»
Discussion
»
Philosophy 101
»
where ignorance is bliss
| Philosophy 101 |
|
where ignorance is bliss |
|
|
Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan 
|
“No more;—where ignorance is bliss, 'Tis folly to be wise.” Sir Thomas Gray http://www.bartleby.com/106/158.html At some point is not choosing ignorance itself wisdom? |
||
| © Copyright 2006 John Pawlik - All Rights Reserved | |||
Ratleader
since 2003-01-23
Posts 7026Visiting Earth on a Guest Pass |
I choose ignorance every day. I buy gas for my car, but I don't study the refining process that made it, I use this computer but I'm virtually ignorant of the intricacies of the software, and I have only a basic knowledge of how the machine works. I have a fairly decent IQ and an adequate but not exceptional memory....but there's not enough capacity up there to hold everything about everything in my life, and certainly not the time to learn before I am once again at the mercy of objects and systems I know little of. For starters, maybe the time when we can choose ignorance, is when we know that we can trust in others, who aren't ignorant. ~~(¸¸¸¸ºº> ~~(¸¸¸¸ºº> ~~(¸¸ ¸¸ºº> ~~~(¸¸ER¸¸ºº> |
||
|
Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Let me put it another way: if you could take a pill to forget something or someone that is a source of sadness what from a purely egoistic view would be wrong with that? I know there could be responses that suggest that carrying the knowledge is somehow more heroic, but if all you’ve got is one life, ( and we’ve seen nothing in our own to suggest otherwise), what’s wrong with making it as pleasant as possible so long as it doesn’t consciously and directly involve harming another? What is the obligation to be unhappy? |
||
|
Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: Who is "we"? Got a mouse in yer pocket? I think "I" would have been a better choice for you here. You ought to know that from your studies.  Stephen. |
||
|
LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Let me put it another way: if you could take a pill to forget something or someone that is a source of sadness what from a purely egoistic view would be wrong with that? I know there could be responses that suggest that carrying the knowledge is somehow more heroic, but if all you’ve got is one life, ( and we’ve seen nothing in our own to suggest otherwise), what’s wrong with making it as pleasant as possible so long as it doesn’t consciously and directly involve harming another? What is the obligation to be unhappy? John, you have truly touched me with this...thank you for this thread... if only it could be that easy, but unfortunately, taking a pill is in my way of thinking, a temporary fix...we must somehow learn to deal with the saddness then lay it aside, and blooming from it... not heroic, simply learning how to let go and accept? Yes? |
||
|
serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
One pill doesn't do it anymore.  In fact, I just ate the second one early. And there would be no problem with that if I could stop at a magic number. There will come a day, when two doesn't work, so three will have to, and onward and upward until Merck makes better pills or I die. And then, I suppose my children will be swallowing pills so that they can close their eyes briefly to forget about the sight of their overdosed mother. Is ignorance bliss? Oh...you betcha. I warned my niece and nephew to just throw out their mother's sheets after the coroner's office removed her body last Easter. I should have done it myself, but we were not right in the head that day. But after washing my sister's linen's, my nephew discovered a horrifying new phenomenon as he pulled them out of the dryer--he knows now, how those images on shrouds are made... and John? I don't mean this to sound bitter. I don't particularly feel bitter. After all, I just ate two pills. What I feel is nothing. It's a delicate balance though. So you'll not find me sermonizing anyone's choice on how they get through their lives anymore. Some might say I am a better parent zoned out on zanax than in a cycling state of anxiety, hysteria, and depression. I don't know. Maybe I just appear better. And just so you know, and I swear this just happened, my mother-in-law is staying with us, and today she is going through some of the things she salvaged from her home from the floodwaters of Katrina. One of the pieces of jewelry was a gift given to her from her deceased daughter, Debra, who died of AIDS over a decade ago. She told me Debra had begged her mom to buy it for her, but my mother-in-law had said "no" (She thought it was tacky.) So Debra stole it from the store they were shopping in and gave it to her mother a block further down the street. It is a little pin with rhinestones that says: "Don't Worry.  Be Happy."(I look to the ceiling and shake my head and smile.) But what you ask did provoke some thought here, as I wonder of the one law of Wicca: "And as thou harm none, do as thou wilt." So...how much responsiblity do we owe those who love us? I dunno. I'm just glad I ain't the boss. |
||
|
hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
I didn't view this question as a realistic challenge of psychotropic meds... but maybe it is? I see this as being uncannily similar to Eternal Sunshine on the Spotless Mind. I see literally erasing memories as problematic, even from an egoist viewpoint. I mean, how well would it serve me to, say, erase every boyfriend after a breakup? I'd go into each new relationship with a renewed naivete... a new virginity... but by the time one hits a certain age... wouldn't wisdom and worldliness (at least to some extent) serve better? Another example... my mom's dead. This causes me pain, and guilt, and etc. etc. so why not just erase her from my memory? Well, for one, unless I erased the knowledge of the birds and the bees, there would be a serious logical problem with never having had a mother. I would ahve to invent a story, or have one invented for me... this has nothing to do with heroics, it's just plain a) more trouble than it's wprth and b) to address Karen's point... I think it's unfair to her memory. Why even live if poeple will simply erase you when you're gone? |
||
|
serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
smiling "I see literally erasing memories as problematic, even from an egoist viewpoint. I mean, how well would it serve me to, say, erase every boyfriend after a breakup? I'd go into each new relationship with a renewed naivete... a new virginity..." hush? I apparently have that ability, (almost exactly as you describe (except for the part about the hymen  ) and it's the source of my suffering in relationships.And I agree, that my experimental coping mechanisms are unfair to her memory. Afterall, it's how she was coping with my father's death. I just quite honestly don't have a clue as to how to do otherwise. It seems to be the lesser of two evils, and she and I even discussed the paradox of this previous to her death. All I know is that I am, at the least, functioning. I can't intellectualize my adrenaline levels down to normal levels. I used to teach meditation, and I cannot meditate myself out of this. So...shrug. I'm taking the zanax. I take the B-12. I take the syrequal on the really bad nights. I take Valerian. But most importantly, I'm taking one day at a time. *peace* |
||
|
hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Karen... you got me all wrong. I, too, started eating pills after my mom died. That's not what I mean. Like I said, I took the original question to be more of a hyperbole... I mean, your Xanax supposedly makes you not freak out, and my Paxil supposedly makes me less depressed.I wasn't saying anything you did was unfair to anyone's memory. I was talking about my mother. That's none of my business, and anyway, we all have to define that for ourselves. Besides, we tend to be our own harshest critics, and the things I did not do for my mother still plague me with guilt, while my friends look at me with pity and say "Oh, honey, it's not your fault!" I would say the same to them, and believe it when I said it to them... but it doesn't matter. I ain't buying it. So the question becomes... should we remain guilty and tortured? I thik it puts an interesting spin on the original question... sure, it might be easy to say we'd erase a cheating lover from our memories... we don't deserve that pain. But should I erase putting my mother in a home and letting her die from my memory? (I know, I know... it wasn't my fault... *chuckle*) Do we deserve a reprieve from the suffering we brought onto ourselves (or worse) onto other people? What if I cheated on my lover... should I be able to erase my painful memories of the pain I caused him? I'm not talking about psychotrpoic drugs here. I believe everyone has the right to healthcare... we were talking about ethics in a nursing class yesterday, about how a drunken trucker killed a family in a car accident on a notorious stretch of road... they sent him to an area hospital. Well, turns out one of the people he killed was a nurse at thishospital, and her co-workers had to care for him. His carelessness caused his injuries, and not to mention, took several lives. But he was entitled to the healthcare. I guess that really has nothing to do with having a psychological condition, I just happenned to think of it. But managing emotional pain and wiping the slate clean in a hypothetical sense are two different things, and two different moralities are involved. |
||
|
serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Aw hush...you know how much I admire you. I truly do. And God/dess grant me the serenity to not apologize, as I am apparently gonna get a paddling for every sorry, "sorry" I express. psychotropics...I have been adamently anti brain chemical complicity, but I have to take that back. It's just that I found not a single one that works for me. I can't even take Paxil--and that is just me folks--I had to tell the doc that if he prescribed antidepressants, then he needs to make sure my disaster medicaid also covers "spackling" for the walls--cause sure as I'm typing this I'll be on that stuff for two days and then punch holes in the drywall. I'm not even sure what I was trying to say, except that we are individuals, with very complex individualistic chemical compounds, reactions, and interactions going on inside of us. And if someone wants to know if I am crazy, I have to respond, define with me "normal", normal for ME--and then we go forward from there. I just had a bad day. whew. yeah...and I'm not saying it's tougher for me, I'm just saying it was tough. and ignorance, yes, was bliss. |
||
|
hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Karen...? Not sure why you want to apologize? I know you're not allowed , but, uh, what do you ahve to even think about being sorry for?I was re-reading the original question: 'What is the obligation to be unhappy?' Well... yeah... hence the drugs! The obligation is.... my endless tendency to ruminate? The belief that I don't deserve to be happy? And from an egoist standpoint, would miring myself in misery actually fulfill my deepest beliefs... or, are those beliefs a symptom? Should the symptom be treated, or fulfilled? Or should we all just not worry, be happy, and go on our merry way? I'm so confused. Are we supposed to be talking about dysoptian mind erasure, or psychotropic drugs? Or are we talking about whether they are the same thing or not? *shakes head* |
||
|
serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
"And from an egoist standpoint, would miring myself in misery actually fulfill my deepest beliefs" There's a term for that. It's called "learned depression." Write me. I'll dig out the specs of the testing, whereupon dogs were given shock treatments in the seventies--one group was shocked no matter what--the other group learned the "secret way out". The dogs with no recourse became depressed and died. Learned depression. No smilie here. |
||
|
serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I think I'm allowed to apologize this time, sans paddle for not answering this question:Q. "Are we supposed to be talking about dysoptian mind erasure, or psychotropic drugs?" A. "I think we are questioning the difference." Now. A smilie. |
||
|
Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
There's also a big difference between genuine forgetfulness, and repression. Even most psychologists tell you that repressing memories is unhealthy. And remember this (don't forget it) ... if you remember forgetting, then you're only forgetting that you remember. I was trying to be funny there, but if you analyze it, it's really true. Stephen. |
||
|
Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
So the real question is, quote:I would think that if I had a choice not to be ignorant, then I would certainly be a "know all" type of person. But just how much can we all know at any given time? quote:So, truly, I don't know that other than by choice, were I to fully educate myself 24/7, that I'm not going to be ignorant of something, sometime, of something that someone else has learned, one way or another. And it just struck me how cruel the word "ignorance", or to be called ignorant, truly is. No wonder Sir Thomas Gray required some bliss. [This message has been edited by Sunshine (03-26-2006 08:59 AM).] |
||
|
Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Nothing is permanent. Nothing is perfect. Nothing is finished. |
||
|
Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Nothing would sum it up, Reb! |
||
|
Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
I'm actually speaking to Huan in a language he knows... about Wabi Sabi Kari. Which is about being in the moment and the beauty and melancholy in the transient. We can either be so consumed with the past or so apprehensive about the future that we lose the impermanence of the now and miss the cherry blossoms. To forget doesn't bring enlightenment. |
||
|
Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
 wabi-sabi [kari] quote: That fits, too.  Ok, so I digressed. But I keep learning. [This message has been edited by Sunshine (03-26-2006 05:02 PM).] |
||
|
Knubian Junior Member
since 2006-03-25
Posts 35Louisiana, United States |
The cheating spouse I love – I can’t leave The dog I love that bites me whenever I try the feed it – I can’t bring myself to shoot it The hardheaded children – which I keep shelling out money for The un-appreciative boss – because I’m getting too old to seriously look for another job The best of the worst, politician’s – which I vote in office term after term Just how bliss is ignorance, if we just go along with the program and believe everything we hear, just to get along, and be called good citizen, animal lover, father, faithful employee, and registered voter? Boy! What a crock of monkeys in a barrel… and me without any pills. They say there’s a very thin line between genius and insanity. But what if we institute the same line-analogy between bliss of ignorance and not willing to be used, conned? Could you say that on the other side of the bliss of ignorance is mean-spirited-ness, and I beat my wife; I killed my dog; I abandon my children; I quit my job; And I don’t vote. - And oh yea, I’m on pills now? (No disrespect intended) How many of us play dumb to get what we want out of life sometimes; to get our professor to like us; for a cop not to take us to jail for speeding; to get the girl we love, and her parents to like us? Ignorance can be very blissful, lonely and then also to show a tolerance of others. It could be a hidden strength or dumbness. It could be the strong humbling ones-self, or a case of out-right enabling bad behavior in others. Whatever it is, we thrive for it in our daily lives whether were looking for the blissful, or looking to be bliss-ed. Regards, |
||
|
Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Sir Thomas Gray used ignorance in the sense of being unaware and it is in that sense I posed the question. From a purely selfish view, having the memory of something or someone that is a source of sadness erased by hypnotism, shock therapy, (or whatever science fiction writers dream up ), so long as it doesn’t involve conscious and direct physical harm to another, doesn’t strike me as a bad thing. People around you may complain about it being cowardly or failing some heroic or social ideal that sees a redemptive value in sadness, ( like a constant but not life threatening physical pain which you can eliminate with an operation or medication), yet if the goal is happiness or at least a pleasant life re-acquiring that “bliss” in fact seems a good. |
||
|
serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
thank you  from one who knows and wishes she didn't |
||
|
|
⇧ top of page ⇧ |
|
| All times are ET (US). All dates are in Year-Month-Day format. | ||
