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Passions in Poetry

soulmates

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iliana
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25 posted 02-08-2006 07:01 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Oh, and I don't think the dictionaries have the definition right, either...lol.
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26 posted 02-08-2006 07:51 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

Interestingly enough, while this is a pretty piece of prose, the entire statement is nothing shy of foolish romanticism better suited to a Harlequin novel rather than a statement on life/love.

One of the most depressingly common mistakes made by people searching for or "in" love is the need for someone to "complete them," or someone to "make them feel good/great/incredible/etc.," or even someone whom they "couldn't live without." In fact, anyone searching for a type of love that consists of these ideals is only defining who they are by who they're with - another word for that? d e p e n d a n c y.

How can you be happy being with someone else, if you aren't happing being with just yourself?

Love? Soulmates?

A soulmate (if the overused generic descriptive of some utopian inter-personal relationship can suffice for anything so infinitely complex) would be someone who doesn't complete, but instead complements. It wouldn't be someone you couldn't live without, but rather someone you enjoy being with. It wouldn't be someone who made you feel good, it would be someone you could feel good with.

Have you ever read the novella by Stephen R. Donaldson called "The Killing Stroke?" An apt analogy follows from there that no one can destroy your sense of self; that is a choice only you can make. Your choices cannot be taken away from you any more than your sense of self can be. You define who you are, no one else. If you're asking someone else to, and that's what's called being "in love," count me out!
Ron
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27 posted 02-08-2006 08:49 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Indulging lust (perceived as love) is a joyful pastime driven by yearning for contact with preferred compatible body types. If well managed, there is little down side. The joy, with or without orgasmic release, lasts until access ends, the tastes change, needs evolve or until a more compatible, or more preferred, body type is encountered.

I believe that's called hedonism. At best, it's communal masturbation and, at worst, it's using people. The "down side" is that other people aren't meant to be "well managed," a clever euphemism for used. Humans, I think, are hard-wired to want more than a purely physical relationship, and at least one person (and usually both) end up getting hurt when they pretend otherwise.

quote:
Soul contact, on the other hand, is not limited to linear time or the limitations of the physical and once achieved, it endures. For the participants the result is an incremental evolution of the soul, and in smaller part a contribution to evolution of the collective human spirit.

A relationship that requires no work, no sacrifice, no compromise, is just a fantasy. While it's probably normal to want to find something of value that doesn't ever have to be earned, I honestly don't think it's very realistic. Soul mates, in my opinion, aren't discovered, but are created. Day after day after day.

I'd like to think we can find something that lies between selfish hedonism and equally selfish fantasy?


iliana
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28 posted 02-08-2006 09:25 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

While both Christopher and Ron make valid points about "love," I thought the discussion here was "soul mates."  To me, that is all about love, but not necessarily a "romantic" thing.  Although, the "attraction" often teaches us through that vehicle.  

You are both speaking toward the dictionary definition; but I do not agree with the definition and I suspect I'm not the only one.  

For me, a soulmate is the ultimate catalyst in teaching a soul about infinte love/universal love.  Sometimes, and I would venture a guess here, most times, it is an extremely painful growth process, and I think, involves loss almost always...the impetitus to force a soul to make a choice.  In other words, it is not the story of "Cinderella."  More like, "Romeo and Juilliet" or "The Thornbirds" if you want to err on the side of the soulmates having a physical relationship.

My interpretation of Sting's prose deals with that concept...and not a Harlequin Romance.

Just some ideas.  Who knows, maybe tomorrow my ideas will have changed.  


[This message has been edited by iliana (02-08-2006 10:19 PM).]

Stephanos
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29 posted 02-09-2006 01:19 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Ron,  

That was a great reply.  It has a lot of wisdom.  

(I know you don't think I ever agree with you.  lol.  So when I strongly do, I feel I need to tell you now and again ... friend)

Stephen.
iliana
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30 posted 02-09-2006 02:25 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Came back to add one more "soulmate" pair -- Anthony & Cleopatra.  

My point is that soulmates do not necessarily complete each other in the sense that two halves make a whole.  Rather, perhaps that feeling of two halves making a whole is so strong that it causes each of them to grow to the point where they have to make a choice about the direction of their lives -- whether to submerse their souls in each other or to grow toward their own identity as a unique reflection of the divine spark.  A soulmate, in my mind, could well be a sort of mirror image of self -- many times a person falls in love with their own reflection; but I believe it is equally an opportunity for that person to recognize their own flaws, and thus, the growth.

Love between two people can certainly be a teacher; I have no argument there whatsoever.  It's just that I do not believe being in love constitutes a situation of soulmates per se.  

Nor do I see a soulmate as a utopian situation -- I see it as an extremely strong, unexplainable connection between two people that leads to ultimate soul growth if the parties so chose to brave the ride -- it involves a recognition of each other that is generally unexplainable by normal standards.  Ultimately, I believe the experience either leads one to "loss of self" in physical/spiritual union, or to a deeper understanding of agape love (still loss or a spiritual death of self).  Perhaps, it might lead to a physical death, as well, if one is not able to accomplish either option.  

Obviously, I embrace the concept of reincarnation.  

Really got me thinking and I am enjoying reading this thread.      


[This message has been edited by iliana (02-09-2006 03:03 AM).]

littlewing
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31 posted 02-09-2006 09:36 AM       View Profile for littlewing   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for littlewing

Well, thats the whole idea though.

Within another, you find yourself, know yourself better, they should bring YOU out even if you don't even know you are in there.  

Actually, the both of you see better within your own selves.

There is nothing selfish or needy.  This is a naturally occurring instance and is rare.
Something like this is not tried for, worked at or hard to do , it just IS.

Unconditional acceptance of the spirit.

(Don't any of you have this?)

Within this bond, you find each other, within that you find yourself.

It is not fake, fairytale stuff either.

You think you know yourself well until you find this.

When you reach this, then you realize:

Where have I been?

See?

I will stand by this notion because I experience it every single day through my very best friend and my son.  

Both on completely different levels.

I think everyone is running away with this "love" factor.

That should be the last thing to play into this, along with the definitions of "soul mate" and "twin flame"

You need to have an understanding of self first, then an understanding of the other person.

From there, you should not have to even try.

It takes care of itself.


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32 posted 02-09-2006 09:48 AM       View Profile for Ratleader   Email Ratleader   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ratleader's Home Page   View IP for Ratleader

I do see, littlewing -- and that was the whole reason I said what I did up there. You're absolutely right.

This discussion may be doomed to fall short though, because in order to know that bond you need to be aware of your spirit, and very few people have that awareness. So, we will talk of love and lust and person-to-person bonding, assuming we're talking about soul mates, when we're only talking about person-to-person relationships. The paring of two spirits is something entirely different, though it almost always involves love or leads to it.

What we won't get is, spirit and personna are two different things. We'll fail here because there will be two groups of people talking (there already are two groups), without becoming aware that they speak different languages -- languages which share the same words, but some of those words have entirely different meanings.

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Christopher
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33 posted 02-09-2006 11:18 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

The easy answer is to always defend a position by claiming that the other side hasn't experienced [fill-in-the-blank].

The reality is that regardless of whether you attach it to love or lust or friendship or the way she eats her ice cream sundae, common perception is the completion and I just can't support any theory that requires another individual to make [you] a whole person.
quote:
For me, a soulmate is the ultimate catalyst in teaching a soul about infinte love/universal love.  Sometimes, and I would venture a guess here, most times, it is an extremely painful growth process, and I think, involves loss almost always...the impetitus to force a soul to make a choice.
Another well-turned sentence. Apparently talking about soulmates inspires some good writing! You have me up to the end of this statement iliana. I will even go so far as to, heh, agree with what you say as an alternative/option. Spiritual growth, much as physical growth, is rarely painless. Another person can certainly aid (act as a catalyst) to that growth. In fact, one might even say that it _requires_ a person outside yourself in order to spur that growth; if left solely to ourselves, without interaction, where would we find the impetus to experience or desire that growth?

After that, though - I still have to disagree. Your sense of self is exactly that - yours. No one else can cause or choose to destroy that. Only you can.
iliana
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34 posted 02-09-2006 11:36 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Christopher said:  "After that, though - I still have to disagree. Your sense of self is exactly that - yours. No one else can cause or choose to destroy that. Only you can."

Exactly, Christopher.  It is always about choice.     Sorry if I was not clear.  
iliana
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35 posted 02-09-2006 11:59 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Ed, I hope you're wrong about the discussion failing because I think it's an interesting topic.  Also, thanks for making the distinction clearer...I was trying to do that but fell short.  
Mysteria
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36 posted 02-09-2006 12:21 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

quote:
Ron stated, "Soul mates, in my opinion, aren't discovered, but are created. Day after day after day."
You hit the nail on the head there Ron!    Strangely enough, I think we refer to the result of our ongoing efforts as "love."  I like to think of it as total acceptance without judgement myself, and love is just a small and pleasureable part of it.
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37 posted 02-09-2006 12:25 PM       View Profile for Ratleader   Email Ratleader   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ratleader's Home Page   View IP for Ratleader

It won't, if people know there are two ways of looking at the same set of words...that's why I said it that way, to alert anyone who hadn't realized that was the case.

Yo Christopher -- not hiding, clarifying. There are things that not everyone has experienced, and when talking about them we have to take that into consideration.

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38 posted 02-09-2006 05:12 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

I agree completely, Ed - we do need to take it into consideration, but there's no justification to discount someone's reasoned opinion based solely on a presumed lack of like experience.
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39 posted 02-09-2006 05:15 PM       View Profile for Ratleader   Email Ratleader   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ratleader's Home Page   View IP for Ratleader

Amen -- and plenty for us to learn from both viewpoints, so.....

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iliana
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40 posted 02-09-2006 07:34 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

  wishing more would express opinions here
Local Rebel
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41 posted 02-09-2006 08:51 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

ok... I think the Stupid pill ma nature gives us when we fall in love is a truly wonderous drug.  Mind you, understanding how the drug works doesn't make me any more immune to it than understanding heroin would make me immune to that.

But, over time it wears off.  

After that -- reference my post on love.
Ron
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42 posted 02-09-2006 09:11 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I think I understand what you're suggesting, Iilana, but I don't see that process necessarily requiring a connection to love, souls, or mates. Making choices is simply a part of life. Indeed, I think the most difficult choices, the choices that offer the greatest potential for growth, rarely involve others directly. Don't believe me? Ask a priest, a teacher, or a soldier. Ask Martin Luther King, Jr. or James Earl Ray. Ask Nathan Hale or Benedict Arnold. I don't believe people are forced to make choices because they meet someone with whom they connect. The choices are always there, always waiting to be made.

Moreover, famous names and circumstances not withstanding, I don't think people are shaped by the big choices so much as the big choices are shaped by the people . . . and by the tens of thousands of small choices that inevitably lead up to big moments. The catalyst for all those choices isn't a soul mate, but just day-to-day living. And that's okay, too, because I think, for anyone searching for growth, day-to-day living offers all the challenge that will ever be needed.

Ed, Sue, your view of soul mates is lovely on the surface, but it could never work for me because it implies a static, unchanging relationship between people who either never grow or who, miraculously, always grow in the same direction at the same pace.

"Two pieces that perfectly fit" can never be more than a snapshot. The movie, viewed with an added dimension of time, would either show two pieces that stop fitting quite so well or, if they work really hard at it, two pieces that ebb and flow and occasionally even overlap and pinch.

What works for me isn't a relationship that starts out perfect and always stays that way, but rather a relationship that starts out good and, every passing day, grows into something better. I just can't see that happening without a lot of work and at least a little pain.


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43 posted 02-09-2006 09:27 PM       View Profile for Ratleader   Email Ratleader   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ratleader's Home Page   View IP for Ratleader

Static? Unchanging? Goodness no, Ron -- that's the opposite of what my view is, and the opposite of what I said in my response.

As I said up there, it's about growth and change.

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iliana
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44 posted 02-09-2006 09:29 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

"What works for me isn't a relationship that starts out perfect and always stays that way, but rather a relationship that starts out good and, every passing day, grows into something better. I just can't see that happening without a lot of work and at least a little pain."

Ron, I appreciate everything you said and agree with most of it as to relationships in general.  The soulmate/twin flame relationship is a rare thing that I do believe exists as I believe I have experienced it.  Not a physical intimacy but a spiritual one.  At first, extremely frightening...later painful...and ultimately I believe we both have gained better understanding of universal love.  It has been an association which has changed both our lives 100% for the better, but not without great pain and having to face the truths about ourselves unfolded within the confines of mutual respect and complete acceptance.  
littlewing
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45 posted 02-09-2006 09:33 PM       View Profile for littlewing   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for littlewing

I see what everyone is saying and agree with so much of it especially the fact that NOBODY but yourself can ultimately change the course of your life or your self/spirit.

That is up to you essentially.

*nodding to Christopher*

What I am saying is by having that rare bond with someone, it can AID you in finding where you need to be, help you to realize your mistakes, learn from them and move on or stay where you are if its a good thing. (sometimes even if its a bad thing, there must be something to be learned there either by you or by them, or both)

I dont think life experience has such a role in it - it is more a level of maturity and spiritual awakening or awareness.

*nodding to Ed*

Age is a perfect example of that.  

I see no "age" in people . . . I see what is inside of them, that is where the connection lie.

Spirit.  

Sharon hit it right there, love being a "bonus" to a spiritual bonding.

Your "soulmate"  (I despise using that word) doesn't even always have to be about love either.

We are here to learn guys.  Think of how  many people you have been bonded to that have caused you grief or you caused them grief. That doesnt mean they may NOT have been a "soulmate" . . . I am grateful for those lessons or else I probably would not be having this discussion right now, which I think is an amazing one at that and would like to see it keep going.

We all learn from this.

Ron?

Sue, your view of soul mates is lovely on the surface, but it could never work for me because it implies a static, unchanging relationship between people who either never grow or who, miraculously, always grow in the same direction at the same pace.

I have to disagree with you here because I am living this and have been and I am not stuck in some unchanging world or have rose colored glasses on either.  NOTHING is static about the people I am bonded to, through them I found so much in life, without them, it just would have been a much more difficult path.  

Can I say I would have eventually learned what I have?  I don't know.  Maybe, maybe not.  I am grateful for such people and there is not one thing that occurs in my daily life in the bonds I speak of that does not allow me, unconditionally, to grow, as spirit, as a human, a woman, mother, lover, friend and writer.

As a person.

I would liken NOT having such bonds to owning a library full of books I never read.

I never said "perfect fit".

NOTHING is perfect.  Life is hard.  Have I said this was perfect, I did not.  I said it existed and I am aware of it and its lovely.

Your ending lines are correct.  I completely agree.  That doesnt mean that there isnt an amazing spiritual bond present.  

People stay together every day for the wrong reasons, people that don't fit AT ALL and why?

Maybe they have that bond, maybe it isnt a "love" bond.  Maybe they have lessons to learn.  

I never said this was all about love.

I said it was a spiritual journey and it is.

Beautifully said Jo:

but not without great pain and having to face the truths about ourselves unfolded within the confines of mutual respect and complete acceptance.  


Lessons, its all about lessons.  



  
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46 posted 02-09-2006 10:30 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
The soulmate/twin flame relationship is a rare thing that I do believe exists as I believe I have experienced it.  Not a physical intimacy but a spiritual one.  At first, extremely frightening...later painful...and ultimately I believe we both have gained better understanding of universal love.  It has been an association which has changed both our lives 100% for the better, but not without great pain and having to face the truths about ourselves unfolded within the confines of mutual respect and complete acceptance.

I've experienced that kind of relationship, too, Jo. More than once.

Many, many, many times more than once.

Sisters, parents, children, lovers, and even a few very special friends. In my experience, Jo, the flames aren't twin but are legion. They exist anywhere people are willing to open themselves to real honesty, both with themselves and with others. And, yea, I've also had relationships (two in 56 years) where the flame only flickered and died, snuffed by pretense and fear. Those are the exceptions, though, not the rule.


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47 posted 02-09-2006 10:35 PM       View Profile for wranx   Email wranx   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for wranx

A discussion like this can be much like trying to explain the color orange to a blind man.
The idea of soulmate might be explained by the advent of a complete and innate understanding of the "other".
An instant understanding requiring little effort.
I know of two people, a generation removed, raised in disimilar fashion, and in separate geography...who truly do "get" the other person in every respect.
But it runs deeper than that.
Not so much mirror images, as being able to see one's self in the other...whether in the mundane or the esoteric, the differences are merely semantics.
And yes, I'm well aware how "love" can be manufactured, bent and shaped to fit, if you will. But that's effort, and what this is, is nothing if not effortless.
Pain? I dont think the notion of soulmate precludes pain. It occurs, and both people know the whys and the hows of it...Both understand its causes and effects, and if its worth it (and it would be) will overcome it.

Please excuse the disjointed ramble...lol
Just my thoughts on the subject


iliana
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48 posted 02-09-2006 10:42 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Wranx....I think you and I are on the same page here.  

Ron....while I truly appreciate your perspective and have also had the types of relationships you describe (and still do in most cases), I think that wranx's description is closer to my definition.  
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49 posted 02-09-2006 10:50 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Ron, it's like wranx said....trying to explain the color orange to a blind person -- I don't think I am able to come up with the right words to explain why this soulmate thing is any different than what you have described.  I can, however, add that it is truly a "mystical" thing.  

Also, I think there is the possibility that "twin souls" and "soul clusters" exist.  For me, those are different -- all extremely special relationships.  All are there out of love even if sometimes a person plays the villian; and all are for the purpose of growth, not just for ourselves individudally but for themselves, too.  

I don't pretend to know the real truth of any of this and can only base it on my own experience.  

I would add, Ron, that if you have experienced this more than one time, you are truly, truly blessed!  ('course I think you're blessed anyhow )

Maybe I've just been reading too much Edgar Cayce.  lol

[This message has been edited by iliana (02-09-2006 11:41 PM).]

 
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