How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 Philosophy 101
 Question
 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Question

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


0 posted 03-12-2006 03:01 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


Is depression mental illness?
What about sadness?

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


1 posted 03-12-2006 04:15 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

It's all relative. Just ask Freud.   (Or Albert.)

and smile, I discovered along my little journey that the surest way to get a shrink to talk is to ask for definitions.  

And yep. Shrinks drive me nuts.

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


2 posted 03-12-2006 10:15 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Depression and sadness are perfectly normal human emotions. Just like joy and happiness are.

Any emotion, however, can be a symptom of a medical condition when it doesn't reflect reality (often impossible to subjectively judge) and lingers longer than should be considered normal. Generally speaking, a feeling of depression that lasts longer than two weeks probably warrants a professional opinion.


Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


3 posted 03-12-2006 10:47 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

If you change the term to 'Clinical Depression' then yes -- it is a mental illness and is probably rooted in a physiological cause.

Nods to Blazey and Ron.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


4 posted 03-12-2006 01:20 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


“Rethink said the image of Churchill - who suffered bouts of depression - was designed to "portray a more positive image of people with mental illness". “


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4795832.stm


This is the article that elicited the question.  I would think Gallipoli
alone would have been enough to put him off his best at times.  Abraham Lincoln
suffered bouts of depression.  His true love died before they could marry,
his boy, the Civil War, men who thought him an ape and a wife who screamed
at and chased him with a broom.  Would we now prescribe him some happy pills so he could: “portray a more positive image of people with mental illness”?  Isn’t
a perpetually regardlessly blithe attitude indicative of something more suspect
and at times more dangerous especially in a leader?   Anyone remember Brave New
World and soma?

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


5 posted 03-12-2006 02:50 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"it's all in your head"

"It doesn't exist"

"take a pill"

I would rather have depression than those mentalities.

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


6 posted 03-12-2006 11:44 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I would rather have depression cancer than those mentalities.

Same mentality, and the VERY reason that suicide is the eighth leading cause of death for U.S. men.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


7 posted 03-13-2006 12:22 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi



What are the first 7?
What is the 9th?

During its experience of "downsizing"
the incidence of suicide among
middle aged Japanese men
grew so high it actually dropped the
statistics of life expectancy for the nation
as a whole.


Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


8 posted 03-13-2006 11:37 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

(Please delete this post. Thanks)

[This message has been edited by Essorant (03-13-2006 12:20 PM).]

Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


9 posted 03-13-2006 12:54 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
Same mentality, and the VERY reason that suicide is the eighth leading cause of death for U.S. men.



Ron, what did you mean by "same mentality"?


Stephen.
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


10 posted 03-13-2006 03:05 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Stephen, treating clinical depression is extremely difficult, in large part because no two individual's chemistry is precisely the same and any effective treatment often falls to trial and error.

Treating clinical depression is impossible, however, within any mentality that denies the problem is a problem. "Choosing" depression over treatment makes about as much sense as choosing to leave a tumor intact because radiation is bad for you. Sure, no one likes to be told they may have to take a pill for the rest of their life, any more than someone wants to be told they have to take insulin until the day they die, but in both instances the alternative isn't really an alternative at all.

Getting everyone the help they need is tough. Getting everyone to recognize they need the help is even tougher.

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


11 posted 03-13-2006 05:32 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


Japanese culture, Buddhism is focused
on the consciousness of the passing and
death of  things and beings, ( Catholicism
is no party either).  Would someone steeped
in that consciousness and its consequent sadness,
(sabi), be diagnosed as needing treatment?
How is depression determined
to be a chemical as opposed to spiritual issue;
if the pill, (soma), works?

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


12 posted 03-13-2006 06:37 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

What a bizarre and depressing way to express that.

I think it's better to express wabi/sabi as an emphasis on the transient nature of things.

After all, the Japanese are not as a people depressed. The celebrations during cherry blossom season are not about the death of the flowers but about their momentary glory.

Or to put it another way, a Japanese tourist traveled through Europe a couple of decades ago and was struck by the difference in religious art. In Buddist works, the Buddha was always smiling and seemed content, Christ was always depicted as suffering.

Don't know if that means anything but I thought it interesting.

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


13 posted 03-13-2006 07:38 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


“MONO NO AWARE.
The phrase "mono no aware" is basic to Japanese esthetics; it means, roughly, 'the sadness of things' and is comparable to Vergil's famous "lacrymae rerum." (Aware 'pity, sadness, pathos”

http://www.languagehat.com/archives/000846.php


For “sabi” Basho gives the example of an old man
in a new suit of armor.


their "momentary" glory

With the Japanese the experience of beauty
is tinged with that sadness.  
I know this subject Brad.

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


14 posted 03-13-2006 10:44 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Not questioning what you know, just questioned your phrasing.

Or perhaps, to give a famous example, you're looking at Mishima's suicide and I'm looking at the reaction of the crowd just before it.

hush
Senior Member
since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


15 posted 03-14-2006 02:19 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

"What are the first 7?
What is the 9th?"

I'm irritated right now because I can't find a binder full of research I did for a paper last semester, but I know I found a link on the American Association of Suicidology site to a stats page breaking down leading caues of death by gender, age, state, atc. The website is down right now, or I'd post a link.

The CDC stats I found for 2003 were not as in-depth as what I wanted, but it works. The top 15 causes of death, in order, according to their vital statistics, are:

Diseases of heart (heart disease)

Malignant neoplasms (cancer)

Cerebrovascular diseases (stroke)

Chronic lower respiratory diseases

Accidents (unintentional injuries)

Diabetes mellitus (diabetes)

Influenza and pneumonia

Alzheimer’s disease

Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis (kidney disease)

Septicemia

Intentional self-harm (suicide)

Chronic liver disease and cirrhosis

Essential (primary) hypertension and hypertensive renal disease (hypertension)

Parkinson’s disease

Assault (homicide)

[link]http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/pubs/pubd/hestats/finaldeaths03/finaldeaths03.htm[/link]

There you have it, though I'm not sure why you cared? What does it matter what the other causes of death are?

So on this list, suicide is the 11th leading cause of death... however, if I'm remembering correctly (and I may not be) my reasearch showed similar numbers to Ron's, with men at a higher rate than women, for various reasons, one of which being that men are less likely to verbalize feelings of depression and are more likely to mask them with behaviors such as substance abuse and aggression. Research also suggests (once again, I can't find my binder, but I'd be more than happy to e-mail you my 30-page paper, because I worked damn hard on it, and it's full of citations you can follow up on ) that socialization has a lot to do with men's tendencies towards repressing emotions and expressing them in these other ways.

I will say, this is an issue I've struggled with for years. For a very long time, I had trouble accepting depression as a mental illness. There is not actual test to determine a chemical imbalance in the brain, and I had a lot of trouble with this. Which isn't to say that I ever believed mental illnesses do not exist... psychotic disorders (to me) obviously need treatment. But affective disorders are different... where do you decide what's "the blues" or clinical depression? What is stress or being "high strung" versus an anxiety disorder? These are not easy questions, and there are no easy answers.

It seems, to me, and this is a completley subjective opionion biased by my own personal experiences, that family practice physicians have a tendency to prescribe psychotropic meds without proper follow-up. I believe this is a result of our culture of consumerism combined with the idea that if we throw a pill at it, it goes away. I don't see how the root cause of depression, be it situatinal or clinical, can be worked out without thorough psychiatric evaluation. Then again, I see it as totally appropriate to prescribe antidepressants in order to stabilize a person's mood while working these issues out in therapy, and then deciding if it is appropriate for the patient to be weaned from the meds.

So, long answer short, yes, I do believe depression is a real mental illness, however, I do think it is often diagnosed and treated improperly and/or irresponsibly.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


16 posted 03-14-2006 08:58 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


The crowd was a group of National Defense soldiers to
whom Mishima had made a speech about bringing back
the Japan of Bushido and empire; they called him crazy,
(which, after August 1945 and a US occupation which deliberately
sought, with significant success, to erase such notions in the next generation
as well as its humbled parents, is understandable).  It was after being
jeered that Mishima left the balcony and inside out of sight
knelt down and began to cut his belly in the traditional manner
at which time his captain beheaded him, (the captain then
did the same with the lieutenant beheading him).  The public
reaction to his message was unsympathetic however there
was a leap of sales in the sword market.  And as you said,
he is now famous, (the 1916 Easter Rebellion was hugely unpopular
among the Irish at the time but is now part of proud legend).

However this strays from the subject.

As an aside there was a survey that found that religion in
the form of tent revivals and such was as successful as
professional physiological treatment in “curing” people.  Born again . . .

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


17 posted 03-14-2006 12:01 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I believe that depression should should be dealt with most by helping each other deal with basic needs, finding a healthier approach to life, healthier enviroment, healthier diet, healthier influences, activities, social life, help to remove or minimize as much as possible drugs, alcohol, smoking and any other addictions and abuses that create depression among people because of their harm.  It is not isolated in the head or only in one physical condition.  But is the bad pattern of influences, choices and motions upon ourselves, and neglect in accomodating and serving our basic needs: living well, eating well, sleeping well.  Every person I know --especially myself--that has depression has a hard problem in all of these areas.   I don't believe that pills should be generalized as the "right" way to deal with this.  But helping people find a healthier lifestyle I believe is never wrong, and is something that we may all do.  The more we find a healthier way of life, the more we also have healthier body and mind.

LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


18 posted 03-14-2006 12:27 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

MONO NO AWARE

without saddness, depression, how would one really know the value of those miraculous happy moments...they go hand in hand, and granted, for some, MONO NO AWARE, exists more...but..I also echo Essorant's comment....have always felt like meds are a temporary fix...to an existing problem which must eventually be dealt with...but don't misunderstand, some meds are essential to life, depending on the health problem...there are needs for meds within the right perspective...

I believe we are what we think and believe...if we believe we are fortunate people...love life, look for the good in life and in others, we will eventually believe that this is true...

We tend to over anylize way to much, instead of simply accepting the inevidable to be...allowing us to move on, believing that eventually we may know the answers to our questions, and if not....pssst, so what?  Not every question has one reason, but many, and every single minute particle, and atom has a purpose, both mundane and significant..

Depression, gives us the opportunity to realize how sorry we feel for ourselves...until we look at the problems of others...and then realize, there is always someone worse off then we are, and so, in that we are fortunate.  Depression has it's place, if in moderation...I guess it all depends on where each of us want to be?

self exploration, perhaps allows us to see and like who we are...forgive what we have done...and go forth refreshed, a new, however, if we do not realize how we hurt others and the implications on the lives of others, then we will indeed stagnate our own growth.  You've heard it said, others cannot help one, unless that one wishes to help himself/herself? It's true...sometimes I think depression might be another word for words like self sympathy...denial...refusal to accept what is...perhaps not having the ability to realize, that we just can't have everything our way or control others to our way of thinking....
Allowance/acceptance are great big words, in a very small room...which opens doors...

I think, we've become a world of quick fixes...finding names and labels for everything that hurts, offends...and excuses unacceptable behavior.  But, I also believe mental illness, is not the dark abysis that people believed it was many years ago...as well as, mentally retarded...handicapped...etc.  We've come a long way...I believe all we can do is stop blaming others, do some self examination that is really honest...identify our own problems and needs as truly what they are, be it obsession, wanting what we cannot have and acting out like children, and really learn to like who we are...love ourselves for the good and bad in ourselves, as long as we try very hard not to harm others or control others...we can't, and never will...all we can do,is control ourselves...we are our own pilots...we are capable of amazing things...self healing...learning to love through understanding our own needs and hearts...and allowing others their own growth, regardless of where they are with the lives...the only thing that matters is what we're doing, and how we're doing it...we can care for others, but we can't make them...we can't deem ourselves their saviors...what we can do, is live our lives by example, to the best of our ability...and if we need help with that, then by all means seek help...there is certainly nothing wrong or humiliating by saying...I need help, I don't have all the answers...and then consentrate on making that flesh a better place to live...without deception, free of distrust...and willing to love the home we've made for ourselves????
Does that make any sense?
Huan Yi will be notified of replies
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> Philosophy 101 >> Question Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors