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Passions in Poetry

No immortal soul for man

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Arnold M
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0 posted 01-22-2006 09:42 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

While the idea of man living on after death, in some other form, body or spirit, has been spoken of, philosophised by many peoples and cultures for unknown centuries, I unequivocally say, that only the God inspired Bible has the answer.  

And it is: MAN IS A LIVING SOUL.  A soul does not enter man upon birth, or before birth, for that matter.

Gen.2:7 reads, "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" AV.  "Being" is used for "soul" in many versions.

After reading all the places in the Bible where the
soul of man is referred to, one will find that the Scriptures relate knowledge, memory, thought, love, joy, delight, bitterness, distress, impatience, mourning, sorrow, grief, abhorrence and hatred to the soul.

SOUL could be said to be the consciousness, the feelings, the desires produced by the breath of life vitalizing the body.  

Many times man is called a "soul" in the scriptures:  Gen.12:5 "Abram took his wife and the souls they had gotten in Haran."  46:26 "All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt..."
Acts 2:41 "They that gladly received the word were baptized: and the same day were added...about three thousand souls."  2:43 "And fear came upon every soul."
   And we say that today, like, "that poor soul."

Many times the soul is said to die or be dead:
Lev.24:17 "And he that killeth any man (soul) shall surely be put to death."  Num."Let me (my soul) die the death of the righteous."  Josh.10:28 "And that day Joshua.....smote it with the edge of the sword and the king thereof....and the souls therein."  See also: Josh.10:30,32,35,37&39; 11:11; Jer.2:34

The soul can be destroyed, taken away: Lev.23:30 "And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, that same soul will I destroy from among his people." See 1 Ki.19:10; Psa.31:13; Prov.1:19; Ezek.22:27, 33:6; Acts 3:23

Since the soul is the sensation, the desire, the thoughts, the feelings and all that comprises consciousness, when man dies, the body is said to return to the dust, the soul is said to go to the unseen (Sheol or Hades), and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

While Hades is equivalent to Sheol (see Acts 2:25-28, quoted from Psa.16:10), Sheol is translated "grave" half the time in the AV.

All for now, Arnold  
Grinch
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1 posted 01-24-2006 05:29 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


I believe there is no life after death, that there is no God and that the bible is a book written by men for men without any supernatural intervention.

Iíll either never know that I was right or I'll find out I was grossly mistaken, shortly after drawing my final breath.


jbouder
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2 posted 01-24-2006 05:35 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

If the end result is the same, then the intermediate state question really isn't all that important.

Jim
JesusChristPose
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3 posted 01-24-2006 06:19 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"If the end result is the same, then the intermediate state question really isn't all that important."

~ Says whom and by what authority?

"If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead."

Huan Yi
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4 posted 01-24-2006 07:03 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


Anyone afraid of dying
peacefully in thier sleep?
JesusChristPose
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5 posted 01-24-2006 07:04 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

I am not afraid to die at all.

"If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead."

Huan Yi
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6 posted 01-24-2006 11:51 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


Then you've never seen anyone die long
and in pain.
hush
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7 posted 01-25-2006 02:43 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Huan, I believe the long and in pain part is suffering, not dying. Someone could be afraid to suffer and not afraid to die.

Also... I'm not sure I see the point of the original post, and it doesn't seem like anyone else does, either, since nobody's really talking about it. So you believe in God. Good for you. What are we supposed to be talking about?
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8 posted 01-25-2006 07:25 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Soul sleep...I'm tending more toward that point of view as oppossed to the more traditional understanding of a never-dying soul, a seperate entity, that lives on between the here-and-now and the resurrection. It seems to have more backing in scripture than the traditional view.

Rest in peace...how many times have we seen that on tombstones and in funeral programs? Maybe they really do.

Earth's crammed with heaven, and every common bush afire with God, but only he who sees takes off his shoes.
Elizabeth Barrett Browning

Arnold M
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9 posted 01-26-2006 01:16 AM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

I'd like to continue on:

The importance of understanding that man does not have an immortal soul; that he is a living soul, soul being the perception, the senses.  When man dies it is said his body returns to the soil from which it came, his soul(his experiences, feelings, senses)is said to return to the unseen(disappear), and his spirit(power of life) returns to God who gave it.

Therefore, when man goes to the grave, he goes to silence, where there is no knowledge, no remembrance, no praise. To live again he must be resurrected.  The soul doesn't sleep.  It is 'man' who is said to sleep the sleep of death.  'Sleep' being a metaphor for 'death'.  See Job 14:12-12; Psa.13:3; Jer.51:57; Dan.12:1-2; John 11:11-14; 1 Cor.15:16-18. 51-57; 1 Thes.4:13-18.

And, the most important point: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS CONSCIOUS ETERNAL TORMENT of the unsaved.

All for now,  Bick
Susan Caldwell
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10 posted 01-26-2006 09:09 AM       View Profile for Susan Caldwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Susan Caldwell

Arnold,

What if the Bible is fiction?

"too bad ignorance isn't painful"
~Unknown~

Essorant
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11 posted 01-26-2006 11:15 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Unless the authors meant and acknowledged the bible to be fiction, it is not fiction, as simply as we are not the authors.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (01-26-2006 12:42 PM).]

Essorant
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12 posted 01-26-2006 02:11 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Modern men seem to have a hard to time fathoming how fiction, myth, truth, history and science may all be treated fairly equally in the same work.
Today we tend to segregate and work things according to a predominate characteristic of only fiction, myth, truth,  history,  science, etc. but such segregation is not something that many early peoples necessarily did, or if they did, anywhere as fixedly as we do today.
For them learning was learning.  Everything contributed to it.  And there was and still is a very strong virtue in that, without removing the virtue of segregating it sometimes too, that we today are so knobby about.   The mistake to me is saying that only one gets to have any virtue at all, and the other gets none.  That approach I think is weakness and disrespectful to other beliefs.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (01-26-2006 02:42 PM).]

Stephanos
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13 posted 01-26-2006 04:39 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
jim: If the end result is the same, then the intermediate state question really isn't all that important.

Mike:~ Says whom and by what authority?


What does "authority" have to do with this particular question?  Thoughtful Christians disagree as to the nature of death ... whether the soul is one and the same as bodily life, or whether it is distinct and separable.  I tend to think that the weight of scripture leads to the latter (though I do believe in a bodily ressurrection).  But like Jim, I am wondering what is so important about the question?  Two believers could disagree on this, and yet be in agreement about the final corporeal ressurrection, Christ, piety, love, and a host of other things.  It's an interesting debate (if it can be done peacably), but it's not very practical.  


And we've had the conversation / debate SO many times.  It's a bit wearying, to be honest.  


But, if you would like to debate the reasons why we should even consider it central, or greatly important to Christian faith and practice ... we could do that.  We haven't really had that discussion yet.         


Susan:
quote:
What if the Bible is fiction?


Excuse me for answering (I know you addressed Arnold) ... But my first observation would be that, there would be no hope (other than bare philosophical speculation) for any life or existence beyond death.  That's a bitter pill to swallow.  And I know that some would say that my belief in Biblical Eternal Life is simply a childish denial of reality (no matter how dismal that reality turns out to be).  But wish-fulfillment, as an explanation for Christian faith is suspect for two reasons.  1) The desire for life and purpose beyond the grave is so prevalent to our psychology, emotions, and general human make-up, that it almost seems like it was properly "meant to be".  2) Wish fulfillment can just as easily be applied to atheism.  If there is a general awareness of God among people, and a general awareness of his moral law, then "wishing him away" would naturally be the response of some.  The Judgement of God, and post-mortem consequences of living a sinful life, are at least as frightening as the prospects of final irrevocable death.


Of course these aren't infallible "proofs", only clues in my mind.  


Stephen.
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14 posted 01-26-2006 07:33 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Maybe Arnold can answer why his thread's topic matter is important to discuss...

"What does "authority" have to do with this particular question?  Thoughtful Christians disagree as to the nature of death ... whether the soul is one and the same as bodily life, or whether it is distinct and separable."

~ Well, if the Bible is correct, false christianity is widespread as Satan deceives the whole world. So, there has to be Biblical truths and Biblical falsities, and the understanding of belief of either that separate the true Christians of the little flock and the false christians whom are deceived by the false angel appearing as a minister of righteousness.

~ And it is obvious that the immortal soul doctrine is based on pagan philosophies and doctrines of men, as those who worship believing these doctrines are worshiping in vain.

"If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead."

Arnold M
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15 posted 01-26-2006 07:46 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Susan, I would challenge you to read a book or two in the New Testament, say John, or  Romans, and then after reading it, if you can still say it might be fiction, I would be surprised, and would like to know.

Stephen, we did discuss this subject to some extent on the UR thread, but all you brought up, (against the many, many verses pointing out the soul, man's experience, his feelings, can die, be killed, because, man is a living soul), is the account of Saul talking to the apparition of Samuel, and the vision of Moses and Esias seen by Peter, James and John on the mount when Jesus was transfigured.

You say that thoughtful Christians disagree as to the nature of death.  That may be true, but as "thoughtful" I wonder.  How can all the verses attributing "death, dying, destroyed, etc" to the soul (because man dies), be ignored?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from my research, I've concluded that the belief in an immortal soul was argued and promoted, primarily by St.Agustine.  He accepted the Platonic philosophy wholeheartedly because, he argued, if the righteous are to enjoy eternal bliss, then the wicked must suffer eternal torment, and therefore, their soul must be immortal.

Evidently, by his time, "aion or age" had become "forever" in most cases, and the adjective "aionios--age lasting, or pertaining to the ages" had become "eternal or everlasting".

Why am I posting this topic?  Because, in so many of Topics in this forum, the question of heaven and hell comes up.  And how could a loving God send someone, say, who has never heard of Jesus, be sent to suffer for eternity?

For those who know the Bible: In Romans 9, as well as other places in the OT, God is likened to a Potter and mankind the clay.
He makes vessels of honour and vessels of dishonour.  The vessels of dishonour are called "vessels of wrath fitted for deatruction".  Did these 'vessels' choose to be this?  Of course not.  And the 'vessels of honour'.  Is it because they willed to believe, to be saved?  NO.  Paul, in Rom.3:10-12, tells us, "There is none righteous, no not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." etc.  Apart from God's mercy, no one would be saved.

And what of the wicked vessels of wrath?  They will indeed face God's wrath and power.
On those on the earth during the last half of the tribulation period, there will be poured out the woes and plagues described in the book of Revelation.  And, at the Great White Throne, Christ will judge all the wicked there, and as Paul says in Romans 2, Christ will judge according to truth, rendering every man according to his deeds: on them will come tribulation, anguish, indignation and wrath.  And those whose name is not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

And I conclude with this: If the Potter can make vessels of dishonour, He can certainly remake them into vessels of honour when He wants.

Bye for now, Bick





Stephanos
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16 posted 01-27-2006 12:38 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

JCP:
quote:
Well, if the Bible is correct, false christianity is widespread as Satan deceives the whole world. So, there has to be Biblical truths and Biblical falsities, and the understanding of belief of either that separate the true Christians of the little flock and the false christians whom are deceived by the false angel appearing as a minister of righteousness.


What gain would Satan have in deceiving people into believing that the soul can be separate from the body ... when either way, ressurrection seems to be the Biblical focus of the end?  The difference seems trivial.  And as one who studies the Bible, I don't see the "gravity" that you see.  


The "true" church versus the "false" Christians, is a hard angle for you to argue from, as a non-believer.  For, if I take your view seriously, ALL the Biblical doctrines become suspect.  If no one can claim exclusive truth, then no one can say whether a man even has a soul ... much less what the nature of the soul is.  Remember how absolutely you believe that truth is truly relative ... that "your truth" can never be "my truth", etc ... etc ...?  From your perspective, what does authority have to do with it?


If you say that you are merely arguing about the Bible, from it's own claims, (which I would still ask why? if you hold no vested interest in absolute Truth) I would reply that the Bible never makes such peripheral doctrinal points, central to one's salvation.  Even Arnold feels, (in spite of his enthusiasm on this point) that there are Christians who disagree with him, who are going to be saved nonetheless.  So if believers, in general, do not assume such an "extreme" gravity, concerning this doctrine (and NO, scripture has not been shown to do so either), why do you?  If you say that the Bible is very sober, and grave, when speaking about the soul, I will agree.  But a man's philosophical undertanding of the exact nature of the soul ... is not put on that same plane.  The Savior of the soul, is much more important than surmisings about the soul.      


Arnold:
quote:
Stephen, we did discuss this subject to some extent on the UR thread, but all you brought up, (against the many, many verses pointing out the soul, man's experience, his feelings, can die, be killed, because, man is a living soul), is the account of Saul talking to the apparition of Samuel, and the vision of Moses and Esias seen by Peter, James and John on the mount when Jesus was transfigured.


I really don't think I ignore them.  I interpret them, and measure them in view of a larger context of scripture.  I certainly don't deny death.  I would like to ask you how you ignore all the verses which present the soul as separate from the body in certain instances?


quote:
That may be true, but as "thoughtful" I wonder.  How can all the verses attributing "death, dying, destroyed, etc" to the soul (because man dies), be ignored?


If I'm being "thoughtless", I'll at least reserve the right to doubt as Paul did, when he mused "whether in the body or out of the body, I know not ... God knows" (2 Corinthians 12:13).  Your view would make Paul's division of body and soul to be an error, and muddled thinking.  Was does that do to apostolic doctrine, in your opinion?


quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from my research, I've concluded that the belief in an immortal soul was argued and promoted, primarily by St.Agustine.  He accepted the Platonic philosophy wholeheartedly because, he argued, if the righteous are to enjoy eternal bliss, then the wicked must suffer eternal torment, and therefore, their soul must be immortal.



How is that "Platonic"?  Augustine's thinking differed from Platonism significantly.  


quote:
Why am I posting this topic?  Because, in so many of Topics in this forum, the question of heaven and hell comes up.  And how could a loving God send someone, say, who has never heard of Jesus, be sent to suffer for eternity?



Believing in "soul sleep" does not guarantee that someone will share your universalism.  There are those who believe in soul sleep, who still believe that God will resurrect the righteous and unrighteous at the end of the age ... unto an eternal state of reward or punishment.  There are also those who believe in a "soul" which can be separate from the body, who believe that God will save everyone.    


My point?  Universalism and soul sleep are two separate issues.  You mix them, all the time, moving from one to another without warning.  One does not support the other.


Now, if we get back to the issue of "soul sleep" alone ... why is it so important?  It is an intermediate state between here and there.  If your universalism isn't the issue (and it really can't be since the two are not logically or doctrinally co-dependent) then what IS the issue?  Try to answer without universalism.  Let's pretend I'm a universalist who still believes in a composite nature of man, body and soul.  And don't tell me there aren't any ... I know one personally.  


Stephen.
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17 posted 01-27-2006 11:50 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"Susan, I would challenge you to read a book or two in the New Testament, say John, or  Romans, and then after reading it, if you can still say it might be fiction, I would be surprised, and would like to know."

Arnold,

She could just as well come back and challenge you to read other parts of the bible.

How do you accept your loving God plaguing people and destroying new borns as in Exodus, and other violent acts attributed to God in the bible, as "facts"?  
Personally I may never accept them.

But I don't let that overwhelm me from appreciating the things I do accept in the bible.  

JesusChristPose
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18 posted 01-27-2006 09:13 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"What gain would Satan have in deceiving people into believing that the soul can be separate from the body ... when either way, ressurrection seems to be the Biblical focus of the end?"

~ Just as in the OT, one lamb was the truth and one was Azazael the Goat. The same as why Satan would want people believing in vain philosophies of men. Of course, the immortal soul doctrine is just one piece of puzzle in how Satan goes about deceiving the whole world.

"The difference seems trivial."

~ It seems trivial to those who are deceived.

"And as one who studies the Bible, I don't see the "gravity" that you see."

~ Many followers of false christianity study the Bible.

"The "true" church versus the "false" Christians, is a hard angle for you to argue from, as a non-believer."

~ I already explained myself on that matter. It is quite simple to understand.

"For, if I take your view seriously, ALL the Biblical doctrines become suspect.  If no one can claim exclusive truth, then no one can say whether a man even has a soul ... much less what the nature of the soul is.  Remember how absolutely you believe that truth is truly relative ... that "your truth" can never be "my truth", etc ... etc ...?"

~ Absolutey, I remember. I have already told you and many others, I have been truly called, but have not lived up to the call. One can't just say, "Save me, Jesus!" A preacher can't say, "Come and be saved."  God has to call, and He is not trying to save the entire world now. He is only calling a select few at this time.

"From your perspective, what does authority have to do with it?"

~ The authority comes from those who are truly called by the Holy Spirit of God and understand the truth, and don't rely on believing in the philosophies and doctrines of pagan men, like the overwhelming majority of the false christian church.

"Even Arnold feels, (in spite of his enthusiasm on this point) that there are Christians who disagree with him, who are going to be saved nonetheless."

~ Well, I can't speak for Arnold, but there is no doubt in my mind that the Bible teaches that vast overwhelming majority of ALL MANKIND will eventually be saved, including the many who are followers of false Christianity today.

"If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead."

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quote:
jbouder wrote: "If the end result is the same, then the intermediate state question really isn't all that important."

Arnold M. wrote: "Says whom and by what authority?"


It really seems quite simple.  If resurrection and eternal life are the end result, then it doesn't matter if the soul sleeps or exists in some conscious, disembodied state during the interim.

If all that faces us is oblivion, why argue about it?  It seems our time and energies could be directed in so many more productive directions.

Mandamus
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20 posted 01-28-2006 04:27 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Maybe that is what Satan wants people to think...

"If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead."

Stephanos
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quote:
maybe that's what Satan wants people to think.

Care to try and give a reason why?  If not, then what we have here is a naked article of faith, on your part.  What I mean by "naked" is: unlike most faith claims of the Bible, it has no obvious "reasons" supporting or surrounding it.


If what jbouder says is true, about the final destination, then why would Satan gain so much by propagating this "heretical" notion of a disembodied soul?  And in answering this, try not to just restate your view that Satan wants to mislead people on this issue (a reiteration of the faith claim itself).  

Stephen.
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22 posted 01-28-2006 05:32 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Respond to my direct reply to you first... part of the answer you seek here can be found there.

Stephanos
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23 posted 01-28-2006 05:49 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

JCP,

There's nothing there in way of reason, other than "The deceived will not see the gravity" ... and "it's just part of Satan's deception".   I did go back, you did not answer my question there.  That's why I didn't repy directly to those statements.


Stephen.
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24 posted 01-28-2006 06:01 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Any answer I give you, you would not understand, so why even bother? You shouldn't. Obviously, you were not elected.

In the OT, 2 lambs were led for sacrifice, both unblemished to the eye, unless the Spirit of God was upon a person, one was sacrificed - a prelude of Christ to come, and one was driven to the desert; Azazael, the Goat. This is a very important and completely misunderstood passage by the false christian church, along with Ezekial's vision of the Vally of the Bones....

The entire immortal soul philosphy is pagan, and a falsity of the devil. The immortal soul doctrine has many tangents, all which lead to a false christianity.

It is quite logical to those called, and it is right there in the Bible...

If the Bible teaches that Satan deceives the entire world and that there is a false christian church, in which Christ says that in vain do they worship me believing in doctrines and commandments of men, and that the true Christian church is called the "little flock," then quite obviously, the majority of christians are worshipping in Satan's, who appears as minister of righteousness, church.

But like I said, don't bother with it, no matter what I, or any truly called person would say to you, would not make a difference - you have to be CALLED. And like I said, that doesn't mean a preacher saying, "Come accept Jesus, brother." That is not being called.

The Bible clearly teaches that practically all of mankind will be saved, and that only the few incorrigible wicked will be lost forever, not to suffer forever, but to be put to, as Paul called it, the second death.

You may as well just put me down and call me a loon. It doesn't matter to me.  

EDIT: I'd be in good company, indeed!



"If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead."
 
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