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Passions in Poetry

Pride

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Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
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Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


0 posted 02-16-2006 04:50 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Some one I was talking to today expressed a strict opinion that pride in such things as race, gender, sexuality, religion, culture, etc is always by its nature elitist and implies a belief or treatment of something as "better" or "superior".

Just wondering what your thoughts are about this.

Is it right to have pride in these things, or does pride only make us more given to prejudices and discrimination?


[This message has been edited by Essorant (02-16-2006 09:47 PM).]

Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


1 posted 02-16-2006 07:35 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

What does pride mean here?

I wonder if the difference isn't between the descriptive and the prescriptive.

A change in tone if you will.
Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
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Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


2 posted 02-16-2006 08:15 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Supposedly pride is the love of one's own excellence.  And having pride in something or someone is derived from association with the self, and the inflation of sense of selfworth.  If we have pride in something as a community, culture, religion, etc, or factors of birth such as race, skin colour, gender, sexuality, supposedly this is all from association with self and an inflated sense of selfworth.  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (02-16-2006 09:43 PM).]

Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
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Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


3 posted 02-16-2006 09:19 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Are people really "better" or "worse", more "good" or more "evil" than each other?
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
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Waukegan


4 posted 02-16-2006 10:15 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


Ask Hitler
Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


5 posted 02-16-2006 10:35 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Was Hitler "better" or "worse", more "good" or more "evil" than any other human?
Ron
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Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
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6 posted 02-17-2006 06:28 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Godwin's Law
serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
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7 posted 02-17-2006 10:08 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

From Godwin's law:

"There is a tradition of protocol in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread in which the comment was posted is over and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress."


Now I can't say for sure that this is record time for this particular forum, but it was pretty fast!

Thanks Ron, for the interesting link.

I have protocal problems.
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
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Waukegan


8 posted 02-17-2006 03:07 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


Hitler is like a corpse
thrown on the floor of a reading room
where armchair sages are discussing the nature of death.
And that in an environment where such realities are
inconvenient to debate is always unattractive.
Please guess what my parents would think of:

ďAre people really "better" or "worse", more "good" or more "evil" than each other?Ē

being seriously asked?
Itís almost as obscene as Holocaust denial.

Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
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Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


9 posted 02-17-2006 04:34 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I don't believe people are better or worse, more good or more evil than each other.  Am I wrong for believing that?  

Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


10 posted 02-17-2006 08:27 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Invoking Hitler AS Hitler isn't the same thing as making a bad analogy.  I don't find Godwin's Law to be in effect.  He's only used as a comparison to himself.  

quote:

Godwin's standard answer to this objection is to note that Godwin's Law does not dispute whether, in a particular instance, a reference or comparison to Hitler or the Nazis might be apt. It is precisely because such a reference or comparison may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued, that hyperbolic overuse of the Hitler/Nazi comparison should be avoided. Avoiding such hyperbole, he argues, is a way of ensuring that when valid comparisons to Hitler or Nazis are made, such comparisons have the appropriate impact.




No foul this time.
Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


11 posted 02-17-2006 08:29 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

I don't believe people are better or worse, more good or more evil than each other.  Am I wrong for believing that?  



It's your choice to believe as you believe.  But, by your own chosen beliefs if someone believes that some people are better or worse than others... they are.
jarrett
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since 05-10-2006
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Ut, USA


12 posted 05-11-2006 11:16 PM       View Profile for jarrett   Email jarrett   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jarrett

I know that many people quote from the bible, and if i'm wrong let me know if I shouldn't quote from other scriptures. But in D&C 122 verse 8 It quotes
"The son of man hath descended below them all. Art though greater than he?" We all chose to come down on earth to learn and grow. We all make mistakes therefore no one is better then any... that is my belief.
Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


13 posted 05-11-2006 11:33 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
I don't believe people are better or worse, more good or more evil than each other.  Am I wrong for believing that?


But you think it's better to believe that than something else. Otherwise, you wouldn't believe your own belief.  
Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


14 posted 05-12-2006 01:05 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Brad

That's like saying I can't use my own feet without thinking they are better than other peoples feet!  

I think I can!


Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
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since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


15 posted 05-12-2006 03:13 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Essorant,

Still, in a river, cement shoes will never work as well as scuba-fins       


Stephen.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


16 posted 05-14-2006 04:36 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

What about a bridge?  It may wear cement shoes to help it stand stronger in place at a river.  If it wore scuba fins it would slip out of place.
Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


17 posted 05-15-2006 09:18 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Did you know your website is not working?
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
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since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


18 posted 05-16-2006 12:31 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Thanks Essorant,

I'm actually working on a new website.
that was only a prototype.


Stephen.
 
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