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Passions in Poetry

Love

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Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


0 posted 02-06-2006 05:15 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I can begin to explain love first by addressing jealousy. Jealousy could be accurately described as insecurity. But, for our purpose here lets call it anger. It is anger based in fear (as is all anger). All anger is about control. (We're angry at the copy machine, for instance, because we have no control over its' behavior.) We want something to be different than it is. Why? Because for some reason we are afraid of things not being the way we want them to be.

That fundamental desire for control, and for self being in control, is at the very root of our Western Culture's idea of romantic love. We find it every where in our literature, movies, love songs (i.e. baby I need your lovin, got to have all your lovin -- I can't live if livin is without you -- etc. etc. etc.) Those songs, ironically though, are not about the object of our passion -- but rather about us!

This is where the dichotomy exists. If "I" am the most important part of my love relationship and I think only of ME then the relationship is obviously doomed.

And, yet, if I become so co-dependent upon the other that I completely lose my identity then the relationship is equally failed. Under closer scrutiny though -- when that happens the relationship is still about "I". It's masked in that I seem to be so lost in the other that I don't exist. Whereas in reality what happened is I made MY possession of the other the most important thing in the relationship, and thus, even though self has been lost "I" is still selfishly seeking control.

If our egos are fed by someone and they make us feel strong and smart and sexy, and we appreciate them because they do whatever we ask, and they allow us to do whatever we want -- that is not loving them. It does not recognize the uniqueness or worth of the other person. Only their value to us -- because of how they make us feel. We could substitute anyone else who was willing and achieve the same result. Loving someone because they have similarities to us or because they become extensions of our ego is -- once again -- a round about way of loving ourselves. And, we would find ourselves very lonely in the end.

So then -- what is the proper model? My opinion is that "true" love of another is a state of being rather than an act of doing and is not predicated upon the actions of self or the other. It can never be lost. Even if the other's actions become so intolerable that we can no longer be with them it is never lost. This being true -- if we truly love ourselves -- and are truly "In-Love" with someone else we have no choice but to "set them free" --or rather -- recognize they are already 'free' totally separate individuals from ourselves.

You can't give to someone else what you haven't achieved in yourself. It isn't them we have to give freedom to -- first it is ourselves.

Truth and Potential
The human animal has the peculiar ability, unlike the other animals, to recognize the difference between how we are -- in truth -- and how we can be potentially. This knowledge is the state of being the Hebrews called "sin". All actions, desires, passions, frustrations, are attempts to make up the difference or outgrowths of our failing to do so. The Western culture has perverted the concept of sin into the actions and desires instead of a state of being. The unconditional love of "Christ Power" brought redemption because it balanced the difference, giving the recognition that one will always be somewhere short of potential and allows flexibility and peace in the balance between the two.

In love we recognize not only our own truth and potential -- but the truth and potential of the other. We must balance our desires and actions against the desires and actions of the other, not attempting to superimpose our requirements upon them, recognizing their freedom to pursue dreams and act for themselves -- and regardless of the outcome we stand as a shelter for them to return to and accept them for their truth and not their potential. In doing so we find balance in our love.

An American tourist found himself in a village in India at the time of the pilgrimage to the top of a sacred mountain. He decided to join them in the experience and had no doubt that he could make it to the top since he was in perfect physical condition. Yet on the journey, after only twenty minutes he was out of breath and could hardly climb another step. He noticed women carrying babies and old men with canes were progressing effortlessly. "I don't understand it" -- he said to his Indian friend who had sponsored him there. "How can they continue when I cannot?" His friend replied "It is because you have the typical Western habit of seeing everything as a test. You see the mountain as an enemy and therefore you must defeat it by climbing it. So -- the mountain fights back and it is naturally stronger than you. We do not see the mountain as our enemy. The purpose of our climb is not to reach the top but to become one with the mountain and so it lifts us up."

It is a paradigm shift.

Unconditional Love

Many ordinary people learn the parameters of unconditional love just by becoming parents. This kind of love can also be achieved in a romantic relationship.   The point comes to know that no matter what happens no one can come between the two in a manner where one is 'replaced'.  Each one holds a unique position with the other -- therefore there is no need for jealousy, no real need for pledges of monogamy (commitment yes -- but this comes naturally in a mutual fashion and cannot be --indeed -- should not be prompted, expected, or the goal of the relationship) -- but more important -- love for each is unique -- To love someone unconditionally is true freedom.

The notion of loving someone enough to sacrifice one's own life for them is quite common.  Why can't unconditional love that can forgive all transgressions be achieved.  If we can love so much to be willing to die then why not love so much to allow to let live?

The End Game

It's always interesting to me that people tend to characterize the end of a relationship as a failed relationship and consider the last (x number of years) as wasted time or all just a 'lie' that didn't mean anything in a supposed attempt to get over it.  In reality this is self deprecating talk because it is saying about us -- even though the other person is the 'bad' guy the other person was really justified in dumping us because we are too pathetic to be able to discern fantasy from reality and lack the basic self esteem to take control of the situation and dump the other person first.

My question is -- why is it wasted time? I'm sure there was a point in the relationship when things got so bad that one or both really needed to make a move to get out of it -- and probably some of that time was wasted -- but, was all the joy at the beginning wasted time? Just because two people have gone as far as they can with a relationship and one has decided that moving forward is not possible does that make the initial attraction and affection just a lie?

Sometimes the one that knows the relationship has to come to an end doesn't want to make a move -- so they do things to precipitate a breakup by the other person to avoid being the 'bad guy' -- and then unfortunate things happen up to the point of cheating and affairs.

This is all painful stuff I know -- but -- wouldn't it be better to focus on the positive things -- like (x years) were really good -- and this other person chose me -- from everyone else available -- to spend this time with ? And -- I now know a lot more about relationships and giving and receiving love and I'll be ready to share myself again someday and THAT person is going to be really lucky to have me because of who I am and the things I've been through in my life.

I think women tend to take breakups harder than men because of a misplaced value that still exists in our society on female virginity -- and that is really, really, sad.

I may want to look for a one-owner car if I'm buying a used vehicle -- but if I'm picking a life mate I want one that is at least as reasonably mature (and that means in life experience) as am I (I don't want to raise one -- I have children to raise) and knowing her way around in the bedroom would be a bonus as well.

There is no reason to consider any relationship wasted time -- every one is a gift -- because you did have good times together and you now have the benefits and wisdom of that relationship to grow with and move on to the relationship that will be 'right' for you.

Bear in mind though -- every relationship comes to an end in some way or another.

An essay from my site http://www.geocities.com/nighthawke700/love.htm written about 10 years ago, reposted here for someone who asked me about soulmates and my response to Icebox's thread.
nakdthoughts
Member Laureate
since 10-29-2000
Posts 19275
Between the Lines


1 posted 02-06-2006 05:47 PM       View Profile for nakdthoughts   Email nakdthoughts   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nakdthoughts

A very sincere and interesting viewpoint..one I agree with...but it takes patience in a breakup as well as in  a relationship and if people could realize that..they may not end  a marriage or long term relationship with hate and anger...

I have lots of regrets..but there is no turning back...even if I wanted to.

M
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


2 posted 02-08-2006 08:13 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Thanks Rene,

It has been a long time since I read this myself -- it wasn't reallllly written as an essay originally but as a letter to someone -- and I cringe at some grammatical/mechanical things that I would change were it actually an essay.  But, it's always interesting to go back and read yourself after a long interval.

I still agree with most of what I meant here -- I just wish I'd said it all better.

I spose with 2/14 coming up tis an appropriate topic though.  And, this is the 'Passions' web site eh?
nakdthoughts
Member Laureate
since 10-29-2000
Posts 19275
Between the Lines


3 posted 02-09-2006 07:01 AM       View Profile for nakdthoughts   Email nakdthoughts   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nakdthoughts

and so I will post this here...

Yes,  I am having trouble coming up with a meaningful Valentine's Day poem...but know the true meaning of love.

I had it for years... am not searching for it anymore. Not sure you can find it again or have it find you and not compare it to the first.

Words And Feelings

I remember that first meeting,
anxious but sure of who I was.
Wondering with the many whys
of what I was doing...safety
being the most important.
~~~~

I pride myself in being strong,
in manner, and belief and will.
So I sat there writing, while I waited
wrapped up in the quiet, still.

Many years, in light and dark,
I've countered words, I've schooled the day
believing in the fate of tempting
side lined living, in the way

Of feelings from a broken past
when whispers filled my empty arms,
when morning brought a part of you
unknown to one, but lost in charms

That would succeed in breaking through,
despite the lack of sharing time.
Surprising what can come to life
from words on blue, and thoughts that rhyme.

Another year, with friends and more
to color days, once black and white.
You are the you, though nameless here
my valentines that share the light/night.

~~~~~
With words and feelings,
and warmth and hope,
allowing expressions to be shared,
this Valentine's day...
I wish all to feel loved
knowing that we all "belong" here.

This was for "Passions"

Thank you,
M
latearrival
Member Elite
since 03-21-2003
Posts 4407
Florida


4 posted 02-11-2006 11:40 PM       View Profile for latearrival   Email latearrival   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for latearrival

Local Rebel. Very good insight. I agree with all you wrote. In my younger years I wondered why people were jealous of others and of their mates. I thought maybe something was wrong with me because I had never experienced jealousy. I think  that love is based upon respect for the other. I always had full respect for my husband because he had such a  good over all sense of ethics,  was fair minded, had  good work ethics, the things I felt were necessary for me to be able to love a man.  He did show jealously where I was concerned but never had need to.  So over the years I had to understand his insecurity as the reason he sometimes displayed this feeling. As we grew in our relationship he was able to change and  give me more freedom to have friends and do more with my life. In the beginning years he seemed to be jealous of my friends too.  He was only 21 when we married but he matured and we had 47 years together before he was called. Enjoyed your words. martyjo
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


5 posted 02-12-2006 12:12 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


Love is simply when someone else's life
means more than your own because without
that life your's is not much worth living,
(except perhaps as just really marking time).

icebox
Member Elite
since 05-03-2003
Posts 4246
in the shadows


6 posted 02-12-2006 03:25 AM       View Profile for icebox   Email icebox   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for icebox


"The secret waits for the insight
Of eyes unclouded by longing;
Those who are bound by desire
See only the outward container."

(Tao te Ching, ver I, par. 2)

How can you define love from within a society that measures success in relationships by using death as the standard unit of measurement:  a relationship has failed if it ends before either or both participants die.

The feelings most people claim as love really can be produced with the alkaloids available in chocolate.  

To tie possession, loyalty, jealousy, sex or control to love and expect it to work is like using an anvil as the tail of a kite and being surprised that the kite won’t fly.

It maybe true that a person can not love another nor be loved by another to any degree greater than the individual’s love of self, but so what?  Most think love is the heat from a fire they can not understand and that will destroy them if they get too close or if they can not control it; yet most are emotionally drawn to that same fire.

We are born into human life in shock.  We are soul fragments cast out from the source of all understanding, all interconnectedness and acceptance.  Most will spend countless lifetimes never taking the time or spending the energy to re-learn, to remember, the ability to merge thoughts, feelings and understandings with another, and yet will live each life with that yearning unfulfilled.

Any interaction that hints at being a reflection or substitute for that type of union is seen as positive, is called love and is set up as a valued goal for repetition.  Western society seems especially prone to fantastic flights of mythology where everything becomes embroidered with ribbons of wonderful romantic crap and when enough nonsense has been woven into it we call it love.

We train our children to crave love and often twist them into thinking love is linked to some collection of physical or psychological abuse.  It is one of the mainstays of our entertainment industry.  As you point out, we build retail holidays around these myths. They make most of the centering points of our society.  We reinforce it with threats of recognized failure: “what if my gift (or my self) is not enough?”

Maybe we should stop worrying about love and learn instead kindness, respect and common sense.

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


7 posted 02-12-2006 04:50 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Okay...I find this weird. Normally I agree with ya Reb, but I am confused with the beginning here. Not necessarily disagreeing, but I think there are subtleties. (Women like subtleties.) But nod, I applaud your ambition to explain "love".


"I can begin to explain love first by addressing jealousy."

See? You lost me right there. Why wouldn't you address attraction, lust, psychological imprinting of idealized relationships first?

Lawd knows, I ain't a pro, but it seems to me you just jumped right into "jealousy", which to me, implies some territorial assumption that would be preceded by mating rituals. At the very least, some pheromonal sniffing should be mentioned. ?

"Jealousy could be accurately described as insecurity."

uh huh, I nodded here.

"But, for our purpose here lets call it anger."

Actually, I would argue that jealously unaddressed kinda steamrolls into anger.

"It is anger based in fear (as is all anger)."

I don't entirely disagree, I just think there is more emotional relay going on here, with pain having dominance. Fear, I think, would be the messenger of pain. If we would would personify the emotions, think of it this way, "pain" says "uh oh"--sounds an alarm--"fear", would dial the emotional cellphone on speeddial to anger, which would emerge costumed as jealousy.

All anger is about control. (We're angry at the copy machine, for instance, because we have no control over its' behavior.) We want something to be different than it is. Why? Because for some reason we are afraid of things not being the way we want them to be.

(Agreed. And I don't think our thoughts part ways at all, I just find there are finer points inbetween.)

That fundamental desire for control, and for self being in control, is at the very root of our Western Culture's idea of romantic love. We find it every where in our literature, movies, love songs (i.e. baby I need your lovin, got to have all your lovin -- I can't live if livin is without you -- etc. etc. etc.) Those songs, ironically though, are not about the object of our passion -- but rather about us!

(I'm still nodding here, and yet? I don't want someone, anyone to love me out of obligation or because I said so--I want them to want to be with me, simply because they would rather not be anywhere else--no control issue for me there--go, already, if yer bored!)

This is where the dichotomy exists. If "I" am the most important part of my love relationship and I think only of ME then the relationship is obviously doomed.

(NOD)

And, yet, if I become so co-dependent upon the other that I completely lose my identity then the relationship is equally failed. Under closer scrutiny though -- when that happens the relationship is still about "I". It's masked in that I seem to be so lost in the other that I don't exist.

(This is where "love" or, lust, if you prefer, becomes an addiction. Drugs are used for the same purpose, to escape the imprisonment of ourselves.)

Whereas in reality what happened is I made MY possession of the other the most important thing in the relationship, and thus, even though self has been lost "I" is still selfishly seeking control.

If our egos are fed by someone and they make us feel strong and smart and sexy, and we appreciate them because they do whatever we ask, and they allow us to do whatever we want -- that is not loving them. It does not recognize the uniqueness or worth of the other person. Only their value to us -- because of how they make us feel. We could substitute anyone else who was willing and achieve the same result. Loving someone because they have similarities to us or because they become extensions of our ego is -- once again -- a round about way of loving ourselves. And, we would find ourselves very lonely in the end.


(So you found out the hard way too, eh?)

So then -- what is the proper model? My opinion is that "true" love of another is a state of being rather than an act of doing and is not predicated upon the actions of self or the other. It can never be lost. Even if the other's actions become so intolerable that we can no longer be with them it is never lost. This being true -- if we truly love ourselves -- and are truly "In-Love" with someone else we have no choice but to "set them free" --or rather -- recognize they are already 'free' totally separate individuals from ourselves.

(I have experienced this both ways. I have loved, and have been loved back, to the extent that the relationship would end when it interfered with personal growth. In other words, we want the best for each other, even to the painful conclusion that what is best for one another might not include each other.)

You can't give to someone else what you haven't achieved in yourself. It isn't them we have to give freedom to -- first it is ourselves.

Truth and Potential
The human animal has the peculiar ability, unlike the other animals, to recognize the difference between how we are -- in truth -- and how we can be potentially.


I am insecure, so I am not sure if this applies to me.

This knowledge is the state of being the Hebrews called "sin". All actions, desires, passions, frustrations, are attempts to make up the difference or outgrowths of our failing to do so. The Western culture has perverted the concept of sin into the actions and desires instead of a state of being. The unconditional love of "Christ Power" brought redemption because it balanced the difference, giving the recognition that one will always be somewhere short of potential and allows flexibility and peace in the balance between the two.

(I have a different understanding of Rabbi Jesus. I think the way I address him is sufficient explanation.)

In love we recognize not only our own truth and potential -- but the truth and potential of the other. We must balance our desires and actions against the desires and actions of the other, not attempting to superimpose our requirements upon them, recognizing their freedom to pursue dreams and act for themselves -- and regardless of the outcome we stand as a shelter for them to return to and accept them for their truth and not their potential. In doing so we find balance in our love.

Agreed. It is the only way that growth is possible and love, in stagnate, becomes the dreaded opposite--and no, that would not be "hatred", but apathy.

An American tourist found himself in a village in India at the time of the pilgrimage to the top of a sacred mountain. He decided to join them in the experience and had no doubt that he could make it to the top since he was in perfect physical condition. Yet on the journey, after only twenty minutes he was out of breath and could hardly climb another step. He noticed women carrying babies and old men with canes were progressing effortlessly. "I don't understand it" -- he said to his Indian friend who had sponsored him there. "How can they continue when I cannot?" His friend replied "It is because you have the typical Western habit of seeing everything as a test. You see the mountain as an enemy and therefore you must defeat it by climbing it. So -- the mountain fights back and it is naturally stronger than you. We do not see the mountain as our enemy. The purpose of our climb is not to reach the top but to become one with the mountain and so it lifts us up."

It is a paradigm shift.


(oh boy am I working on that...)

Unconditional Love

Many ordinary people learn the parameters of unconditional love just by becoming parents. This kind of love can also be achieved in a romantic relationship.   The point comes to know that no matter what happens no one can come between the two in a manner where one is 'replaced'.  Each one holds a unique position with the other -- therefore there is no need for jealousy, no real need for pledges of monogamy (commitment yes -- but this comes naturally in a mutual fashion and cannot be --indeed -- should not be prompted, expected, or the goal of the relationship) -- but more important -- love for each is unique -- To love someone unconditionally is true freedom.

The notion of loving someone enough to sacrifice one's own life for them is quite common.  Why can't unconditional love that can forgive all transgressions be achieved.  If we can love so much to be willing to die then why not love so much to allow to let live?


(In my particular case, I still need to be rewarded with treats. )  

The End Game

It's always interesting to me that people tend to characterize the end of a relationship as a failed relationship and consider the last (x number of years) as wasted time or all just a 'lie' that didn't mean anything in a supposed attempt to get over it.  In reality this is self deprecating talk because it is saying about us -- even though the other person is the 'bad' guy the other person was really justified in dumping us because we are too pathetic to be able to discern fantasy from reality and lack the basic self esteem to take control of the situation and dump the other person first.

My question is -- why is it wasted time? I'm sure there was a point in the relationship when things got so bad that one or both really needed to make a move to get out of it -- and probably some of that time was wasted -- but, was all the joy at the beginning wasted time? Just because two people have gone as far as they can with a relationship and one has decided that moving forward is not possible does that make the initial attraction and affection just a lie?



Agreed again. It's like, um, taking a class. Even if you never receive the degree, the knowledge is never lost. Some of my best relationships are with former lovers.

Hmmmm.

I'm beginning to think that I have had more former lovers than even I suspected.



All normal--some people can't move on without an impetus--for example, a classic non-sexual break up is adolescence. To avoid the guilt of the inevitable break with parents, conflict is created when there may actually be none at all. Some people need a conflict. It's kind of like a starting block in running. Shrug.

This is all painful stuff I know -- but -- wouldn't it be better to focus on the positive things -- like (x years) were really good -- and this other person chose me -- from everyone else available -- to spend this time with ? And -- I now know a lot more about relationships and giving and receiving love and I'll be ready to share myself again someday and THAT person is going to be really lucky to have me because of who I am and the things I've been through in my life.

I think women tend to take breakups harder than men because of a misplaced value that still exists in our society on female virginity -- and that is really, really, sad.



? I have never "met" a man who was disappointed that I was not a virgin.

I may want to look for a one-owner car if I'm buying a used vehicle -- but if I'm picking a life mate I want one that is at least as reasonably mature (and that means in life experience) as am I (I don't want to raise one -- I have children to raise) and knowing her way around in the bedroom would be a bonus as well.

There is no reason to consider any relationship wasted time -- every one is a gift -- because you did have good times together and you now have the benefits and wisdom of that relationship to grow with and move on to the relationship that will be 'right' for you.

Bear in mind though -- every relationship comes to an end in some way or another.


Your last sentence just summed up my life lesson from the past five years. We DO go on.

We choose whether to go on happily, or otherwise.

An essay from my site http://www.geocities.com/nighthawke700/love.htm written about 10 years ago, reposted here for someone who asked me about soulmates and my response to Icebox's thread.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


8 posted 02-12-2006 11:44 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I started at jealousy because it's what happens AFTER attraction Blazey.

Attraction, sex, birth -- ah, yes -- miracles that occur billions and billions of times.

After, that's when 'love' starts -- or doesn't.  
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


9 posted 02-12-2006 07:34 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

When I discuss 'Christ Power' or Christpower -- I'm probably discussing your same interpretation Blazey -- Christpower and Rabbi Jesus are not the same thing;

CHRISTPOWER

Look at him!
Look not at his divinity,
but look, rather, at his freedom.
Look not at the exagerrated tales of his power,
but look, rather, at his infinite capacity to give himself away.
Look not at the first-century mythology that surrounds him,
but look, rather, at his courage to be,
his ability to live the contagious quality of his love.
Stop your frantic search!
Be still and know that this is God:
this love,
this freedom,
this life,
this being;
and
When you are accepted,
accept yourself;
When you are forgiven,
forgive yourself;
When you are loved,
love yourself.
Grasp that Christpower
and
dare to be yourself!

JOHN SHELBY SPONG
1973

Read 'This Hebrew Lord' by Spong.. free online... http://www.religion-online.org/showbook.asp?title=550

particularly chapter 11 http://www.religion-online.org/showchapter.asp?title=550&C=675

quote:

The deepest law in the whole creation is that human life is made to be free; our destiny, our purpose is to be what we are meant to be. But the life we know is blocked, thwarted, shackled, insecure. We create structure rituals, superstitions, conventional wisdom to protect our lives. We sacrifice freedom for order and security. We fail to realize that the things that ultimately limit our being are always internal, never external. One who is free is frightening, for he forces us to stop hiding and to look deeply into ourselves. The presence of freedom makes some people so angry at their own lack of freedom that their hatred will destroy their vision, and they will attempt to crucify the bringer of freedom. Others will rid themselves of the threat by falling back in adoration before the bringer of freedom, believing that he is divine and therefore beyond the grasp of an ordinary mortal. Since they themselves are not divine this becomes their excuse not to fly, their justification for refusing to dream.

Only those who are touched by freedom -- those who, through its power, are turned on to all that life is -- only they will know that freedom, limitless humanity, is but the fullness of life. A free man thus reveals the secret of life, his being reflects the ground of being. In such a person life and death, time and space, humanity and divinity -- all are seen as man-made limits that box people in, distort their vision, and enslave their being.



LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


10 posted 03-08-2006 07:01 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

I was attracted to this, due to the topic and after quickly browsing through this thread wanted to say three things.

1.  Reb, thanks for the perspective and pondering, as I'd like to go back when I have more time and read thoroughly.

2.  You made me think of an old boyfriend...as he and I had the same conversation once...he was stunned when I said several of my relationships were a waste of time...and I say that b/c

3.  If I had known then, what I know now, I wouldn't have entered into those relationships...why?  B/c they were 25 years worth of abuse.  Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong...but living with an abusive spouse...simply b/c your afraid of leaving...for many reasons, is indeed not only a danger but, a waste of time...unless the abusive spouse, realizes they have a problem and seeks counseling.

I don't believe a lot of us come to understand ourselves, until we're older...and realize, love is allowance...meaning...allowing the other the freedom to excel...to pursue their dreams...regarding career, hobbies, etc.  

Love is not stagnating another so that you smother them and completely take away their dreams, identity...but much more so...a willingness to realize the wonders of self...then to complement the other with those tools...by being mature...realistic and confident in oneself...you cannot be co-dependent on another for your happiness...one must realize what their individual needs and desires are, and choose a mate who is basically on the same page.  

Without compatibility, both mentally and physically, it might be very difficult to live out your lives together?  Although, I do know couples who are complete opposites and function very well together, as they are mature and understand the ability to allow one to fly.

One thing I have learned is one should never have to compromise their identity, to appease their mates controlling fears and self absorption.  

Please feel free to challenge my thoughts...as I'd certainly like to absorb more perspectives on this subject.

I also would like to add, that I agree with most of what you've offered here Reb...and truly find your honesty with self, refreshing...regarding not wanting to raise someone else.  I've oft times said, I will never be another mother to a man...more so and hopefully a true companion who is mature and somewhat compatible in thoughts and beliefs.

I do have regrets...as I chose men who were mentally not capable of being companions...they were very insecure, immature, and unsure of who they were, growing up in a dysfunctional environment as children, being abused themselves....mostly, I feel badly for them...but also for myself...looking back, I so wanted the relationships to work...I really thought that love changed people...helped them want to change...and really believed that I could help them realize the damage they were doing to themselves, me and the relationship.  

You see, I saw the good in them...which at the time, over rode the abuse, and wanted to believe that they would eventually respect themselves, and in turn respect me.  But it doesn't happen that way...and Reb...I truly believe society has not done enough to educate our children on this subject.  

I now today, see things in a different light, and Reb, most of what you articulated here, I have articulated in my poetry.  My poetry has been years of therapy, figuring things out.. .adding, I sorely wish I was where you were at on this subject 10 years ago and so happy you did repost, b/c I believe this is filled with encouraging information about what love really is…or should be.

Very good topic to ponder Reb...wishing you would really think about putting a book out on this subject to help change society's conditioning on love.

I really really wish, people would inject these points into the class room, as I believe it would help mature society to a higher level...and open a door to the importance of self examination.  From that point, the awareness of how our decissions so effect the lives of others might then surface in one's evaluation, leading them to another entire spectrum of a much more productive relationships, not just with spouse, but with society.  

Very mature and realistic.  

Thank you
Lee J.


[This message has been edited by LeeJ (03-08-2006 08:31 AM).]

Juju
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since 12-29-2003
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In your dreams


11 posted 03-08-2006 11:24 AM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Reb, IO always enjoy to read your stuff.  This is something I needed to hear I believe as well.  It seems that everyone around me is very wiered and sometimes when I here poeple like you write about life like that, it reminds me where I should be and who I should be.  My friends always bad talked this one guy I was kinda dating after we stopped seeing.  I never understood why.  He was and always will be one of the nicest guys I have ever met.  The only problem was me.  I had some bad stuff happen to me long ago and I needed to learn to love me first.  Yes he is gone and we might not even see each opther again, but... it was not a waste of time being with him, but in fact I had alot of fun.  The ionly thing I would of changed was maybe being more honest with him, about who I was.  I tend to find now that alot of my girlfriends when they see something they want  from another relationship they usually try to take it away.  I worry about them sometimes...

-<>-~-<>-~-<>-  
*    Juju     *
-<>-~-<>-~-<>-

Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


12 posted 03-11-2006 03:17 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Hi Lee;

Science is an iterative process.  We try different ways to solve a problem or answer a question.  It's like looking for car keys.  When you look in 500 places and don't find them and then find them in the 501st place it's not to say that the first 500 places were wasted attempts.  After all, you didn't know where they were.  Each iteration plays a part.  

However, if I've looked on the peg where they are supposed to be -- and keep looking on the peg where they are supposed to be, and keep looking on the peg where they are supposed to be, and keep looking on the peg where they are supposed to be -- that's wasted time.

I understand your particular circumstance and empathize.  

Here's what I said though --

quote:

My question is -- why is it wasted time? I'm sure there was a point in the relationship when things got so bad that one or both really needed to make a move to get out of it -- and probably some of that time was wasted -- but, was all the joy at the beginning wasted time? Just because two people have gone as far as they can with a relationship and one has decided that moving forward is not possible does that make the initial attraction and affection just a lie?



Hopefully proper reflection lets the past in the rear-view mirror stay there and not come creeping up to rear-end us.  But, the point is to move forward --- and it sounds like you have!   Good for you.
Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
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13 posted 03-11-2006 03:22 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Juju,

Sometimes you just have to eat macaroni until you learn to make Cashew Chicken!

you have many experiences ahead of you -- when you get hungry it's time to eat -- every meal is important.  Eat healthy!
LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


14 posted 03-13-2006 09:08 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Hi Reb, thanks for your continued exploration...

Yes, I still consider those years wasted time for many reasons...remember, people usually come to conclusions for not one reason, but many....

For lack of better words...I was an abused child...therefore, carried out the prototype in choosing relationships, gravitated towards self imposed, ill confident people who were also abused, therefore, they were violent, angry and feared any acceleration I sought to pursue....due to their low self esteem …yes, to answer your question, in the beginning the relationships were good...until the first physical attack.  

I chose to stay…for many personal reasons, of which I will not get into now…but the fact of the matter is, my growth was declined due to insufficient conditioning and candidly, not knowing any better.  My interaction with people festered, not to mention any quest for further edification in both life experiences and scholastic endeavors & for grasping any further significant progress in mature development.

You become lost in an abyss of intimidation and in the grasp of isolation of power and control.  Many people who are abused do not see themselves as victims. Also, abusers do not see themselves as being abusive. People often think of domestic violence as physical violence, such as hitting. However, domestic violence takes other forms, such as psychological & emotional.  

My regret is Reb, the wasted time in growth…I feel very bad for those who were abusive, but the fact of the matter is, it was my fault for staying…mostly, feeling sorry for them, thinking I could help them and in turn help myself.  I couldn’t…and due to all those years of a cycle of violence…well, simply, it was indeed wasted time.  I regret that there wasn’t sufficient counseling at that time.  I regret not knowing what I know now, for not breaking the silence of the abuse…for subjecting myself to emotional and verbal abuse…for the mind games of manipulation, for the decreased productivity and most of all, regret the lack of education on this matter in our society today.  

Wasted time…oh yes indeed…not to mention…a breakdown of faith, an installation of unnecessary fears, trauma, flashbacks, nightmares & vulnerability to repeating the cycle without sufficient counseling.  

It’s been a much needed long haul of self examination and evaluation on my part…but Reb…I say this in all sincerity, most candidly and void of any anger…I have forgiven, but won’t forget…and I wish more then anything in the world, I would have known then, what I know now.  A lot of wasted years in personal growth, confidence, and erosion of self esteem....yes, Reb, a lot of wasted years….

The good news is, I’ve broken the cycle and can spot those behavior patterns in a heartbeat, and will never subject myself to such a self mutilation ever again.

Reb, in all those wasted years, there was not love nor could there be any developement in the assets that love attributes, a complement to another soul...for both parties involved.  

Those good times in the beginning seem so far removed in such a small span of time, and cannot ever be compared to all those hours of sadness, tears and an almost lost life.

There have been exceptional times in my life, exceptionally good people, progress, interactions with life and nature, not to mention, a horde of blessing I possess…but, interactions in relationships that are unhealthy are dangerous, degrading and most of all, an abyss of wasted time.  

I'm sorry for the pain, for the person(s) that instilled the abuse...for the whole entity of that time...and I forgive them, but cannot allow myself to forget.  

I regret that those people deemed it necessary to break down, faith, trust, and self respect, for them and myself.  I regret those years of not being able to be who I was, fearing articulating who I was, without subjection to public humiliation, just because being right was more important then allowing me to explore any personal attributes I had to offer.    

I hope I have answered your question….and if I haven’t perhaps someone else can jump in and help make it clearer to you...

I suppose in all sincereity, you'd have to experience it, to understand?

My best...
Lee J.
Stephanos
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since 07-31-2000
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Statesboro, GA, USA


15 posted 03-13-2006 01:04 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

I think you can make wrong decisions, and even regret those decisions, without denying that some good was gained along the way.  Others may give a different explanation, but that's the nature of God.  Goodness, and good will is never withheld, even in the midst of wrong or immoral decisions, much less in merely uninformed or foolish decisions.  Rain falls on the just and unjust, on the foolish and the wise.  But to have a little black book full of emotional baggage, and a trail of children falling through the cracks, though not irredeemable, is certainly not a desirable path.  And only those who judge themselves, as pertaining their past mistakes, can really make better decisions in the future.  


Stephen.
Ron
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Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
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Michigan, US


16 posted 03-13-2006 03:25 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

If your only goal is to master algebra, learning to add and subtract may seem intolerably painful. Refusing to see it as a necessary step, however, doesn't make it any less a prerequisite or any more a waste of time. When all is said and done, falling down always precedes walking, even when the real goal, all along, was to run with the wind.


Christopher
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since 08-02-99
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Purgatorial Incarceration


17 posted 03-13-2006 04:37 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

yeah, Ron, but as Reb points out, most people aren't running with the wind, but rather trying to run into it.
Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


18 posted 03-13-2006 06:02 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Has anyone else noticed that power and dominance and, yes, jealousy are given short shrift here?

Without these things, there is no passion.

Without these things, there is no empowerment of the object.

Uh, okay, that's too academic. Let's put it this way, sometimes it feels good to have your partner be jealous.

Stephanos
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19 posted 03-13-2006 09:44 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Brad,

I think a better way of putting it, is that "jeaolousy" as commonly experienced is a perversion, or too much of a good thing.  There is a good jealousy, and then there is a jealousy which amounts to mistrust.  Maybe it has to do with the motives behind the emotion.  But I know that one is completely compatible with confidence and trust, and the other is not.  


Dominance?  Same answer.


Stephen.
Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


20 posted 03-13-2006 10:31 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Is there a better word or term for what we're talking about then?

I'm pretty sure we're on the same wavelength here. The simple fact is that a good or healthy jealousy (a kind of concern perhaps?) isn't just good for the individual, it's good for the relationship.

Anybody remember the horrible movie "Indecent Proposal"?
Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


21 posted 03-13-2006 11:03 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

I, I´m so in love with you
Whatever you want to do
Is all right with me
´Cause you make me feel so brand new
And I want to spend my life with you

Since, since we´ve been together
Loving you forever
Is what I need
Let me be the one you come running to
I´ll never be untrue

Let´s, let´s stay together
Lovin´ you whether, whether
Times are good or bad, happy or sad

Whether times are good or bad, happy or sad

Why, why some people break up
Then turn around and make up
I just can´t see
You´d never do that to me (would you, baby)
Staying around you is all I see
(Here´s what I want us to do)

Let´s, we oughta stay together
Loving you whether, whether
Times are good or bad, happy or sad

Let´s, we oughta stay together
Loving you whether, whether
Times are good or bad, happy or sad

Al Green



There's a reason why the Reverend's song resonates with people.  It is a great synopsis of the feeling we experience when falling 'in-love'.  

Jealousy and the opportunities for 'loss' or never having at all are paramount in the process.  Part of the reason is that we don't ever fall 'in-love' with a real person but with a highly romanticized fantasy of a person.

Absence makes the heart grow fonder -- (and how can I miss you if you don't go away?)

Without getting into the role of PEA, Adrenaline, Oxytocin, Dopamine, and Norepinephrine -- it would be good to consider what role availability/unavailability (being or playing hard to get),and hope of getting play in the process.

In the early, infatuation phase these brain chemicals are paramount -- we are literally addicted to love -- after they fade either due to lack of production or a development of tolerance -- 6 months to 4 years or so out -- then we settle into more sedating endorphins (and oxytocin) that form attachment -- shared experiences -- we want to go where everyone knows our name kind of thing -- separation anxiety is produced by a deficiency of these important brain chemicals.

So, then, the question is -- why do you want to dominate?  
LeeJ
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since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


22 posted 03-14-2006 09:09 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Stephanos....
I think a better way of putting it, is that "jeaolousy" as commonly experienced is a perversion, or too much of a good thing.  There is a good jealousy, and then there is a jealousy which amounts to mistrust.  Maybe it has to do with the motives behind the emotion.  But I know that one is completely compatible with confidence and trust, and the other is not

I agree, a very good example of this was hearing a woman once say, while trying to help her hubby understand..."I'm not jealous of the women you confide in as friends...I'm jealous that you choose them over me to confide in".  

dominance...I would hate someone to dominate me...but in the same, would enjoy someone's feedback, who could allow me to conclude.  To me, dominance is a strong word...wouldn't want to dominate or be dominated?


Reb
In the early, infatuation phase these brain chemicals are paramount -- we are literally addicted to love -- after they fade either due to lack of production or a development of tolerance -- 6 months to 4 years or so out -- then we settle into more sedating endorphins (and oxytocin) that form attachment -- shared experiences -- we want to go where everyone knows our name kind of thing -- separation anxiety is produced by a deficiency of these important brain chemicals.

I've reseached this..and yes, agree...but there are people, including myself...who suffer no separation anxiety, nor do they need to be where everyone knows their/my name?  I cannot speak for anyone else...

correct me if I'm wrong, but we do need every emotion within a relationship within moderation...

to me and for me, a big part of love is allowance...

it is not co dependance on someone else for happiness...it is knowing individual needs, maturity, respect...and finding someone who thinks and feels as each of us do...someone who is somewhat compatible to our own likes, desires, inspirations...although diversity is also a factor...even though most people believe love is being one with someone else...and it is...we always must remember that we are individuals as well, and need that individuality, otherwise, it would compromise our identities...however...I surely hope, I'm running along side with the wind now....

Love is sacrifice, work and a lot of responsiblity...it is a merge of two sharing everything, courage to know oneself and love the company you keep in yourself...it is sharing space, time, money, likes, dislikes, hobbies...creating a life together...allowing each other their own individual quiet times....knowing their needs...goals that each one of you move towards...both individually and together...making time for the other, even when your most tired...encouragement and best intentions without expectations, the ability to interact, knowing how to negotiate fairly, identifying the other person's needs for acceptance & security...sharing thoughts and painting your room a different color sometime, seeing life willingly through another person's eyes...allowing faults and mistakes, helping the other come to light without condescending...not allowing others to make decissions for you, sharing not only accomplishments, but tears together as well...listening when it's hard to listen...talking with an inside voice   constructive actions...and both working together to accomplish.  Yup...a relationship/love with anyone...is a work in progress...and can be the most gratifing experience you'll ever know in a lifetime, love is also realizing that sometimes the best gift you can give someone, is to allow them their dignity and let them go...excel...which will bring forth hords of growth to both you and them.  

Love respects oneself enough, that no matter how bad the marriage/relationship is, love realizes cheating only makes things worth, and brings another life to sorrow.  Love is in harmony with oneself...and would not cheat, lie, run up the charges without the other knowing...love does not harbor misdirected anger...love is a team player...who doesn't always need to win...love is not a game...and being right, isn't always the answer at the expense of someone else's hurt/heart.

Love is not expecting someone to bring you happiness...first happiness and contentment must reside in oneself, otherwise, the relationship is ruined...and hearts damaged....love is not, jumping from one relationship to another, time after time, after time...and love is not an excuse for sex. It is great awareness and a shamen's walk of learning, as well as teaching.

These are my thoughts

Great introspective topic...all of your comments are interesting, good solid advice, insight, and something offered to ponder.  Thank you for this...
BluesSerenade
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since 10-23-2001
Posts 9867
By the Seaside


23 posted 07-12-2008 09:18 PM       View Profile for BluesSerenade   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for BluesSerenade

  Frankly, I'm intimidated by this forum which is why I have never posted here.  But I spent a fair amout of time lurking around, and I always looked for you Reb, fascinated by your mind, and your approach on any given subject.  I don't know what goes on behind the scenes at pip but I have missed your intellect and your insight, and your "debatable" sense of humor... so I went looking for you on this hot and humid summer night.  I'm winging it as I type so bear with me here if you will.  This is such a great thread, one that needs to be read again.  You gave love a voice and it needs to be heard. Not just the falling in love, intial rush, hormonal sex crazed lustful kind of love, but a love that goes on and on inspite of what was and what is, the kind of love that is meant to be.  I am deeply moved by your post and felt a sense of well being after I read it.  These last five or six years have put me to the test, after battling cancer that came on the heels of divorce, I am a changed person, and love has a new meaning... suffice to say those rose colored classes weren't looking too good, and the grass aint greener anywhere...'cept for my front yard.  There really is such a thing as unconditional love and you helped to define it with this thread of yours, and for that I thank you.  There were some wonderful times to be had over the years, and shame on me to think I wasted them, when in fact they were probably the happiest years of my life.  People change and they grow, while shaping their own lives as well as the lives of others, I suspect we all contribute to that concept in some way or another.  But in the end I think we come full circle which doesn't mean we get back to where we once belonged, but we have a deeper understanding of who we are and why things happen the way they do, and when all else fails we learn to accept the things we cannot change, and so it goes.

  You're a class act Reb and I miss seeing your name here.  
serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


24 posted 07-12-2008 10:39 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

He's "hot" too.

smile
 
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