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Passions in Poetry

No immortal soul for man

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Mandamus
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25 posted 01-28-2006 08:31 PM       View Profile for Mandamus   Email Mandamus   Edit/Delete Message     View IP for Mandamus

quote:
Maybe that is what Satan wants people to think...


LOL.  Not the first, nor (I suspect) will it be the last time I've been likened to Satan.

I'm more inclined to think, however, that the Great Deceiver would get more pleasure out of our getting embroiled in a time consuming and purely theoretical debates.  After all, imagine all the good we could do in this world without being distracted by trivial pursuits like discovering whether souls are immortal, the number of angels that would fit on the head of a needle, or whether God could create a rock He could not lift.

What, really, is more important?  Winning an argument about abstraction, or picking someone up when they've been knocked down in the real world?  Loving your neighbor, if I recall, IS one of Jesus' more weighty commandments.  You seem to know quite a few verses of the Bible ... more than I do, for sure.  So where does Jesus rank refuting the immortality of the soul?

Mandamus
JesusChristPose
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26 posted 01-28-2006 09:19 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"LOL.  Not the first, nor (I suspect) will it be the last time I've been likened to Satan."

~ Your "LOL" was all for naught, for I never likened you personally to Satan. You must of misread what I stated.

"I'm more inclined to think, however, that the Great Deceiver would get more pleasure out of our getting embroiled in a time consuming and purely theoretical debates."

~ And there is the problem, when a carnal mind is inclined to think, it is not thinking with the power of the Holy Spirit, and therefore cannot comprehend these matters.

"After all, imagine all the good we could do in this world without being distracted by trivial pursuits like discovering whether souls are immortal,"

~ They call that in critical thought, the slippery slope, and I am not sliding down that chute.

"the number of angels that would fit on the head of a needle, or whether God could create a rock He could not lift."

~ If you choose not to read the entire debate on this subject matter, or without an objective mind care to understand the entire reasoning behind why an immortal soul doctrine is of the devil, then you will come to the conclusion that you just came to, by comparing it to angels and rocks.

"What, really, is more important?  Winning an argument about abstraction, or picking someone up when they've been knocked down in the real world?  Loving your neighbor, if I recall, IS one of Jesus' more weighty commandments.  You seem to know quite a few verses of the Bible ... more than I do, for sure.  So where does Jesus rank refuting the immortality of the soul?"

~ I spoke too soon about the slippery slope, because here it is again. Are you saying that just loving your neighbor gets you a ticket for immortality in heaven? If so, Stephanos will most certainly correct you on how good deeds mean nothing without Jesus.

~ You seem not to be open-minded on this subject matter. Good luck to you.

"If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead."

Ron
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27 posted 01-28-2006 10:43 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
You may as well just put me down and call me a loon. It doesn't matter to me.  

You're not a loon, Mike. You've just been deceived by Satan. You've been fooled into thinking you were called when clearly you have not been, tricked into thinking you arrived so you might never realize, for you, the journey never started. The false victory you claim, unlike any true triumph, is reflected in neither word nor deed. You can't possibly see it, won't ever admit it, because your eyes are blinded by the lies you call truth, but Satan's sword has drawn your blood, and the name of the blade is Hubris.

WAIT A MINUTE!

I don't really believe any of that crap, of course. If I did, I certainly wouldn't offer it as support for an argument. Like any other Call to Authority fallacy, what Satan "wants" or "does" is completely irrelevant. "Satan wants you to believe that" is neither an argument for nor against Truth. It's just an assumption, and an unsupportable one at that.

I have to admit, though, that stuff sure is fun to write. Easy, too. A lot easier, perhaps, than silly things like logic and evidence. Getting personal, questioning the motives of other posters, telling others what they can and cannot see, attacking the person instead of the post, those are NOT the reason this forum exists.
JesusChristPose
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28 posted 01-29-2006 12:31 AM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Ron,

I understand your point, completely.

However, there are a few areas I would like to address...

Firstly, I am just answering the questions asked, honestly. I could not be honest and lie or be honest and state what I state. You tell me what is the best way to go?

Secondly, and most importantly, although it may seem that I am telling Stephanos, Jim, and others that they cannot see or understand the truth, the huge, and I mean huge difference between what Stephanons and Jim believe in, although they may not be honest to admit, is that at least from what I believe, they will be saved... they and the vast majority of mankind, which would most likely include practically everone on this site... now if that is a bad thing or something that this forum is NOT about, then I don't get it.



You ask for evidence, Ron... but once again, people's minds are already made up, so no matter what evidence is offered, it wouldn't make one bit of difference.

"If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead."

Grinch
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29 posted 01-29-2006 01:22 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

JCP,

“You ask for evidence, Ron... but once again, people's minds are already made up, so no matter what evidence is offered, it wouldn't make one bit of difference.”

If you don’t offer any evidence how are you expecting to convince people? Saying it wouldn’t make a bit of difference doesn’t make any sense – given sufficient and irrefutable evidence a difference is almost inevitable.

“Firstly, I am just answering the questions asked, honestly.”

Great, here are some questions I’m honestly interested in finding the answers to:

1 Does God exist and if so how do you know?
2 Does Satan exist and if so how do you know?
3 Does the soul exist and if so how do you know?
4 Does heaven exist and if so how do you know?
5 Does hell exist and if so how do you know?
6 Is the bible the word of god if so how do you know?

[This message has been edited by Grinch (01-29-2006 02:00 PM).]

JesusChristPose
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30 posted 01-29-2006 01:45 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"If you don’t offer any evidence how are you expecting to convince people? Saying it wouldn’t make a bit of difference doesn’t make any sense – given sufficient and irrefutable evidence a difference is almost inevitable."

~ I already offered evidence in the past. I am just weary of providing it again. Besides that, it is a fact that most people will not change their minds on religious views, especially when the person who is providing the evidence is an "enemy" to the person receving it. Biases and subject thought happen to rule within the human mind.

"Great, here are some questions I’m honestly interested in finding the answers to:

1 Does God exist and if so how do you know?
2 Does Satan exist and if so how do you know?
3 Does the soul exist and if so how do you know?
4 Does heaven exist and if so how do you know?
5 Does hell exist and if so how do you know?
6 Is the bible the word of god if so how do you know?"


~ These are questions for a different thread and are not on topic with the subject matter. The basis of this thread is presuming that there is a Christian God and that the Bible is the Word of God.

"If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead."

Grinch
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31 posted 01-29-2006 02:42 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


JCP,

“~ These are questions for a different thread and are not on topic with the subject matter.”

If the subject matter is the soul, god etc. how can the questions not be relevant?

“The basis of this thread is presuming that there is a Christian God and that the Bible is the Word of God.”

Well there’s your problem!

You can’t supply unequivocal evidence that’s built solely on two presumptions; all you end up with is another presumption. You can ask opinions, request educated guesses and assumptions based on a presumption, and to be honest that seems to be pretty much what you’ve got, but they’re all fairly useless until you prove your original presumptions correct.

Lets presume for instance that nursery rhymes are actually true, let’s also presume that the bovine population of the USA have serious intentions to enter the space race.

Given those two presumptions is it true that a cow could reach sufficient velocity while jumping to leave the earth’s atmosphere, orbit the moon and then touchdown safely back on earth.

On the basis of the evidence in the nursery rhyme I’d have to say no, the cow could perform the task up to the point of actually jumping the moon but there’s no clear evidence in the text to suggest that a successful re-entry and landing is feasible. However some sources would interpret a ‘jump’ to consist of an initial leap and a subsequent landing as a single action, in which case it may be possible.

See what I mean.

Ron
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32 posted 01-29-2006 07:00 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
You can’t supply unequivocal evidence that’s built solely on two presumptions; all you end up with is another presumption. You can ask opinions, request educated guesses and assumptions based on a presumption, and to be honest that seems to be pretty much what you’ve got, but they’re all fairly useless until you prove your original presumptions correct.

I suspect Euclid would strongly disagree with you, Grinch.

I honestly doubt there is anything that doesn't start with and firmly rest upon a foundation of assumption. Logic has little to do with "proving" the truth of our axioms, but rather with exploring the internal consistency of those assumptions. You can argue all day long that trisecting an angle with naught but straightedge and compass is possible, but your arguments are unlikely to find willing ears if you adamantly refuse to start with the same assumptions as everyone else.

The goal of critical thinking has never been to eliminate assumptions, but rather to first agree on them and then explore where that road goes.


Grinch
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33 posted 01-29-2006 08:29 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Ron,

Assumptions are indeed necessary but evidence to prove the validity of an assumption can’t be another assumption alone – at some point fact must validate fiction, even if the evidence is proof of usefulness, otherwise all you end up with is at best an unverifiable theory and at worst a series of useless assumptions.

"... a hypothesis is a statement whose truth is temporarily assumed, whose meaning is beyond all doubt."

Albert Einstein

The key word is temporarily; this infers that at some point the assumption or hypothesis will be tested and either accepted or rejected based on verifiable evidence (fact).

(Euclid’s fifth postulate is beyond me – I’m still trying to fathom the Birthday Paradox)


JesusChristPose
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34 posted 01-29-2006 08:57 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"Well there’s your problem!"

~ It's not my problem at all. Like I said, the questions you ask are for another thread and subject matter. We are discussing the question or validity, if you will, of whether the Bible teaches that man possesses an immortal soul or not.

~ In critical thinking, keeping issues separate, as in this case, is a must.

"If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead."

Essorant
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35 posted 01-29-2006 09:26 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"Great, here are some questions I’m honestly interested in finding the answers to:

1 Does God exist and if so how do you know?
2 Does Satan exist and if so how do you know?
3 Does the soul exist and if so how do you know?
4 Does heaven exist and if so how do you know?
5 Does hell exist and if so how do you know?
6 Is the bible the word of god if so how do you know?"
  

Yes, the same way we may know anything exists: evidence.  

Arnold M
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36 posted 01-30-2006 09:56 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Stephan, I'm sorry if it sounded like you and others are 'thoughtless.' Wrong way to say it.

Of course, with any Biblical doctrine or  teaching, to arrive at one's opinion of the truth, requires a measuring and interpreting using the complete context of Scripture.

Another point.  I do not believe the 'soul sleeps.'  There again, this shows how you read my inputs and concluded, wrongly, I believe in 'soul sleeping.'  No where is that term used.  Man is said to 'be asleep' when dead, not his soul. In John 11:11-14 Jesus, speaking of Lazarus who had died, 'Lazarus is sleeping".  And there are other passages.

Yes, Paul couldn't say whether he 'was in the body, or out of the body,'for only God knows.  And he says in 2 Cor.12:1, "I must go on boasting.  Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord." NIV.
I interpret his being 'caught away to the third heaven' as being in a vision or dream.

My statement about St.Augustine accepting the Platonic philosophy 'wholeheartedly' was wrong.  Since rereading "The City of God", I must correct myself.  My copy is by Image Book, translated by Walsh, Zema, Monahan and Honan.  In Book VIII, Chapter 7, page 155, Augustine says, "Certainly, the Platonists, whom we rightly prefer to all others..."  But, I didn't read anywhere that the belief in an immortal soul came from Plato.  Seemingly, Augustine was familiar with all the philosophies of his time.  Actually, his argument is that an immortal soul, and a body that will never die, is based upon a number of verses such as Matt.25:46, "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." And others speaking of "everlasting torment".  IMO, Augustine's views were based on the Latin Vulgate, not on the Greek Scriptures, where "aionios" is interpreted as "eternal" instead of "age-abiding".

All for now.  Arnold
Stephanos
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37 posted 01-31-2006 12:55 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
JCP: The basis of this thread is presuming that there is a Christian God and that the Bible is the Word of God.

Grinch: Well there’s your problem!


I think what Mike was getting at, is that this thread is not meant as another thread to debate theism.  That would be reinventing the wheel, for the purposes of this thread.  Arnold, like myself, is a Christian.  And there are questions / debates within the context of Biblical Theism.  This is one of those.


Mike's "problem" is not that he presumes the Bible to be the word of God.  The problem is that he is debating vehemently as if he did.  One thread, he is an atheist, post-modern thinker, for whom truth is relative for everyone, insisting that no one should have the audacity to claim to know anything for sure, and impose it on others.  The next thread, he is "truly called", a remnant believer, and one of the "elect" who knows divinely revealed truth more than others who are blinded and deceived.  He seems to suggest that he believes some kind of definite truth about the nature of the soul ... but it doesn't fit his relativistic thinking, as expressed elsewhere.  


I would love to discuss with you, why I consider atheism to be just as problematic and even as fanciful as a fairy tale, when it comes to basic beliefs ... but that's for another thread.  


Arnold:
quote:
Man is said to 'be asleep' when dead, not his soul.


To me "sleep" is an awkward metaphor to apply to non-existence, or non-life.  At least, with a soul, there is something there which may "sleep".  

  
Stephen.
jbouder
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38 posted 01-31-2006 04:36 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Arnold:

Check Plato's "Phaedo" for a discussion on the immortality of man's soul.

Jim
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39 posted 01-31-2006 05:35 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


We're all going to find out eventually;
that's certain.  
Arnold M
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40 posted 01-31-2006 09:19 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Replies: Essorant, at this time I do accept all the accounts of the flood, the plagues, the deaths of whole cities, etc, as being true.  And God would not be the loving God I believe He is, if all the humans destroyed, were than judged and sent to a place of conscious eternal torment.

BUT, from my studies of more accurate, literal translations, I believe that the "vessels of wrath fitted for destruction" will be judged at the Great White Throne, where God's vengeance, through Christ the judge, will be repaid.  And at the end of the age-times, all will be made alive and be apart of the universal acclaim that Christ Jesus is Lord.  And the kingdom of God the Father will have no end.

I know, I'm back to UR, for I don't know how else to answer your question.

All for now.
JesusChristPose
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41 posted 02-01-2006 05:54 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"Check Plato's "Phaedo" for a discussion on the immortality of man's soul."

~ Was Plato a Christian - speaking with wisdom derived from the Holy Spirit of God, or was he a pagan of carnal mind?

"If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead."

Arnold M
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42 posted 02-01-2006 08:47 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Stephen, It is true that Christians from every denomination or interpretation of the Scriptures, should all fellowship together in our common salvation through faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ Jesus.

One of my purposes is to show from the scriptures, that in death, man is non-existent until resurrection; and therefore, since 'the wages of sin is death, man after death will not suffer in hell eternally.

And another purpose is to encourage all to search the scriptures concerning this subject, to then form an opinion.

I realize my view is quite small compared to all Christendom.  Maybe you would be willing to show from the scriptures, how this belief in an immortal soul was developed.  Or, if you are willing, what are the many scriptures that uphold that position?  I wish to know the truth.

Arnold
JesusChristPose
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43 posted 02-01-2006 09:14 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Hey Arnold (no pun intended),

I have to admit as some others have... what purpose does your belief in this matter serve if you believe that it doesn't make a difference with regards to salvation during our lifetime?

I don't get it.

"If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead."

jbouder
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44 posted 02-02-2006 01:25 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Opeth:

If you want to know what Plato taught regarding the immortality of the soul, you shouldn't "ask" Augustine.  You should "ask" Plato.

I cannot know whether Plato's wisdom was moved by some Divine hand anymore than you can.  But given God's propensity for using pagans to advance His plan, it certainly isn't outside the realm of possibility that God used Greek advances in rhetoric and philosophy to further His plan (e.g., Pharoah, Balaam and Balaak, Nebuchadnezzar, Darius, Xerxes, Caesar Augustus, Pontius Pilate -- and nations in general - the Phillistines ~read 1 Samuel, 1 Kings, et al.~, the Assyrians and Babylonians ~read Habbakkuk~ and the Medo-Persians ~read Nehemiah and Ezra(?)~).  

Surely, if you know anything about Paul of Tarsus, you'd realize that he was both a first-rate philosopher and letter writer familiar with the rhetorical tools made available to Roman citizens in the academies.  Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, and his other letters have training in classical rhetoric "written all over them."  Paul even makes use of direct quotes from Epiminides and other Greek poets in the divinely inspired Scripture you seem to idolize but refuse to interpret it beyond treating it as a magnetic poetry kit of non-contextual verses and phrases to arrange and rearrange at your "Holy Spirit" inspired whim.

Further, Your mystification (Bushism: mistake-ification) of the Holy Spirit's activity demonstrates your poor facility with the notion of Divine Providence - especially the notion of concurrent providence.

I like Ron's illustration.  Your retreat to "Holy Spirit" guidance isn't a demonstration of piety.  It is an escape from reason.  And the ability to reason is certainly an attribute of the image in which God created us.  As long as you fail to recognize this, I don't believe you'll ever get past the line of scrimmage.

Jim
JesusChristPose
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45 posted 02-02-2006 06:00 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

With all due respect Jim,

The Bible states on numerous occasions that a carnal mind cannot know God, but only a mind of a person elected by God and filled with His Holy Spirit.

Plato was a pagan and not full of the Spirit of God. Any belief he has and any beliefs of his believed by others is therefore of carnal mind.

If you think that keeps me at the starting line or whatever it was you said, that is your opinion, but not factual. And, if you are not one elected during this lifetime, it doesn't surprise me why you would think so.

"If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead."

Stephanos
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46 posted 02-03-2006 09:55 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

But JCP, your election is just "your" truth right? ... not Jims.  


How is your concept of election, compatible with your relativism?  Or you are just arguing as if you believed election were anything real?


Stephen.  
JesusChristPose
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47 posted 02-04-2006 01:22 AM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"But JCP, your election is just "your" truth right? ... not Jims."

~ Who is to say?  

"How is your concept of election, compatible with your relativism?  Or you are just arguing as if you believed election were anything real?"

~ Pharisees of Christ's day used language liek that. Keep it simple, as Christ did. The Bible that you believe in states that a person has to be elected, not me. One can't elect themselves, as the so called christian leaders portend. Only God can do that, and who are you to say that God hasn't called me to preach His truth to you, as well as others, on this message board?

You, Stephanos, actually put me in pretty good company with regards to that specific matter.

PS ~ Many are called, but few are chosen... maybe I am not to be chosen, but I certainly was called. And God isn't calling everyone at this time, and most certainly not all called will be "elected."  But, that is up to God to decide, not you or Jim or any other person.

"If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead."

Stephanos
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48 posted 02-04-2006 01:44 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
Stephen: But JCP, your election is just "your" truth right? ... not Jims.

JCP~ Who is to say?


That's my point.  According to your usual stance, who is to say?


But according to your present stance, YOU are definitely the one to say.  In fact you have been saying that Jim isn't elected, therefore it doesn't surprise you that he doesn't agree with you.


Leave the concept of election for just a moment ... can you see how inconsistent you're being in your arguments?  

quote:
You, Stephanos, actually put me in pretty good company with regards to that specific matter.



Right.  I don't claim relativism either.  But I also at least try to "give reason" rather than just tell others that they can't understand because they aren't elected.  


I believe in the doctrine of "election" by the way,  I just don't use it as an argument for truth.  If only God knows someone's "election", why did you seem to indicate that Jim isn't one of the elect, in order to bolster your views?  


Going back to the "pagan" argument you were making ...

If all pagans were of "carnal mind", does that mean that they knew nothing true?  Why do you think Paul quoted several pagan poet / philosophers in the New Testament?  I can quote and cite them if you wish.  Funny that Paul would quote such carnal minds, if everything they said was wrong.  Maybe it's not so cut and dry as you make it out to be.  I'm not saying that they were saints.  But I am saying that God has been liberal with his truths, enough that the apostle Paul would recognize common wisdom when he read it, regardless of the source.    


at least be as charitable as Paul (who was definitely one of the elect), when it comes to Pagan thinkers.  

Stephen.
Arnold M
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49 posted 02-11-2006 05:09 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Stephen: I agree with you that truths, noble ideas, etc, regardless of where they originated, are to be meditated on, as Paul writes in Phil.4:8, RSV, "Finally brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things."

Arnold
 
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