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Passions in Poetry

Respect and Tolerance

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Brad
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0 posted 04-13-2006 05:10 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
We must respect the other fellow's religion,but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.

H. L. Mencken
Stephanos
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1 posted 04-13-2006 07:33 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
Is one religion as good as another?  Is one horse in the Derby as good as another?

G.K. Chesterton
Local Rebel
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2 posted 04-13-2006 08:28 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Iíve never understood how God could expect His creatures to pick the one true religion by faithóit strikes me as a sloppy way to run a universe.



-Robert A. Heinlein
Grinch
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3 posted 04-13-2006 08:45 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Only if the wife is actually ugly and the kids are stupid, if the wife is beautiful and the kids are actually smart one theory seems, at least to me, to have more merit than the other.

Respect and tolerance is fine when it comes to one mans belief that his wife is beautiful and his kids are smart even when all the evidence is to the contrary, I mean nobody gets hurt by the guys theory, right?

Respect and tolerance is also fine if someone happens to hold a particular view, including religious, that doesnít harm anyone. However should the same respect and tolerance be offered to extreme religious groups and sects that actively seek out the young and weak, almost brainwashing them, to spread their ideas and doctrines?

I donít think religion in that sense deserves the same respect and tolerance as the mans theory that his wife is beautiful and his kids are smart.

I think respect and tolerance should, in some cases, be earned or at least given in equal amounts to that which is received.
Local Rebel
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4 posted 04-13-2006 08:58 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

If you have two religions in your land, the two will cut each otherís throats; but if you have thirty religions, they will dwell in peace.


-Voltaire

Ron
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5 posted 04-13-2006 09:20 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
However should the same respect and tolerance be offered to extreme religious groups and sects that actively seek out the young and weak, almost brainwashing them, to spread their ideas and doctrines?

Why limit yourself to only religious groups and sects? You could just as easily be describing the Democratic/Republican (pick one) party, the KKK, Dr. Robert Atkins, Capital "What's in YOUR wallet?" One, or just about any nation or government that still appeals to patriotism to fuel military strength.

Persuasion has never been limited to religion, after all.


Grinch
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6 posted 04-13-2006 09:52 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch



True, but religion is probably the only one that demands or expects respect and tolerance from all sides.

If I were to say the Republicans\Democrats (take your pick) were a bunch of idiots, the neutrals would shrug their shoulders the opposing party would raise a cheer and the party in question would jump to retaliate or refute the claim.

If I say that Christians\Muslims (take your pick - any religion will do) are a bunch of idiots, the Christians\Muslims, the neutrals and members of opposing religions would all jump around asking for ĎRespectí and ĎToleranceí.

Does this protection from all sides not afford some religious groups a respectability they donít deserve and tolerance they havenít earned?

Essorant
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7 posted 04-13-2006 10:45 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

People and beliefs aren't the problem with people and beliefs: disrespectful and harmful manners are.
Ringo
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8 posted 04-13-2006 10:48 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

quote:
With all these different religions, someone is going to Hell... and it's gonna be crowded.

Redd Foxx

It is a crude way of putting it; however, I feel it is straight to the point. With everyone having their own different thoughts about religion, and within the same religion different thoughts about what it means, how can anyone profess theirs to be the only true way to enlightenment? The only one that truly knows just plain isn't telling.
The way I figure it, and the way I am teaching my kids (on everything, and not just religion) I have my own thoughts and beliefs that have "enlightened" me after looking at many of the different philosophies available. I might be right, however I am more than likely wrong about it, and for me to discount(for anyone to completely discount) someone else's thoughts and beliefs as completely wrong is just plain head-in-the-sand thinking.
Everyone should be given their free reign of thought right up to the point where they tell the world they are the only ones with the answers.


"... the rest is silence"
from the song The Flesh Failures www.myspace.com/mindlesspoet
Stephanos
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9 posted 04-13-2006 11:54 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
Iíve never understood how God could expect His creatures to pick the one true religion by faith

I would say that it is a caricature of Christianity which says that faith is blind.  Of course there have been those who say that God demands belief without any "evidence" so to speak ... those who believe that God's truth, and "our" truth stand forever separated, with a Kirkegaardian gulf in between that can only be bridged by a leap.  Only that kind of "faith" would warrant the sentiments of Mr. Heinlein.  Of course, an alternative is to say that God has given ample evidence of his truth (both in a general sense, and in the particulars of the Gospel).  This evidence ranges from the complexity and wonder of the outward creation, to the inward realities which are addressed and answered by the Christian truth (like personal sin, hope, beauty, love, death, and honor).  In short, the scriptures tell us that it's not as if God hasn't given a manifold testimony of himself both within the Judeo-Christian community and without.  


Where I think the "leap" comes in is in the area of commitment.  I intellectually believed in the truth of Christianity long before my heart was able to commit.  Why?  Because personal devotion and commitment go far deeper than the sterility of a mere intellectual belief.  It's not that I think intellect is unimportant.  I just think it's used as an excuse many times, to ward off the "leap" of letting go of control.  C.S. Lewis put it this way:  "If we wish to be rational, not now and then, but constantly, we must pray for the gift of Faith, for the power to go on believing not in the teeth of reason but in the teeth of lust and terror and jealousy and boredom and indifference.".  So a blind "faith" without any guidance, is not at all what God demands, but rather a faith which must respond with devotion, once what Christ has done is ascertained.


As far as the quote by Voltaire, that just hasn't proven to be true.  We have more like 30 million religions than 30.  Yet multiplicity of religion has not procurred peace.  The solution to fighting and war is not to naively (or dishonestly) say "all religions are essentially the same", but rather to be peaceful in action and ideology.  It is certainly possible to believe one's religion represents the only way to salvation, and be peaceful and passivist in approach.  A martyr is way different than a murderer, though both may hold a universal outlook.


Winding my way around to the original subject, I suppose that's where we need to revisit the word "tolerance".  I'm for tolerance.  But to say that all views are the same, is forced egalitarianism, not "tolerance".  Tolerance implies that when things aren't right, they are responded to in love and patience.  But the thing is, it presupposes that there are things "not right".  The denial of anyone being wrong is far cry from what tolerance really is.  The word, as of late, has been redefined.


Repect of person, and respect of doctrine can also be two different things.  I don't respect a doctrine that I believe will lead someone away from eternal life, but that doesn't mean I can't respect the person.          


Stephen    

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (04-14-2006 12:00 AM).]

hush
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10 posted 04-14-2006 03:10 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Stephen, I know you're smart enough to know horses and religions are a bad metaphor. If I could pet religion and feed it sugar cubes, I'd have been converted a long time ago.
Knubian
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11 posted 04-14-2006 09:49 AM       View Profile for Knubian   Email Knubian   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Knubian's Home Page   View IP for Knubian

Quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We are not free, separate, and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way."

Thomas Mann
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Source: MSN Daily Quotes

Regards,
Knubian

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12 posted 04-14-2006 07:33 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I don't mind Jesus, it's his fan club I can't stand.

-someone
Brad
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13 posted 04-14-2006 07:46 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Wasn't that Gandhi?
Stephanos
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14 posted 04-14-2006 10:04 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
Stephen, I know you're smart enough to know horses and religions are a bad metaphor. If I could pet religion and feed it sugar cubes, I'd have been converted a long time ago.


Hush, I can't argue with that.  Most people (including myself) want to "take the reigns", and have a tame and submissive religion that we can direct.  But if you've ever read "The Horse and his boy", there's a horse named Bree who tells a boy named Shasta not to touch the reigns, and to throw away his spurs, even though he's allowed to ride.  There are also horses in the wild that will never own a saddle.  Those are just small pictures of how true religion can be very much like equestrian wildness and beauty.    


quote:
I don't mind Jesus, it's his fan club I can't stand.


I'm not making light of the sins of the Church.  But like it or not, he seems to have identified himself very closely with that "club", even taking their sins, faults, and inadequacies upon himself.  And the moment one professes admiration, or any degree of devotion ... the "fan club" has just grown, and then the question of one's own accountability comes into play.  Not to mention that the sins of the Church are still the residual sins of the world, of which even the wise Mahatma was guilty.  (as much as I respect him)
  

Stephen.
    
Essorant
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15 posted 04-15-2006 02:22 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

There is one thing I know about every belief that is truly believed in: that belief is true.
Grinch
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16 posted 04-15-2006 02:53 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
There is one thing I know about every belief that is truly believed in: that belief is true.


I truly believe youíre wrong.

Essorant
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17 posted 04-15-2006 03:40 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"I truly believe..."


How can I argue with that?  
That tells me that you have a true belief.  Just because I don't believe the same doesn't mean that it is false.  But since it is true seems to confirm what I know so far: every belief, that is truly believed in, is true!

Stephanos
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18 posted 04-15-2006 04:08 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Actually Essorant, that only tells you that he truly has a belief ... which is very different from having "a true belief". His belief cannot confirm yours if it contradicts it.  And even if his is true, that doesn't mean that ALL beliefs are true ... in fact it can't be if it is directly a refutation of what you believe.  Truth by definition is exclusive.  

So it actually confirms his belief rather than yours.  

You've told me several times (even recently I think), "I disagree".  That belies that you don't really believe your own philosophy.  But I know one thing, that in order to be consistent with your view, you can't even refute what I've just said.    

Stephen.
Essorant
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19 posted 04-16-2006 12:10 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"Actually Essorant, that only tells you that he truly has a belief ... which is very different from having "a true belief"."


There's no difference in meaning to me between "he truly believes" and "he has a true belief"  "he weakly believes" "he has a weak belief" "he strongly believes" "he has a strong belief"  Belief is substantiated by believing.  That is why it is called "belief" to begin with.  Although your belief is different from others, for larger literature-hoard, greater majority, and more propogation, that doesn't mean it is truer than anyone else's.  Other people believe in other religions just as truly as you believe in yours, that is, they have a belief just as true as yours, by believing which they hold sacred, in Nature, universal oneness, in divinity, and perhaps without a belief in any God/god at all.  That they don't have a bible, a majority of populations, nor advertise their religion and make mission to convert anyone, doesn't mean their religion or belief is anything less a religion or belief.  But when someone says that some belief is false, I think that is a bad manner.  Why and how should anyone dare to say or treat someone elses belief as false instead of true, when belief implies expressing the truth of one's own heart, and that truth in one person in something may be just as true for something very different in another?  Such a manner becomes disrespectful if hung upon and should be spoken against, but I don't think it is ever right to speak against anyone's belief, and certainly not  anyone for being a believer in that belief.

"His belief cannot confirm yours if it contradicts it. "

I think it can if it is true.  
I said that every belief that is truly believed in is true.  
What reason should I have to believe his belief is false, especially when he says it is true?   If someone says he has a true love for choclate, are you going to say that love is false, just because you don't have a love for choclate?  No.   Why then say someone doesn't have a true belief in something, just because you don't have a true belief in the same thing?  I don't think his love for choclate is going to take away your love for cheese.  Nor is his belief in Zeus going to take away your belief in Christ.  If someone can't feel well about his or her belief without calling other beliefs "false" what does that say about his/her manners in respect to beliefs?  

"Truth by definition is exclusive."

I don't think they are "exclusive".
They are just different shapes of the same thing.  A man and woman are different shapes of a human, in a wider sense, they are different shapes of an animal, in an even wider sense they are a different shape of the Universe.  That doesn't seperate them from the universe, but it distinguishes as a true and special part of the Universe.  I think different shapes of truth are similar.  
Every difference is a variation of the same thing.

"You've told me several times (even recently I think), "I disagree"."

When I say "I disagree" that is because I disagree with a specific statement or manner.  By no means am I trying to say your belief is "true" or "false"  
I already know it is true.


"That belies that you don't really believe your own philosophy."

How is it right for you to tell someone else what his or her belief is or is not?  
I don't think it should be much different if I said you believe in Zeus intead of Christ, despite everything you ever said.

  
Stephanos
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20 posted 04-17-2006 07:33 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Essorant:
quote:
There's no difference in meaning to me between "he truly believes" and "he has a true belief"


Suppose I borrowed John's Ford truck yesterday.  But Sam wasn't around to know the details.  Martha on the other hand, was with me when I borrowed it.

"Sam truly believes, though wrongly, that I borrowed John's Schwinn bicycle.  But Martha has a true belief that I borrowed John's Ford Truck."


The same thing also applies to "weak" and "strong".  Someone can weakly believe that their loved one survived a car accident, and yet that belief could be true.  But someone's belief that the sun revolves around the earth, is very weak in light of the discoveries of Copernicus.  Someone can strongly believe that they are Jesus Christ, and not be.  But the argument that Jesus Christ existed is a very strong one.  


If you deny the differences here, you have just denied not only the world of grammar, but also the world of men, potatoes, and cats in which you live from day to day.  If it comes between reality and philosophy, go ahead and ditch your philosophy.  Some philosophical ideas are just wrong, despite the fact that they can seem so enchanting.  And the idea that every proposition is true, is one of them.  

and I truly believe what I'm saying here  ...     So how can you argue?


quote:
But when someone says that some belief is false, I think that is a bad manner.


But what if someone truly believes it is a good manner?  Your retreat from true and false, into questions of good and bad, does not prevent you from drawing the line.  You're still drawing lines of belief, even if they are twice removed.  You still have to ask whether or not your estimation of what is "bad" is true.  If not, you're only giving me autobiography, not philosophy.  


quote:
but I don't think it is ever right to speak against anyone's belief, and certainly not  anyone for being a believer in that belief.


Caught ya.  You just spoke against my belief ... because I truly believe that it is sometimes right to speak against someone's belief.  And you do too, or you wouldn't have done so.  


quote:
If someone says he has a true love for choclate, are you going to say that love is false, just because you don't have a love for choclate?


Of course not.  You're talking totally subjective now, concerning taste.  But wouldn't you admit that that's a different kind of question than asking whether or not that brown stuff is actually chocolate or not?  


I work as a Registered Nurse.  And we take a lot of lab specimins, including collected stool.  (I don't want to gross anyone out here, but bear with me).  I played a joke on a secretary once, by putting some melted Reeses chocolate in a specimin cup, and setting it on the desk for her to key the lab into the computer (the usual protocol).  Needless to say, I wasn't very tidy.  I purposely smeared chocolate on the bag and a little on the desk.  She was quite irate, when she saw, right in front of her, what she thought was something other than chocolate.  For more than a few seconds, she truly believed that that lovely chocolate was fecal matter.  I still have lumps to prove it!.  But does that mean that it actually was?  No, she was wrong.  Well ... maybe more than anything she was wronged.  But she was still wrong.


I know, I know, that was rather naughty of me.  I am an avid prankster, I must admit.  She didn't take it so bad after she found it was really good 'ol chocolate.  She rather enjoyed the snack.  


quote:
How is it right for you to tell someone else what his or her belief is or is not?



How right is it for you to tell me it's not right for me to tell you you're not right??  


quote:
I don't think it should be much different if I said you believe in Zeus intead of Christ, despite everything you ever said.



It doesn't surprise me that you can't grasp the difference between a historical personage, and a mythological personage, if you haven't acknowledged the foundational difference between true and false.  Arguing the difference between Zeus and Jesus Christ is easy enough, but if your framework is mistaken, then arguments will be wasted.  


Don't misunderstand me, I don't deny there is truth present, even in wrong assertions.  For example, I believe your conclusion is wrong, but much in your premise is right.  Just because someone believes that it is possible to have wrong conclusions, doesn't mean that they see no shades of grey, no nuances and subtleties of truth in all views.  It's just that the truth in certain premises isn't always weighty enough to redeem the faulty conclusions that may follow.


Stephen.
Sunshine
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21 posted 04-17-2006 08:57 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

quote:
Belief:  When you want to believe in something you also have to believe in everything that's necessary for believing in it."
Ugo Betti, Struggle Till Dawn

Footnote: I read a lot on all of you in Philosophy, and other discussions, and in your poetry...but I could never hold a candle to your intricacies in this forum. Yet, I find you all fascinating. That is my belief.  Write on.

Knubian
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22 posted 04-18-2006 07:53 AM       View Profile for Knubian   Email Knubian   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Knubian's Home Page   View IP for Knubian

Quote:
------------------------------------------
"He who bears the interests of humanity in his breast, that man is blessed."

Johann Heinrich Pestalozzi
------------------------------------------

Source: MSN

Regards,
Knubian

Essorant
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23 posted 04-18-2006 11:20 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Stephanos,

Suppose I borrowed John's Ford truck yesterday.  But Sam wasn't around to know the details.  Martha on the other hand, was with me when I borrowed it.

"Sam truly believes, though wrongly, that I borrowed John's Schwinn bicycle.  But Martha has a true belief that I borrowed John's Ford Truck."


The deed that you borrowed the truck, and not the bicycle doesn't make Sam's belief false.  His belief is still true and right to sincerity.  If he said otherwise than what he believed, that would not be his true belief.  When he meets more facts, his belief about it shall most likely change, that is, if he believes differently for them.  But nevertheless it shall be his belief, true and sincere in his own way of believing, and to his best judgement.  It has no obligation to live up to facts that it doesn't have, know about, or if does, aren't what he believes in.   To say that his own belief is obligated to something beyond his own believing after whatever knowledge he has, is saying that his belief should not be his own anymore, but should be someone elses, some that believes only in one kind of way according to one kind of knowledge.  Most likely Sam may believe you and Martha after you say the fact is otherwise than what he believes and say what actually happened.  But that doesn't mean he will.  And if he doesn't that shall not make his belief any less true.

The main distinction is that a belief is up to the believer.  It is personal and up to him. It is his heart that fills its truth, not any one elses.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (04-19-2006 12:07 AM).]

Midnitesun
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24 posted 04-18-2006 11:27 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Mike
quote:
I don't mind Jesus, it's his fan club I can't stand.

-someone

hey, I said that a long long time ago!
 
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