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Passions in Poetry

Respect and Tolerance

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hush
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50 posted 04-25-2006 04:10 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Essorant-

Like Stephen, I work in healthcare (I graduate nursing school on May 5th... finally!).

Anyway, this weekend I cared for an elderly woman who was actively having hallucinations. It is unclear to me whether she is mentally ill or suffering from dementia- it really doesn't matter. The point is, she truly believed there were people in the room with me, watching me wash her. She also truly believed that "those guys" were throwing cigarette butts in a sensitive area of her anatomy. (The reality is, she has a diaper rash).

Would you go along with these beliefs? Would you say "Well, I don't see these people, but they must be watching you and seeing you naked." or "There are no burns on your bottom, but I'm sure the men will come back with more cigarettes."

Not only is it highly erraneous, but it is psychologically damaging to allow this patient to suffer from her delusions and hallucinations, especially when she responded with an "Oh, really? Okay." When I explained to her that there was nobody in the room, or that there was no smoking in the hospital. Of course, she later persisted in her "beliefs," but if even a momentary correction can give her peace of mind... who am I to not correct it.

When you are in the real world, you realize there are certain things you do... From a practical standpoint, certain things are true and untrue, I don't care how much spin you want to put on it.
Stephanos
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51 posted 04-25-2006 04:43 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Ess:
quote:
A woman says to a man that he is the only true lover in her life.  And she treats him in a way that makes him feel in no other way than that he truly is when they are around each other.  However at the same time she has another relationship with a man and tells that other man that he is the only true lover in her life. . . The two men don't suspect at all that she is seeing another man.  But on the contrary, as she treats either man respectfully and lovingly when she is around him his belief grows stronger everyday.  How and why is the men's belief false at any stage for believing what the woman says and does truly seem to be?


It's false precisely because each man believes that he has her exclusive love and respect ... while in actuality she is a cheat, and lying to both men.  


Does that make them blameworthy, or insincere?  Maybe or maybe not.  Maybe they've been deceived so artfully that they can't be blamed at all for their erroneous belief.  Or perhaps in their intense desire for companionship, they've chosen to ignore certain "signs" and be in a self-wrought denial.  I'm open to both of those possibilities, since they both happen in real life situations.  


But remember Essorant, we haven't even gotten to that question yet.  I'm still trying to establish with you that despite sincerity or culpability, beliefs can be really right or wrong, true or untrue.  It doesn't matter to me if you want to call it "knowledge" rather than "true belief".  For knowledge always involves belief.  So a wrong belief might also be called false knowledge.


Amy,

Congrats on Nursing School.  It thought you were already done.  It SEEMED like too much time had passed, for you to still be in nursing school.  But I was wrong.      

  
Stephen.  

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (04-25-2006 05:21 PM).]

Not A Poet
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52 posted 04-25-2006 06:20 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

Yes, congratulations Amy.

BTW, Stephen, does that make your belief that she had already graduated false?

Pete
Stephanos
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53 posted 04-25-2006 07:30 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Yes, it does.


Stephen.
Knubian
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54 posted 04-26-2006 06:36 AM       View Profile for Knubian   Email Knubian   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Knubian's Home Page   View IP for Knubian

I think you can believe something hard enough that truth doesn’t matter at all in some cases - as with Amy’s entry, a perfectly good illustration.  

Or say the recent case of the father whom believed that his eight year old daughter was possessed of satan and killed her.  Was this true?  How are any of us to know for sure.  

What is the type of “proof” a defense attorney would need to prove his client was right and just in taking his own child life?  There is no where to get the type of “evidence/proof” needed to prove his client’s innocence, therefore, the attorney’s job becomes making the jury “believe” his client is insane, or insane at the time of the murder, which is a lot easier than proving his “belief.”  

But what if the man is really not insane?  We who call ourselves sane… will choose within ourselves what to “believe” regardless to a outcome of a jury.  There is already a debate among my family and in-laws that this father may be using this satanic thing to cover up a string of violent acts, but nothing like that has come to light - yet, it‘s just what some “believe.”

The whole thing boils down to “belief,” not necessarily the truth or always something that is “provable“… although you do make some good points.  

Regards,
Knubian

Stephanos
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55 posted 04-26-2006 02:35 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
Or say the recent case of the father whom believed that his eight year old daughter was possessed of satan and killed her.  Was this true?  How are any of us to know for sure.


There are certain things we can know for sure, though.  In spite of the possibility of demon possession (which I believe is a real possibility), a person who kills an eight year old child is more likely the one influenced by Satan.  Murder is clearly prohibited in scripture, and men more often find wild excuses for it, than justification for it.  Also in looking at this, one should consider what the goal of demon possession is.  In it's simplest expression, it's aim is the destruction of a human life.  And if such is the case, then murder of a possessed child would only help toward that terrible end.  Scripturally speaking, exorcism is only possibility of deliverance for a demoniac child.


I'm not saying that I think for a moment that this child was really demon possessed.  But even if so, that wouldn't justify the action of murder.  So there are particulars which are anything but certain to us, but there are also revealed things that we can trust to cast light upon many situations.    


Stephen.    
JesusChristPose
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56 posted 04-26-2006 07:47 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

I understand what he means also.  But I disagree with him.  Do you mean that you merely understand what he means, or that you agree with what he's saying?  If you agree I'd be interested to hear your defense of the idea that no one can ever be wrong, or think false propositions."  

~ I am not sure if Ess means that "no one can ever be wrong," but I could be wrong about that.   

~ From what I am getting out Ess during this debate is that there are truths that can't be known, and these types of truths lead to either one's disbelief or another's belief.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Essorant
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57 posted 04-27-2006 12:17 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

There is only one thing wrong in the world: Bad manners.  

From the littlest insult to the cruelest deed.

Not people.  Not beliefs.

Bad manners.

That's the beginning and end of it for me.  

Stephanos
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58 posted 04-27-2006 01:11 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

But Essorant,

Manners (just another word for actions really) are often based upon beliefs.  

However, I agree with you that kindness and respect are very very important.

Stephen.  
Knubian
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59 posted 04-27-2006 02:28 AM       View Profile for Knubian   Email Knubian   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Knubian's Home Page   View IP for Knubian

Quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Class is an aura of confidence that is being sure without being cocky. Class has nothing to do with money. Class never runs scared. It is self-discipline and self-knowledge. It's
the sure footedness that comes with having proved you can meet life.

--Ann Landers

Source: Words of Success;
Funds for writers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Respect and tolerance is an issue that tugs at the heart of a persons’ soul.  It is patience and diligence, yet suffering the heart and mind to allow even the most un-grasping of ideals, words, opinions and knowledge to be vented by fellow persons.

Myself

Regards,
Knubian

Knubian
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60 posted 04-27-2006 04:38 AM       View Profile for Knubian   Email Knubian   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Knubian's Home Page   View IP for Knubian

Quote:
Stephanos
_____________
And if such is the case, then murder of a possessed child would only help toward that terrible end. Scripturally speaking, exorcism is only possibility of deliverance for a demoniac child.
_______________

My point here is, who is to know what was truly in this man’s heart, or that the little girl really was possessed?  How are we as bystanders, information gathers… those who believe and don’t believe to know the truth?  Do we wait to see someone’s head spinning around like on the exorcise, do we trust what others tell us, or do the fact that it can and have happened before guide our judgment of the situation?

It’s not a question of do possession exist, but whether a question of do we “believe” the father, why, and what “evidence/proof” he may have to prove to us that he himself is qualified to determine whom is possessed, or why not seek professional help.  After all, if he can determined that someone is possessed, then he should know that they need a exorcism.

Now let’s say if he and maybe four or five others killed the girl while performing their version of an exorcism, it is more believable of an intent not to kill, but to exorcise… that becomes believable.  I mean what’s his defense - “we were in the room, and she started crawling up the wall onto the ceiling… growling like a dog… foaming at the mouth… speaking in languages he didn’t understand… so I killed her?!”  

His “belief” is not going to hold water!  This is not like the “money senerio” you, Ron and Essorant was discussing.  That was a harmless debate on belief.  But this is something of a more sinister nature.  If this guy can get off, based on his “belief,” then how many more people can just based on their “belief…” kill?

Hay wait, I do have a few family members I’d like to exorcise off this planet, because “I believe” they truly are possessed!” lol

Regards,
Knubian

Essorant
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61 posted 04-27-2006 04:44 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Do people believe in doing evil?

Stephanos
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62 posted 04-27-2006 08:39 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Essorant,

I know from personal experience that it is possible to believe that doing evil is really good ... and vice versa (that's actually a very concise definition of sin).  Or worse, to believe that it doesn't matter anymore whether moral good and evil even exists.  People believe those kind of things, at various times in their life.


Stephen.  
Ron
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63 posted 04-27-2006 09:52 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Evil rarely comes with a name tag, and when one looks in a mirror, evil won't cast a reflection either. Indeed, most only recognize evil as evil when someone else is doing it. Usually someone we don't much like any way.


Knubian
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64 posted 04-28-2006 01:29 AM       View Profile for Knubian   Email Knubian   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Knubian's Home Page   View IP for Knubian

Quote:
-------------------------------
"The true lover of knowledge naturally strives for truth, and is not content with common opinion, but soars with undimmed and unwearied passion till he grasps the essential nature of things."

Plato

Source: MSN;
Daily Quotes
_______________________________


Quote:
Ron
------------------------------
when one looks in a mirror, evil won't cast a reflection either.
______________________________________


I equate this with Christ speaking on “seeing the toothpick in another’s eye, but missing the beam in our own.”  

Speaking from personal experience, I have hated something or someone strong enough before, to let myself go to the evils that I believe plague mankind, but being so full of hate, I failed to see my own responsibility in why the hate existed in the first place.  

I believe that deep in the pit of one’s self, where love has seemed to have separated itself from all other aspects of our lives, yet we can see no reliable truth, or a redeemable explanation of our hurt can be found, we blame and accuse others.  I also believe that other factoring shortcomings of life breed in this place and lend support to the blame and accusations and can cause that hate to turn to evil thoughts and later on if no help is found… to evil deeds.  

I think I was fortunate enough to hold my hate at evil thoughts, and subsequently being grasped hold to by my spirit before spiraling out of control… I was able to lay foundations to love something or someone other that myself.  But I also think that there is spacious ideology between hate and evil thoughts where a person can redeem peace and balance.  

Nor do I believe that they both are one in the same.  You can hate something or someone and not think evil of it or them… and still function in a productive; yet self-hampered way.  I think the evil thoughts comes with isolating one‘s self in that illusionary world hate and then allowing the hate stir in the same pot, thus becoming potentially evil deeds.


Regards,
Knubian

JesusChristPose
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65 posted 04-29-2006 11:03 AM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Back to the original quote of this thread:

"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."

~ That is what so many people do... and it makes me sick. Why?

Isn't that essentially lying to a person's face?

~ Why not just flat out tell that heathen, he is going to hell in a handbasket? If that is what you believe.


"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."
Essorant
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66 posted 04-29-2006 01:34 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Because telling someone he or she is going to hell is offensive, and if someone continue to do it, he is willingly offending and harassing that person.   Go ahead and believe it.  But when you declare it in someone's face, you are no longer just believing it, but you are willingly directing it at a person, and offending them.  Honesty doesn't justify that disrespect.

JesusChristPose
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67 posted 04-29-2006 01:50 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

So, than you are saying it is better to lie to someone's face or is there a middle ground to take?

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Stephanos
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68 posted 04-29-2006 08:10 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

There is a middle ground to take.


Stephen.
Brad
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69 posted 04-29-2006 08:11 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
Honesty doesn't justify that disrespect.


Yes, it does. Honesty doesn't justify changing the subject or changing the rules.

The difference isn't just in manner of speaking, it's also in when and where you do that speaking.

Example:

In a discussion on evolution, it does little good to scream, "You are all going to hell!" -- it's actually kind of funny when it happens.

If, however, there is a discussion on one's belief, wouldn't it be polite to tell the truth? In this case, of course, the manner of speaking becomes very important, not because you want to lie, but because you want it to matter.

Don't forget, one sign of respect is, in fact, telling the truth.

Stephanos
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70 posted 04-29-2006 08:32 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Thankyou for the clarity Brad.

Essorant
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71 posted 04-29-2006 08:43 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Believing someone is going to hell and publishing it as a declaration and statement about someone, in a society, such as at Passions, are two different things.  Believing is believing, and it may be done without giving anyone the finger.  When you stick the "you're going to hell" finger up at someone however, that is no longer just expressing a belief, that is publicly picking on someone with your belief.  It is not much different than spitting in someone's face.  You are not even talking about beliefs anymore, but you are personally isolating someone out, and making a judgement, that is not even yours to to make.  Since when does any man get to decide who is going to hell and who is not?   Do you know the whole man you are judging from head to toe of his soul?  Then who are you to try to declare what the fate of that soul shall be?  Furthermore, what is the virtue of telling someone he is going to hell?  Hell, according to its modern connotations, suggests eternal damnation, without any hope or way out.  It is the final end.  Period.  When one tells a person he or she is going to hell, that is not inspiring that person with any help to any good end, but instead making it out as if that person is now damned to the worst end from the point that is personally decided on, by the new Almighty god, Man, trying to judge the eternity of a soul, by an inch of this life.


Stephanos
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72 posted 04-29-2006 10:19 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

But Essorant,

That's a misuse.  That's the difference between someone making fun of a crippled child, and a physician telling the parents of child that he or she has a crippling disease.  


I don't know of any Christians who jeer at individuals, and tell them that they are definitely going to hell.  I do know of many fine and respectful Christians who have told me that hell is a certainty without the Gospel, and a real possibility for individuals including myself, and have been bettered for it through believing the truth.  


I think we all agree that truth in any instance may be abused and wielded injuriously.  But that belief gets confused with the belief that it is disrespectful to ever bring up the possibility of forfeiting God's salvation, heaven, the promises, forgiveness of sins, and eternal life (which is only the possibility of hell negatively stated).  And frankly I don't know which you are saying.  Sometimes it sounds like the one, and other times it sounds like the other.  If you're merely saying there is a right way, and a right heart, with which to communicate certain truths, then I am with you.  If you're saying that something difficult like the real possibility of damnation should never be communicated at all, then I can't agree.  So which is it?  Maybe you could clarify for me.


Stephen.  
JesusChristPose
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73 posted 04-30-2006 11:05 AM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"I don't know of any Christians who jeer at individuals, and tell them that they are definitely going to hell."

~ Live in the Bible belt for a while, there one will find many christians who do just that.

"I do know of many fine and respectful Christians who have told me that hell is a certainty without the Gospel, and a real possibility for individuals including myself, and have been bettered for it through believing the truth."

~ Whose truth? This goes back to what I believe Essorant was talking about... You don't know what is the truth, and won't know until after you die.

~ When christians used to tell me that I was going to suffer forever in a hellfire for not believing in their interpretations of a book written, translated and edited, over 2000 years ago, I would actually laugh and eventually feel pity for them.


"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

[This message has been edited by JesusChristPose (04-30-2006 11:50 AM).]

Stephanos
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74 posted 04-30-2006 06:11 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
Whose truth? This goes back to what I believe Essorant was talking about... You don't know what is the truth, and won't know until after you die.

Christians believe many things about "life after death" on the authority of one who has died, and rose again.  Are you telling me a blind man can't know when to stop walking based upon someone else's authority/ ability?  


And I'll also remind you that in another thread you just recently said:

"... it is bestowed upon me by the Spirit of God, to know with certainty, that the majority of ALL the HUMANKIND will BE SAVED. That includes most likely everyone on Piptalk"

You can't keep using relativistic arguments, and revelatory statements.  The two don't mix at all.  It's not a good consistency, if you know what I mean.  So which is it?


Stephen.
 
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