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Passions in Poetry

Respect and Tolerance

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Stephanos
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25 posted 04-19-2006 01:41 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Essorant:
quote:
The deed that you borrowed the truck, and not the bicycle doesn't make Sam's belief false.



Are you saying I did borrow the bicycle then ... even though I didn't?  


quote:
Most likely Sam may believe you and Martha after you say the fact is otherwise than what he believes and say what actually happened.  But that doesn't mean he will.  And if he doesn't that shall not make his belief any less true.


Then we have a different definition of "true".  You are making up your own.  What I mean by "true" is whether or not Sam's belief correlates with external facts.


quote:
The main distinction is that a belief is up to the believer.
  

I never said that belief wasn't in some sense "up to" the believer.  But the question of whether or not that belief is actually true, is often quite independent of the believer.  If a statement is soley about something external, why do you say that nothing external determines it's truth?  You're confusing truth value, with volition perhaps, or maybe sincerity.  But volition and sincerity, are separate issues.


I can be sincere and still be wrong.  If I sincerely believe that my car runs on Molasses rather than Gasoline, that doesn't mean that it's a true belief.  The determining factor is what happens when the key is turned.


I'll ask you again Essorant.  Why don't you believe someone can be sincerely wrong?  You wouldn't be so accomodating to a Taxi driver's opinion that you wanted to go south, when you really wanted to go north would you?  I'm sure you would turn him around, however politely.  Your philosophy doesn't work in real life.  


And I'm not even talking yet about what is the proper reaction to error in others, whether it be patience and kindness, or austerity.  So don't bring up the moral properness of being nice and respectful, as a support for your view.  So far as you and I are concerned, we haven't even reached that question yet.


So back to that bicycle that I never borrowed ...  Is sam right, regardless of the facts?


Stephen.
Ron
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26 posted 04-19-2006 07:54 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Essorant, when are you going to send that $5,000 you owe me? I know you have it. It's been over a year since you borrowed the money, and your failure to pay me back reflects very poorly on your character. Pay up, Bud.


Essorant
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27 posted 04-19-2006 02:36 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"Are you saying I did borrow the bicycle then ... even though I didn't? "

No, I'm saying that Sam's belief is true despite the fact that you borrowed something else than what he beleived.  

It was true for the truth and facts of what the belief itself had, what he truly believed, and knew was a true possibility, not "false" for not correlating to a fact he couldn't know to begin with: what you actually borrowed.

Presence in the belief:

The truth of believing
The truth of a possibility.
The strength of both.

Absence:
The knowledge of exactly what you borrowed.

It is the presence of its own truth and strength in the belief in something itself, that makes the belief true. That is both the truth and strength, and the true possibility believed in, make the belief true.  Whatever was absent from the belief does not define the belief itself.  There is no way that Sam could believe in what he didn't have: the knowledge of what actually was borrowed, even if he guessed the same thing that was .  It would still be the same thing, in the act of believing: a belief in a true possibility based on his best judgement, and knowledge of other things and strengthened by believing.
There is no way he could know that his belief were incongruent with what actually was borrowed.  And if he could know that his belief were thus, that would essentially take away the believing and replace it with certain knowledge, and therefore in no way believe in the possibility, that the bike was borrowed, instead of the actual fact that the truck was borrowed.  But the actual fact was not part of his act.  Therefore it does not make his believe false.  He didn't believe in any wrongness or falseness.  But he simply believed in a possibility, that is something all beliefs do.  To me the incongruency of the belief with the fact of what you did, doesn't make the actuality of his belief false or wrong anymore than the incongruency with Sam's belief makes the actuality of what you did false or wrong.  

"Then we have a different definition of "true".  You are making up your own.  What I mean by "true" is whether or not Sam's belief correlates with external facts."

I already mentioned in the "Belief and Science" thread that when I say "true" I do  mean "actual" My reasons are posted in that thread Stephanos, and also mentioned above too.  The external facts simply don't "incriminate" or prove that the belief itself is wrong or false.  One can't believe in something he or she doesn't know about, such as a incongruity with facts.  The incongruity of facts is simply an incongruity of facts, not a falseness or wrongness that is believed in or defines the belief.  


"If a statement is soley about something external, why do you say that nothing external determines it's truth?

But when you are speaking about someone's belief Stephanos, you are no longer talking about an impersonal statement or phrase or description, nor something external, but instead something that is always internal, spiritual, and personal.  Instead of saying "this or that is wrong" or "this or that is false"  You say "your belief is "wrong"  

You are blaming the innocent act of believing in something as being the wrong.
Instead of a wrong that is not believed in.
It is basically the same as saying "you believe in wrongness"

It is like saying someone that believes in someone because that person shows respect today, has belief that is wrong or false or in the evil itself, if that person believed in shows disrespect and is harmful tomorrow.   Or if one can't see an ice patch under the snow, so trusts there is soft snow as he stepped in so far, that if there is an icepatch his belief is false.  

I don't believe that people believe in anything false or wrong.  But that doesn't mean people don't fall among wrongs, despite the true and good beliefs they have.  That's what happend with Adam and Eve in the bible, that's what happens to them today as well.  Adam and Eve don't believe in wrongness.  But that doesn't mean they don't fall into it.

"But volition and sincerity, are separate issues. "

I can't agree with that at all.  Volition and sincerity are two most important truths of every belief.  As truths therefore they define the belief as true.

What is aloof and not even known by the belief, however, is the actually fact of what happened.  Therefore how, does that fact, determine the belief at all?
  
"I'll ask you again Essorant.  Why don't you believe someone can be sincerely wrong?  You wouldn't be so accomodating to a Taxi driver's opinion that you wanted to go south, when you really wanted to go north would you?  I'm sure you would turn him around, however politely.  Your philosophy doesn't work in real life."

I am not willing to call randomness belief, Stephanos.  If you pick something out randomly, you are not picking it out by belief, but picking out by chance.  Therefore saying "north" "south" etc, has no substance to me.  It is just a random guess, not a belief.  Even if you say a random guess may be a belief, it doesn't stand for sincere or strong one.  

"So back to that bicycle that I never borrowed ...  Is sam right, regardless of the facts?"

Sam is not right or wrong.  He is human.

The belief is not right or wrong.  It is true.

What about the facts though?

Sam believed that you borrowed something else than what you did.  That is a difference that includes no wrongness or falseness.  A belief can't be blamed for not being the same as a fact, or a certain knowledge of fact, because if it were the same I don't think it would even be a belief anymore.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (04-19-2006 04:36 PM).]

Essorant
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28 posted 04-19-2006 02:59 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"Essorant, when are you going to send that $5,000 you owe me? I know you have it. It's been over a year since you borrowed the money, and your failure to pay me back reflects very poorly on your character. Pay up, Bud."

But if you believe in that, that constitutes the spiritual truth of your belief,  not the actuality of another fact, such as owing money.  
Your belief is true.  But that doesn't mean your saying or argument is.    


Stephanos
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29 posted 04-20-2006 12:04 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
Your belief is true.  But that doesn't mean your saying or argument is.


Now you are forced to separate saying and belief, because like Ron and I, you too see the necessity of factual truth somewhere.


Only one problem with that, what if a person believes what he says, or believes in his argument?  Then inadvertently you've just admitted that his belief may not be true.


Why?  For honest people, what is said, or argued, is synonymous with belief.
  

Really I think this argument is pretty well over, since it's obvious you're only left with semantical sleight of hand ... as the last desparate moves before checkmate.  One final question though ... Can you define "true" in the sense that we are speaking of?  What does true mean?


Stephen
Stephanos
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30 posted 04-20-2006 12:31 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
But if you believe in that, that constitutes the spiritual truth of your belief,  not the actuality of another fact, such as owing money.

I just noticed what you're doing here.


You're only refusing to admit that beliefs may be about mere facts.  Ron just mentioned a belief ABOUT owing money.  And you just told him that it's not really about that at all, but rather about something spiritual.  In which case you're only correcting him, rather than describing his belief. Because his belief was stated quite otherwise by him (with no fuzziness).  It was about the fact of owing money.  


Go ahead Essorant.  It won't hurt really.  Tell him he's wrong.  That you don't him any money.  Correct him and tell him, that you owe ME the money.  At least I believe you do, so that makes it true.    


Stephen.
Knubian
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31 posted 04-20-2006 06:09 AM       View Profile for Knubian   Email Knubian   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Knubian's Home Page   View IP for Knubian

Quote:
--------------------------
The arrow belongs not to the archer when it has once left the bow; the word no longer belongs to the speaker when it has once passed his lips."

Heinrich Heine
---------------------------

“Truth exceeds belief!.. and one is truly not the other, yet the belief that something is true has brought about many successes as well as failures”

Myself

Regards,
Knubian

Essorant
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32 posted 04-21-2006 01:27 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I believe you owe money.

You owe money.


Same thing?

Essorant
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33 posted 04-21-2006 01:35 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"You're only refusing to admit that beliefs may be about mere facts.  Ron just mentioned a belief ABOUT owing money.  And you just told him that it's not really about that at all, but rather about something spiritual.  In which case you're only correcting him, rather than describing his belief. Because his belief was stated quite otherwise by him (with no fuzziness).  It was about the fact of owing money"


Stephanos,

I didn't mean Ron's belief wasn't about owing money, but that it (the fact of the belief) doesn't constitute the fact or actuality of owing money itself.  

Ron
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34 posted 04-21-2006 09:28 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Nothing has changed, Essorant. You still owe me $5,000. If you don't resolve this issue, and do so in fairly short order, your reputation and character are going to be forever marred. Pay up.
Essorant
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35 posted 04-22-2006 09:20 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

You may write it in a Holy Bible if you will.  But it may not make me believe it.
Stephanos
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36 posted 04-23-2006 01:01 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Essorant,

Of course not, because you know it's not true that you owe Ron money.  That was Ron's point.  Even if Ron really believed this, his belief would not merit the same response as a "true" statement would.


Stephen.
Essorant
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37 posted 04-23-2006 10:43 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

How can Ron believe in a falseness that he doesn't even know about?  
If he truly believes what he says, it is because he truly believes in trueness, and the specific thought, saying, statement, appears to be true, therefore he uses it.  How does that make his belief in the wrong?  What belief doesn't do the same?  Once he knows there is a wrong, his belief shall change.  That is because it is true and good, not false.
JesusChristPose
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38 posted 04-23-2006 12:30 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

I understand what you mean, Essorant. At least, I do.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Stephanos
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39 posted 04-23-2006 02:24 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Ess:
quote:
How can Ron believe in a falseness that he doesn't even know about?


It's not the falseness that he doesn't know about, but rather it's the truth that he doesn't know about.  It's that very lack of knowledge which is helping him to believe a falsehood.  The very definition of falseness is characterized by that irksome disassociation with the facts.


A more pertinent question would be:  How can Ron's belief be true, if he doesn't know that you actually owe that money to yours truly?        


quote:
f he truly believes what he says, it is because he truly believes in trueness


All you've really said here is that 1) Ron has a belief and 2) that he believes in trueness as a concept.  But that's descriptive of even those who are wrong in their beliefs.  


Bart believes the moon is made of blue cheese, rather than dust and rock.  Three things are obvious to me here:  1) Bart "truly" has a belief, 2) Bart believes in trueness as a concept, else he wouldn't choose one thing in opposition to others.  and 3) I'm not chomping at the bits to go and open a Salad Bar on the moon.


quote:
. . . and the specific thought, saying, statement, appears to be true, therefore he uses it.


Yes ... the keyword: APPEARS to be ...  Why do you deny that there can be a discrepancy between appearance and actuality?  Are you telling me that you don't believe that optical illusions can cause auto accidents?  


quote:
How does that make his belief in the wrong?


Not one of the things you mentioned makes his belief wrong.  What makes his belief wrong, is the fact that you don't owe him that sum of money which is rightfully mine.        


quote:
Once he knows there is a wrong, his belief shall change.


But isn't it his belief which was "wrong", and not the independent fact.  That his belief needed to change in order to conform to something outside of itself, is proof that it wasn't true.  If it was true already, why the need to change?


quote:
That is because it is true and good, not false.



It changed because it is true and good?  No it changed to become true and good ... otherwise there would have been no need to change.  But once changed, once in conformity to facts, it has become true.  


JCP:
quote:
I understand what you mean, Essorant. At least, I do.


I understand what he means also.  But I disagree with him.  Do you mean that you merely understand what he means, or that you agree with what he's saying?  If you agree I'd be interested to hear your defense of the idea that no one can ever be wrong, or think false propositions.  


Stephen.
Stephanos
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40 posted 04-23-2006 02:37 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Alas, I've got the Sisyphus Syndrome it seems.  But there's one cure for that, actually ... rock skipping!  I'm walking to the shore even now.
JesusChristPose
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41 posted 04-23-2006 11:55 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Yes, you better go, but try not to get in too deep.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

[This message has been edited by JesusChristPose (04-24-2006 12:03 AM).]

Brad
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42 posted 04-24-2006 05:28 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I go nuts reading this thread.

Doesn't it really come down to conflating two uses of the word 'true'?

sincere belief

accurate belief

Stephanos
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43 posted 04-24-2006 09:16 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Yes Brad, but the two aren't mutually exclusive.  I'm more talking about the distinction between accurate and inaccurate belief, which is what Essorant is seeming to deny.  I've already conceded, many times, the importance of sincerity. My problem is not when someone uses a term with another sense of meaning.  My problem is when someone denies any other meaning, or the validity of another meaning in it's context  ... even when painstakingly explained.
JesusChristPose
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44 posted 04-24-2006 10:40 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Hey Stephanos,

Have you read Gulliver's Travels yet?

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Stephanos
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45 posted 04-25-2006 12:25 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

JCP,

I have only read excerpts.  But I'm aquainted well enough with the story line.


If you've got something to say about Gulliver's travels, then don't let the fact that I haven't read it, stop you from what you want to say.  I use literature frequently, to make philosophical points, regardless of whether others have read.    


Stephen.
Essorant
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46 posted 04-25-2006 02:02 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"It's that very lack of knowledge which is helping him to believe a falsehood. "


Lack of what knowledge?  
Do you know something he doesn't know about his own money affairs or not?  Or my money affairs?  Please enlighten us if you do, so we can settle this affair more smoothly    


"A more pertinent question would be:  How can Ron's belief be true, if he doesn't know that you actually owe that money to yours truly? "

Are you saying his belief is supposed to be a knowledge about what is in question instead of belief?  

"Yes ... the keyword: APPEARS to be ...  Why do you deny that there can be a discrepancy between appearance and actuality? "

Because if something appears good and seems good, I believe it is.  How and why shouldn't I?
There is no reason to believe something is false if it doesn't at all seem and appear to be.  How can my belief be false when I go by everything something seems and appears to be?  Likewise if everything in Ron's accounting-books appears and seems to suggest that I owe him money, how and why is he or his belief wrong for believing thus?   How can a belief be false for believing in a potentiality of truth, by surrounding knowledges?  Isn't that what believing is about?  If you expect someone to know the actuality in question instead of believe in a potentiality, aren't you demanding knowledge instead of belief?  What do you need to believe in, if you know everything?


"What makes his belief wrong, is the fact that you don't owe him that sum of money which is rightfully mine. "

Prove it!

[This message has been edited by Essorant (04-25-2006 03:01 AM).]

Stephanos
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47 posted 04-25-2006 11:13 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
Likewise if everything in Ron's accounting-books appears and seems to suggest that I owe him money, how and why is he or his belief wrong for believing thus?

You're assuming way to much here.  Of course your explanation works with the best examples, because that which is best supported by evidence typically turns out to be true!  But to be sufficienty explanatory, your idea has to work with ALL examples, even the worst case scenarios.  Let's look at a not-so-good example, where it may appear to Ron to be true, and yet still lack sufficient evidence:  What if, after Ron's ledger showed he's $5000 short, someone else deceitfully suggested to Ron that it was YOU who owed him the money.  Ron, being gullible and forgetful like he is, simply believes it without sufficient evidence.


The mistake you're making Essorant, is in assuming that every thing which is believed has sufficient support in reality.  If that were the case there wouldn't be criminal courts, insane asylums, or even wrong answers on school tests.


quote:
Prove it!


My point exactly!  It's not enough for you, that I merely believe something.  There must also be a correspondence to reality, else you rightfully don't want to believe me.  The fact that you say "Prove" proves that some things are true and some things are false.   Why would you have a determining test of proof, if all things believed were already true, by virtue of their belief?


Ron, excuse me for insulting you for no better reason than my illustration.          

Stephen.
Essorant
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48 posted 04-25-2006 12:38 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"The mistake you're making Essorant, is in assuming that every thing which is believed has sufficient support in reality.  If that were the case there wouldn't be criminal courts, insane asylums, or even wrong answers on school tests."

If he believes in something, that says there is sufficient support to lead him to believe in it.  What other support does a belief need to live up to?  
How is it right to say that his belief is wrong or false, when it is the belief he has, and a belief based on the sufficient support to make him believe?  

"The fact that you say "Prove" proves that some things are true and some things are false."

My argument was never to say somethings aren't "false"  But to say that beliefs aren't one of them.  
People's beliefs are true because they are true to believing and true to something sufficient to make them believe.  They can't be expected to live up to facts and actualties they don't have.  Nor are they false for not having them.  


"Why would you have a determining test of proof, if all things believed were already true, by virtue of their belief?"

I didn't mean that beliefs being true froze them in time from change.  Beliefs change too.  
Proving something is not proving that a belief is "false" but instead it is proving that proof is true.   And with further proof and knowledge, further beliefs shall come too.  

Essorant
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49 posted 04-25-2006 12:41 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Consider this:

A woman says to a man that he is the only true lover in her life.  And she treats him in a way that makes him feel in no other way than that he truly is when they are around each other.

However at the same time she has another relationship with a man and tells that other man that he is the only true lover in her life.  And she treats him in a way that makes him feel in no other way than that he truly is when they are around each other.

The two men don't suspect at all that she is seeing another man.  But on the contrary, as she treats either man respectfully and lovingly when she is around him his belief grows stronger everyday.

How and why is the men's belief false at any stage for believing what the woman says and does truly seem to be?

 
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