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A Homer Question

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Stephanos
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25 posted 04-06-2006 12:57 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Ess,

I would say that when it comes to Biblical interpretation, the data we have presents us with such a duty, if one is not to be lop-sided.  I'm certainly not saying we're forced to be good exegetes of scripture.  Remember it's Uriah's argument that we're forced to do all things, not mine.  


Stephen.  
XOx Uriah xOX
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26 posted 04-06-2006 04:51 PM       View Profile for XOx Uriah xOX   Email XOx Uriah xOX   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for XOx Uriah xOX

Stephanos,
You asked and stated..."Are you willing to say that God is the author of sin?  That God tempted man to sin?  If we take sovereignty to the extreme, that's exactly what we have to say."
How can God's sovereignty be taken to extreme? God is either sovereign...or He is not.  And how does seeing God as sovereign imply that God tempts man to sin.  God simply made man to be subject to the temptation.  It is not God who tempts.  And it is not your true SELF that is tempted.  
I have no doubt that I am merely "proclaiming" my view.    As I stated...I see no error.  Your view is not "wrong" and  "mine" is of no matter. The Kingdom of God is within and does not come through observation.   Many seek it in an "outward" manner.  They look for the coming of Christ in an "outward" manner.   This too serves God's purpose. No doubt the way I view things is quite different.  But... When one sees the view from the Kingdom of God...yes...it all looks different.    In the Kingdom of God... There is only God.
Perfect peace to you.
Stephanos
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27 posted 04-07-2006 11:43 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Uriah:
quote:
How can God's sovereignty be taken to extreme? God is either sovereign...or He is not.



I think it would depend upon how God chooses to exert his sovereign rule ... by controlling every atom, or by giving man some freedom of choice.  Delegation of certain responsibilities doesn't necessarily imply loss of Sovereignty on God's part.  

What I mean by "carrying sovereignty too far", is theoretically devising our own verson of it, where God controls slavishly every molecule, and the will of man to the point that he has no real freedom to choose anything.  And I just don't think that's an accurate description of life, or the Bible.  And hey, I could be wrong, but it seemed to me that that's what you were saying.


quote:
God simply made man to be subject to the temptation.



Simply?  What do you mean by "subject to temptation"?  That man would be merely vulnerable to sin, or that man would have no ability to choose otherwise?


quote:
And it is not your true SELF that is tempted.


Now you're definitely sounding Eastern religious, rather than Biblical.  Where does the Bible teach that Adam had something other than a "true self"?  God said "The day that you eat of it YOU shall surely die".  

The most I can agree with you here, is to say that sin is a separate force (initially) that makes us become other than the individual that pleases and blesses God.  The most terrifying aspect of sin, is that we may indeed become, in character, like the Devil who is the Father of sin.  Thank God for the Gospel, for that very reason.  


quote:
In the Kingdom of God... There is only God.


But you are now in a dispensation where the Kingdom of God has come in inauguration, but is not yet consummated.  So there is more than just God.  There is an enemy of souls.  There is mankind in his imperfect and sinful rule.  There are angels both bright and evil.  

If you're saying that the Bible doesn't teach those things, and that they aren't experienced here and now ... we'll just have to agree to disagree.  If you're not saying that, I'm still not so sure what exactly you are getting at.


Oh, and about Jonah.  I would say that he was definitely strongly compelled to go to Ninevah.  And "strongly" is too light a word, I must confess.  But he could have died in rebellion, had he not cried out to God in the belly of the fish.  The thing is, if God were into forcing Jonah into doing his will, Jonah never would have been allowed to sail to Joppa to start with.  


Peace to you as well, Uriah.

Stephen.
JesusChristPose
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28 posted 04-08-2006 12:30 AM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

The Kingdom of God hasn't happened yet. Many Christians are in error when they believe that the Kingdom is within their hearts. A Kingdom, and the original Greek word will attest, is a place with certain boundaries, it is a geographical-physical place... and I don't see it. Do you?

In fact, Jesus preached the Gospel, and that gospel was the coming of the Kingdom of God, not let's save everyone today.

When the Kingdom of God does come, the overwhelming majority of all the humankind WILL be saved.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

XOx Uriah xOX
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29 posted 04-08-2006 03:51 PM       View Profile for XOx Uriah xOX   Email XOx Uriah xOX   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for XOx Uriah xOX

Stephanos,
      You state...
"Now you're definitely sounding Eastern religious, rather than Biblical.  Where does the Bible teach that Adam had something other than a "true self"?  God said "The day that you eat of it YOU shall surely die".

Ah   Forgive me for forgetting that the Bible began as Western thought.

and yes....The day that they ate of it...They died... to their true nature.

Its understandable if it is not seen  For as God said before the flood... "In their erring they are flesh."
But, remember that Jesus instructed us to pick up OUR cross.
If this is done...  When "you" also die to the flesh...at "The Place of the Skull"  ::smiles::    You will understand.
Yes...you are "formed" from the clay.  Jesus told the blind man...  "Wash away the clay... and you will receive sight."
Did Jesus NEED the clay that was placed over the man's eyes in order to heal him?   Or....is there more to consider here?

JesusChristPose,
As the scriptures state...The Kingdom does not come through observation.  But...You can tear that out is it pleases.  You can continue to wait for it to be seen with the carnal eyes.  Remember...All that is visible is temporal.   The invisible is eternal.  Is God's Kingdom temporal?  

As I stated in the beginning of my intrusion into this thread...  I see no error.
All is as ordered.    Just as "I" have no power to change the way I see.   "You" have no power to change your view.   It comes by Grace.   I only know that to His glory...You WILL see.   And when you do... There will be peace that surpasses understanding.

Until then...I will not attempt to interfere with that which God is pruning.  
Enjoy your view.
Perfect peace....to each of you.
    
JesusChristPose
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30 posted 04-08-2006 04:46 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"JesusChristPose,
As the scriptures state...The Kingdom does not come through observation.  But...You can tear that out is it pleases.  You can continue to wait for it to be seen with the carnal eyes.  Remember...All that is visible is temporal.   The invisible is eternal.  Is God's Kingdom temporal?"


~ What prayer does the majority of Christians pray? They pray for "... thy Kingdom Come... Yes, it has not come yet, but no it is not temporal. It is in the highest heaven as of this time, but it is to come to earth when Christ returns the second time, not as a baby in swaddling clothes, but as a KING and the earth shall be His Kingdom, then the promises made to Abraham and his offspring shall be kept.


"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Essorant
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31 posted 04-09-2006 07:38 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant


What makes you think Earth won't end up looking as dead as Mars?

Stephanos
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32 posted 04-10-2006 05:26 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Uriah:
quote:
Ah   Forgive me for forgetting that the Bible began as Western thought.



No, it didn't begin as Western thought.  But Near East Culture and Far East are significantly different.  Your idea that it is not the true self that sins, sounds more like the sages of the Far East, than the Semitic religion that God began.


And I do understand the necessity of getting beyond the flesh, and dying to the flesh, and being born of the Spirit.  But the Bible speaks of those things in those kinds of terms.  When you used the "true self" terminology, you're probably getting that from a tradition outside of the Bible.  But if you're merely using that terminology to restate the truth about dying to self and to the flesh, and being born again, then that's no problem.  I just misunderstood you.
  

quote:
As I stated in the beginning of my intrusion into this thread...  I see no error.


What do you mean "I see no error"?  Do you mean that you see no error on God's part?  Then we are in agreement.  I don't think anyone on this thread ever said or implied that.  Are you saying that you see no error on man's part?  Then you'll have to say that man never sinned, rebelled, and turned from his Lord.  

quote:
Just as "I" have no power to change the way I see.   "You" have no power to change your view.   It comes by Grace.


But I'm not assuming that God is not working in the hearts of men to change their views.  I know it comes by Grace.  But that doesn't mean that God doesn't speak to our minds through propositional truth.  "Come let us reason together, says the LORD".  And if you really felt that propositional truth, and correct interpretation of scripture weren't important to consider, I don't think you would have shared with us your views along with the many Bible verses you gave.  


quote:
I only know that to His glory...You WILL see.   And when you do... There will be peace that surpasses understanding.

Until then...I will not attempt to interfere with that which God is pruning.  
Enjoy your view.


But you already have interfered haven't you?  But don't feel so bad.  Funny that many godly men of scripture also tried to "interfere".  I mean they did speak and reason from scripture, rather than put forth a "you don't see yet because you don't have grace" disclaimer.  I still think you've taken a truth of scripture and run too far without the balance of other scriptures ... instead of letting "scripture interpret scripture", or taking "precept upon precept".  But if you don't want to talk about it, I certainly respect that.  And I wish you well.  

One thing we have in common, is believing that God's love is greater than scriptural disagreements, especially when the love of Christ is central.  And that we will see eye to eye, when we see him in his fulness.  

Peace to you,
and nice to have you around the forums,


Stephen.
Stephanos
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33 posted 04-10-2006 05:32 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Essorant,

Why do you think Earth ended up being so different than Mars even now?  Blind chance or divine decree?


Christians believe that Earth will not be extinct, for the very reason that God has put life upon it, ordained it forever, and has promised that it would never be uninhabited.  The present Earth of course will be renewed in a fiery eschatological fashion, and much will be different than before, but it is the promise of God's intervention which tells Christians that we are not merely an incoherent blip in the cosmos.  


But if you wonder why Earth won' t end up as desolate as Mars ... shouldn't you also wonder why Mars never got life to begin with?  Any way you look at it, you can't use Mars as a model, because there is no evidence that it ever held the diversity of life that Earth does now.  


Stephen.

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (04-10-2006 10:00 PM).]

Essorant
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34 posted 04-11-2006 08:04 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant


"Why do you think Earth ended up being so different than Mars even now?  Blind chance or divine decree?"

Earth is so different because it has life both by God and Nature. But that is no evidence that Mars was never given life.  


"Christians believe that Earth will not be extinct, for the very reason that God has put life upon it"

What proof do you have that God never put life on Mars?  


"But if you wonder why Earth won' t end up as desolate as Mars ... shouldn't you also wonder why Mars never got life to begin with?"

To me life on earth is the next best thing to evidence that life was possibly and even probably on Mars.  If such conditions of life may be on Earth presently that betokens a great likelihood in my mind that similar conditions were probably on Mars at one time.  I have much faith that Man shall make it to Mars in few decades hence.   In the far-but-not too-far future, school-children on their tour through the museum shall not just see fossils and evidence of life that was once on earth, but also fossils and evidence of life that was once on Mars too.  

Stephanos
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35 posted 04-11-2006 10:07 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
What proof do you have that God never put life on Mars?


Scientifically I don't have any proof, other than to note that there's no proof that there was (at least so far).  The "fossilized bacteria" found in those rocks are still being hotly debated about.  They are apparantly much smaller than bacteria on earth, and their shape is similar to naturally occuring mineral deposits, leading many to discount their significance.


quote:
In the far-but-not too-far future, school-children on their tour through the museum shall not just see fossils and evidence of life that was once on earth, but also fossils and evidence of life that was once on Mars too.



I have my doubts.  The environment on Mars is not really conducive to life as we know it on Earth.  Could it have been Millions of years ago?  I suppose, but then again probably not.  If you believe in abiogenesis (life arising from no life) and a strictly evolutionary schema, the chances grow ever slimmer.  If you believe in God, we are given no inkling of such previous life, biblically speaking.  I know that that doesn't mean much.  There's probably many such things which God chooses not to disclose at this time.  But life on Mars that just petered away, or fizzled out, would raise profound theological questions.  Was that an experiment, on God's part?  Could he not maintain life on Mars?  Is Earth a "second try"?  Does he just create life just to see it pass away?  


Those are probably the reasons I don't believe there was life on Mars as we know it.  And those are the same reasons why I don't think Earth will lose it's endowment of life.  But if you think that's fanciful, then I would say it's no more fanciful than believing there was previous life on Mars.


Stephen.
Essorant
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36 posted 04-12-2006 08:03 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

But I don't believe life on Mars just petered or fizzled out.  If life was on Mars and is now on Earth there must be a connection.  Somehow life or the energy needed for life was brought from Mars to Earth. And I don't think it was done by Martians in flying Saucers.  
I am open to both theological theories and physical-scientific ones, because I believe that changes in our solar system always include both God and Nature.  I imagine there may be a planetary transmigration from one planet to another, that is strongly induced by the behavior of the Sun.  If life moved from Mars to Earth, that would suggest a "shrinking" of the sun, so that as it shrunk the energy needed for life moved inward, and as it moved inward became closer to the Earth and finally thoroughly penetrated the whole planet facilitating all the conditions in which life or the energy of life might be embodied anew.   I think such a transmigration might even go back all the way to Pluto, if the sun was ever much larger at one time.  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (04-12-2006 09:25 PM).]

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