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Passions in Poetry

Christians, What Do You Think?

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JesusChristPose
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25 posted 05-09-2006 08:00 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

~ What do other Christians think about this particular denomination is what I meant.

~ I corelated the film clip to the thread about respecting others religious beliefs even though when not in front of those faces the respect is not to be found.

~ It appears that this particular Christian church is indeed truthful and honest about their beliefs, which I find refreshing. Too many times while living in the south and attending either a Baptist or Pentacostal service, the preachers would lambaste all religions other than Christianity (also included some of those too were included, like the Catholics). I simply call it being two-faced and lying.

~ Besides that, I believe God, in this day and age, is sick and tired of the killing of humans by humans and just may using this church to prophesize is anger. Who am I or anybody else for that matter to judge?


"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."
Midnitesun
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26 posted 05-09-2006 08:26 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

I haven't read the entire thread
but am wondering...
why are you only concerned about what Christians think????
I am not a Christian.
Are my views/thoughts therefore less relevant?
I am not being facetious here, just wondering....as I have sometimes been ignored in the past when I have mentioned I am not Christian, not Jew, not Muslim, not Hindu...
am I therefore nothing to you?
Just a curiosity Q, as I am fine with who I am.....
Stephanos
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27 posted 05-09-2006 11:33 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

JCP:
quote:
Besides that, I believe God, in this day and age, is sick and tired of the killing of humans by humans and just may using this church to prophesize is anger. Who am I or anybody else for that matter to judge?

If you think that God is "sick and tired" of any behavior and is therefore revealing his anger at sin, then haven't you already "judged"?  I'm still wondering why you feel it necessary (especially after saying things like that) to play the relativist.  In other words, why make reasoned-out statements, and then end up refuting others and inadvertently yourself with the "who are we to say" line?  


Aside from that, what about the distinction between communicating truth out of love, versus communicating it out of spite?  I have two young children, and believe you me, I can tell the difference between an honest informant, and a tattler.  When I was in school, I could tell the difference between the classroom jerk who would jeer me to shame for an unzipped fly, and the friend who would rather pull me aside.  You can tell when someone's got your best interest in mind.  The clues usually lie in mannerisms and methods, and sometimes just a look into their eyes.  Such clues are sometimes subtle, sometimes not.  But they are usually plainly seen if one is patient.  It's that kind of thing that gives the Phelp clan away.  


So Christians can believe in divine judgement against sin, and even a state called "hell", and still share them with true concern, without the revilement.  That doesn't make them dishonest.  I for one believe in such things, and have never attempted to hide it.  But I hope I have held such beliefs responsibly rather than wielding them like a stun gun.  


But regardless of what your opinion of me is ... I would like to see you address this distinction in the thread.  Is the problem always with the "truth" or with the spirit behind the announcement thereof?  Action aside, there's still a right way and a wrong way to do anything.  And it's exactly the same with beliefs.  (I'm not saying however that beliefs are unimportant)


Stephen        
Kitherion
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28 posted 08-01-2006 03:53 AM       View Profile for Kitherion   Email Kitherion   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kitherion

Although all you who claim to be christian exist in the world of your own, why can anyone tell me is it that hypocrisy exists within you?

Within the path of the Goddess I walk, she guides my every step.. into the oblivion called life.

Stephanos
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29 posted 08-01-2006 07:10 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
why can anyone tell me is it that hypocrisy exists within you?

Are you asking why Christians still encounter the problem of sin, in their own lives?  


Stephen.


Slater1987
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30 posted 08-02-2006 03:59 AM       View Profile for Slater1987   Email Slater1987   Edit/Delete Message     View IP for Slater1987

why you ask in your own lives. what about the lives of others , what of the life that we are supposed to live. we live in a single solitary world of deception and lies that surround our lives, why are you so blind sighted (no offence). kitherion believes that we are blinded with all these so called promises and truths and he is right to believe so. when last has there been a miracle that is recorded and not judged
Kitherion
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31 posted 08-02-2006 04:00 AM       View Profile for Kitherion   Email Kitherion   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kitherion

" Are you asking why Christians still encounter the problem of sin, in their own lives? "

Why do you think that this question relates to sin? I was actually refering to the fact that Christians in general are blinded to the real world. They seem to exist within themselves and forget that reality is somewhere out there. If Christians are so eager to help people, pray tell inform me why they believe in a firery eternale hell, for someone who was not Christian?

I am not trying to insult any specific religion (especially not Christianity) but I am just curious as to why a lovong God would send you to such torment.

Blessings

Within the path of the Goddess I walk, she guides my every step.. into the oblivion called life.

LeeJ
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32 posted 08-02-2006 11:48 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Kitherion

quote:
Although all you who claim to be christian exist in the world of your own, why can anyone tell me is it that hypocrisy exists within you?


I don't believe so (although, lets try and keep in mind, that no human is perfect)and here's why...
what is it that makes a person a Christian in your eyes?


Stephanos
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33 posted 08-02-2006 05:55 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Kitherion:
quote:
Why do you think that this question relates to sin? I was actually refering to the fact that Christians in general are blinded to the real world. They seem to exist within themselves and forget that reality is somewhere out there.



You're right that this is a gross over-generalization, as the behavior you describe probably has it's roots in selfishness and individualism, which the Bible itself is very critical of.  To what degree Christians or non-Christians are self-absorbed and "blinded to the real world" is debatable, and actually I decline, lest this discussion lapse into childish ad hominem.  


quote:
If Christians are so eager to help people, pray tell inform me why they believe in a firery eternale hell, for someone who was not Christian?



Why would "helping people" and believing in the doctrine of Hell be antithetical?  That doesn't make any logical sense.  The question is whether Hell a reality or not.  Christians assert that it is, based upon the teaching of Jesus.  Presumably part of the Christian responsibility, in addition to humanitarian efforts, is to "help" people escape the reality of hell (on Earth, and in eternity) by preaching the Gospel.


There are several reasons why Christians might believe in Hell ... 1) Biblical teaching, especially the words of Christ.  and 2) human conscience and premonition of "Judgement Day".  Many many cultures outside of Christian have anticipated and expressed a belief in a day of reckoning.  If the Christian teaching that we have "sin" is true, then the human conscience is a testimony of the possibility of hell, since a large segment of humanity has experienced the raging of the conscience in an accusatory tone.  Countless sleepless nights of regret, Lady Macbeth's bloody hands, and the gnawing guilt of Dostoyevsky's characters, are just a few examples where the agonies of hell have been (knowingly or unwittingly) anticipated.    
quote:
I am not trying to insult any specific religion (especially not Christianity) but I am just curious as to why a loving God would send you to such torment.



Believe you me, the teaching is not palatable, nor easily digested, but it is certainly not as simple as thinking "God would send everyone to Heaven if he really loved them".  


The kind of teaching we have is that it is our sin, which makes us deserving and destined for such an eternity.  It is God who has gone through great pains (remember the Cross of Golgotha) to redeem us, and make sure we know that we don't have to enter that awful state.  It's good to think we might be able to decline "Digitalhell's" invitation to "abandon all hope".


You must understand that if salvation only comes through the goodness and mercy of God (who is the author, source, and creator of all good things), then it is absurd to think it could be done without him.  It's like wanting your thirst quenched, as long as H20 isn't involved.  


I can assure you that the Christian doctrine asserts two things ...

1) God will allow no one to such a fate, lightly or glibly.

2) God has a desire for all men to repent, and believe the truth that they might be saved.

  
These truths allow us to "trust" God with those who have never heard the Gospel (and so have never consciously rejected it).  For though we do not know God's plan with such as them, we can know that he is merciful.


Stephen  
Kitherion
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34 posted 08-03-2006 02:38 AM       View Profile for Kitherion   Email Kitherion   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kitherion

Stephanos:

I still cannot believe that I loving God would do such a thing. I do not believe that all good people go to heaven either as you see that in the bible (Reveleation 14 : 1 to 4)it says that only 144 000 go to heaven ("and I saw and look the lamb standing upon mount Zion and with him was a great crowd of 144 000 having his name and the name of his father written upon their foreheads") and no where in the bible does it mention anything about hell.

Blessings

Within the path of the Goddess I walk, she guides my every step.. into the oblivion called life.

Stephanos
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35 posted 08-04-2006 01:20 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Kitherion
quote:
I do not believe that all good people go to heaven either as you see that in the bible



Actually the teaching is that all penitent sinners who believe in and recieve the grace of God go to heaven ... not "good people".  I think we're all ruled out of that elitist category.


quote:
it says that only 144 000 go to heaven ("and I saw and look the lamb standing upon mount Zion and with him was a great crowd of 144 000 having his name and the name of his father written upon their foreheads")



So why don't you likewise believe that Jesus' parable about the wise and unwise virgins teaches that only 5 people will be saved?  

A book like Revelation is rife with symbolism.  and 144,000 is symbolic either of the literal nation of Israel in the end times, or the larger "Israel" of God's people Jew or Gentile.  For Israel came from 12 sons of Jacob or "Israel", had 12 tribes.  Jesus chose 12 Apostles, etc ...  12 is a number that speaks of the Government of God.  Multiply 12 X 12, and what do you get?  144.  And thousands, in a symbolic use of numbers, is augmentation ... a way of stating a very large, but unspecified number.  This is a group of people whose character is revealed by their particular number, not their literal head-count.  


Stephen.


Stephanos
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36 posted 08-04-2006 04:03 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Jim,

sniff sniff, do I smell someone who hasn't been around here in a while.  Or is it my imagination?  


Stephen.
Essorant
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37 posted 08-04-2006 05:26 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I just realized what you mean

[This message has been edited by Essorant (08-04-2006 06:19 PM).]

Kitherion
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38 posted 08-10-2006 09:22 AM       View Profile for Kitherion   Email Kitherion   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kitherion

Not only is your reply implicating your own ideas into the bible Stephanos, but you also seem to belive that the bibles figuarative meanings posses no relavance.

Since you belive this, pray tell inform me why Jesus refered to his other sheep? And what about the Great Crowd mentioned in Revalation 14?

This is something that I feel strongly about, so apologies for my abrasiveness.

Blessed Be

Within the path of the Goddess I walk, she guides my every step.. into the oblivion called life.

JesusChristPose
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39 posted 08-22-2006 06:17 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"sniff sniff, do I smell someone who hasn't been around here in a while.  Or is it my imagination?"

~ It was your imagination. Think again.    

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

iliana
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40 posted 08-22-2006 08:56 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Stephanos:  "God (who is the author, source, and creator of all good things)...."

I just could not resist, Stephanos.  God is indeed the creator of all things........ALL THINGS......it is humans who have formed the judgment of bad and good.  God is the source of all creation.  ALL.  And weren't we informed....."Judge not, lest ye be judged."   *smile*


Indeed, if God only created good things.....then either God did not make any evil or there was a god who did.....get my drift?  (Under your supposition, that is.)  And if that is so, then God created that god, right?  However, if God only created good things....then you see, everything is good.  *wink*
icebox
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41 posted 08-22-2006 10:23 PM       View Profile for icebox   Email icebox   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for icebox

"...madness doesn’t come from staring into the face of God, it is caused by the awareness of what is staring back."
Stephanos
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42 posted 08-23-2006 10:42 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Iliana:
quote:
I just could not resist, Stephanos.  God is indeed the creator of all things........ALL THINGS......it is humans who have formed the judgment of bad and good.  God is the source of all creation.  ALL.  And weren't we informed....."Judge not, lest ye be judged."   *smile*"


The belief that God created all things good, and that the spoiling principle of sin was brought into creation by others, does not necessarily mean that God created evil or that he is to blame.  In fact I know of nothing intrinsically evil, only good things used in wrong ways.  Evil is not original, it is perversive.  And perversion can be a problem for those who are given the choice to do so if they wish.    


God does take responsiblity for evil, however, as evidenced by what was done on the Cross.  This is not God's true blame, but substitutionary responsibility which acts as if he were.


I believe that Biblically, we have the distinction between "good and evil" which is determined by God's own nature in contrast to that which is unlike him in character.  However the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" was a temptation for humanity to decide for themselves right and wrong, apart from the character and authority of God.  


So ... scripturally speaking, making distinction is not our problem, but autonomous distinction which always goes askew.  


And taken in context "Judge not lest you be judged", certainly doesn't mean for us to make no distinctions of evil and good actions.  It does, I think, mean to do our best to hate the sin while loving the sinner.  (I'm not glibly suggesting that that's an easy thing to do- impossible I think apart from God's grace).  It also means for us to be careful not to hold others to standards we wouldn't dream of holding ourselves to.  


Hope that clarifies.


Stephen.
Stephanos
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43 posted 08-25-2006 08:23 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Kitherion,

As a "sorcerer" and a practicer of Wicca, why do feel so strongly about what Jesus said, or about the Revelation?  I'm just curious what angle you are coming from.  I guess I'm just wondering why you seem zealous for a certain "interpretation" of a text you don't accept as revelatory.  Of course I may be mistaken about your beliefs, that's why I want you to clarify.


Thanks,

Stephen.  
Kitherion
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44 posted 08-30-2006 07:04 AM       View Profile for Kitherion   Email Kitherion   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kitherion

Stephanos,

As I said in my topic "Sorcerors Unite" sorcery and Christainity have a lot in common. Wiccan's on the other hand still believe that all the religions have a place and that they should not be misrepresented.

Blessings

Within the path of the Goddess I walk, she guides my every step.. into the oblivion called life.

Stephanos
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45 posted 08-30-2006 09:25 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
As I said in my topic "Sorcerors Unite" sorcery and Christainity have a lot in common.


I don't take that much for granted.  There are glaring differences which forever separate the two.  However, even if I granted you that, what does that have to do with any particular interpretation of Revelation, or of the words of Jesus?  


Are you trying to equate other "flocks" with things like Covens or Neo-Pagan religious groups?  If so, then I now understand your interest.


Stephen.
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46 posted 09-01-2006 11:29 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

[Deleted: decided it wasn't relevant enough]
 
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