview?  And also that the Bible may have an independent theology of it's own, to be apprehended by us, rather than constructed by us?"

~ I will answer that question by telling you this... A particular tribe in Africa has their own truths, their own God(s), their worldview about all matters of life are completely foreign to yours. If a missionary is sent to that particular tribe in order to save them from themselves, and some become scared of the thought of burning forever in a hellfire and therefore accept the missionary's theological position, then I would answer, yes to both of your questions.  
jbouder
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17 posted 05-01-2006 10:19 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

JCP and Stephan:

I wasn't being facetious - I'm simply cutting to the chase.

Many people claim direct revelation from God to support their theological positions.  The problem is that, almost without exception, God seems to say one thing to one person and then says the opposite thing to another.  Special revelation is most certainly a very, very rare thing and, for that reason, I believe most people who claim to have received such direct knowledge from God are most often self-deluded.  This self delusion provides a convenient escape from reason.  "You do not have the Holy Spirit" or "You are not a true believer" so "How could you understand?"

Who knows.  Maybe I do and maybe I don't.  How can you know one way or another without putting my assertions to the test and encouraging me to explain my positions clearly and honestly?  How can I know the same about you?

So, in truth, I can "argue with that," I simply cannot persuade those who have allowed themselves to be deceived in such ways.  So if I choose to engage such folks in debate, it is for the benefit of the audience, rather than my interlocutor.

Jim
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18 posted 05-01-2006 07:28 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Jim,

I understand your point of view.  However I think the litmus test for "special revelation" is whether or not it is essentially harmonious with the general teachings of scripture.  For example, I believe that the wrath of God is real and is at work in America today ... The premise is correct.  However, Phelps as a prophetic voice is doubtful.  Why?  Because in spirit he "looks" nothing like the biblical prophets.  There are patterns which will never change.  Even when Jesus came, he honored the prophets, and affirmed them.  I've read that Fred Phelps constantly compares America with the apostate Israel of the Old Testament (not a bad comparison in many ways).  But could you ever imagine even one of the prophets saying "God hates Israel"?  Or, more incredible still, how about Jesus saying that?  

So I guess I'm not as doubtful about you, about the possibility of cogently refuting such tendencies, using scripture in its context.  How effective will that be in changing their minds?  That's not my part to worry about.  The true prophetic voice was called to simply say it, heeded or not.  And I'm confident that the bitterness of heart, (what kind of people they are becoming) proves that they really know that it's not a right approach ... that they do so against the whole counsel of scripture.  But it's not consistency they are looking for anyway, when sinful human anger is their fruit of choice.

But yes, this thread is definitely for those who are curious themselves about this form of heresy.  

Stephen.  
Stephanos
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19 posted 05-02-2006 10:19 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
All denominations start out in the same manner as this one - as a small denomination.


That still doesn't make one church a "denomination".  Actually the name "Baptist" in "Westboro Baptist Church" indicates (whether formal or informal) an association with a definite denomination.  But the practice and teaching of this church is only a caricature of what usually denotes Baptist faith and practice.  But if you insist on calling it a "denomination", I won't argue the point any longer.  Because more importantly than this church not being in accord with Baptist standards, is it's prominent deviation from a biblical pattern ... the wrath of God and the austere words of the prophets notwithstanding.      

quote:
And as for their nature, let me ask you this... have you ever attended Baptist or Pentacostal services in the Bible Belt?


Yes, I live in the Bible Belt.  And the very worst examples of Baptist or Pentecostal services, don't even come close.

quote:
Your way of interpreting the Bible, may be the mainstream's truth, but it is based on man's interpretation, and a majority opinion does not make for - It is our way or the highway.


I really don't think it is.  Actually the mainstream interpretation as of late seems to go light on speaking of sin and judgement.  Feel good religion, and political correctness seem to be gaining too much ground, to be honest.  There is much out of balance on both sides of the truth.  So I wouldn't say that my interpretation is necessarily "mainstream".  But even if it were, the question would still be whether or not it agreed with scripture in its wider context.  You can't debunk something merely because it's popular or unpopular.  And you haven't heard me criticizing Westboro Baptist Church on those grounds either.  

While you do see the fallacy of judging according to size alone (sometimes ... for you have slammed the majority for being itself), you don't have any replacement standard with which to judge rightly, as long as you insist on spiritual agnosticism.

[Edited to remove personal questions not relevant to the thread. Please limit comments and questions to the post and not the poster. Ron ]

[This message has been edited by Ron (05-03-2006 02:32 AM).]

Stephanos
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20 posted 05-03-2006 11:51 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Ron,

Can I at least ask Mike what his response would have been if I had agreed with and defended Fred Phelps?  I think that's very relevant.  When someone tells me my answer is wrong, I want to know what he thinks the right answer is ... or whether he is trying to say (through one more thread) that there are no right answers, in which case I ask "Why post in the first place"?  These questions I raise are related to his views, not merely his person.


Stephen.


Ron
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"Why post in the first place?" is exactly the kind of question I'd like to see avoided, Stephen. People don't need to have their motives questioned, and when push comes to shove, it doesn't matter why an issue is raised. Short of trolling to purposely pick fights, we shouldn't care.

The thread isn't about Mike or about Mike's views versus Stephen's views. It's ostensibly about Fred Phelps. So talk about Fred Phelps or any issues that relate to Fred Phelps. I haven't and probably won't follow the link, so have little idea how wide an umbrella is needed to cover the issue, but let's please avoid making it about the participants of the discussion.


Stephanos
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22 posted 05-03-2006 10:33 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
The thread isn't about Mike or about Mike's views versus Stephen's views. It's ostensibly about Fred Phelps.



Really?  I thought it was about "Christians What do you think"?  


Seriously, very little has been said about the subject matter of Fred Phelps, except by me.  Mostly (if you'll kindly review) Mike's replies have centered around my lack of grounds for "what I think".  The ambiguity of the title, coupled with the kinds of responses thus far, I think you can at least appreciate my confusion about what the purpose of the thread actually is.  I can understand your insistence here, but it should go both ways I think.


If Mike wants to talk about the subject matter of the video, or WBC, or Fred, then I'm in.  Otherwise I think I'm done.  


Not meaning to be disrespectful to you Ron, just want you to see where I'm coming from.  Carry on ...


Stephen.  


Ron
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Questioning grounds for comments is still acceptable in a philosophical discussion, Stephen. That's not the same as questioning motivations.

And it does go both ways. You just don't see the numerous posts completely deleted because, unlike yours, they couldn't be salvaged with an edit.

If you feel the thread is ambiguous or poorly focused you can choose to not participate. As I said previously, I decided to not even follow the proffered link.


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24 posted 05-06-2006 03:16 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Impersonality and not questioning any motives is something for robots, not humans.
 
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