How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 Philosophy 101
 Belief and Science   [ Page: 1  2  ]
 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Belief and Science

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


25 posted 08-30-2006 02:32 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Stephanos

I thought it may be better to deal with your below point in this thread instead.

"You've never offered any compelling reason to think that lies can't be believed, just as truths are.  I heard a story the other day that a Charge-nurse at a hospital allowed some "maintenance men" in to do some work.  Turns out they were theives who stole several purses from the break-room, and not workers at all.  That Charge nurse believed a lie."


The Charge Nurse by no means believed a lie, Stephanos.  S/he believed the TRUTH of what was either said to her/him (the saying that they were maintanence men) or the truth of what was the appearance (the appearing that they were maintenance men).  That's why the nurse truly believed they were maintence men: because of the truths of them being called "maintenance men" and appearing to be maintenance men.

It is no different when it really is maintenance men.  The same thing is told, one believes it.  Or the same thing appears, one believes it.  But instead they are maintenance men.  In no way did s/he believe in what they were really committing: a lie and a crime.  S/he believed what sensibleness tells us to believe: the TRUTH of what they were called:  maintenance men.  And the TRUTH of what they appeared to be: maintenance men.  

Therefore the charge-nurse believed in truths, not lies.  

We may summarize it thus:

The truth of what      +      The truth of what          =   The truth of what
they were called              they appeared to be          s/he believed them to be

[This message has been edited by Essorant (08-31-2006 10:16 AM).]

Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


26 posted 08-30-2006 03:22 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
It is no different when it really is maintenance men.

That is a lie.


Stephen.
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


27 posted 08-30-2006 06:06 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I honestly hope, Essorant, that I never need to depend on you to tell me the truth about something.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


28 posted 08-31-2006 02:57 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Stephanos,
I don't believe it is.  
Unless there is a system of showing identification, if the nurse didn't know the men were maintainance workers the nurse would generally go by trust of word and appearance- that the men say they are and appear to be--whetther they are or aren't.  We should expect a hospital to have better security than that, but I think there are always cases in life where all we have are basically words and appearances.  If someone says and seems only most that he is this or that how should a man be blamed for believing it?  

Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


29 posted 08-31-2006 11:56 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

You are the one inferring "blame".  

Culpability is a separate issue from the truth / lie distinction.

Just because we can sympathize with someone for believing a lie, or think that they couldn't have reasonably believed any other way  ... a lie is still a lie.  (but for your curious information, yes there was a hospital policy about the ID of contracted workers, and it could have / should have been checked ... but that's beside the point for our present discussion)


Stephen.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


30 posted 08-31-2006 01:21 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I agree, a lie is still a lie.

But a mask is a mask too.  
I know I am cornered to believing in a "mask" of words and appearances in this life.  I can't know what for sure what may "lie" behind the surface of that "mask" .   But what I know is that that the "mask" is a truth itself.   Whether one treats me with kind words in order to get closer to stealing my money, or whether a person treats me with kind words in order to respect me, it is a truth that that person treats me with kind words.  I will believe in those kind words.  Not in some hidden agenda I can't know about. I believe that is believing in a truth, not a lie, no matter whether one means deception or not, wherever he uses kind words, I consider the usage of kind words, a truth that believed in, not a lie, no matter what may be behind them.   What is behind them is not something I know or can believe in.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (08-31-2006 04:12 PM).]

Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


31 posted 08-31-2006 04:47 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

In order for appearance to be either "truth" or "lie" it has to correspond with something else.  

A kind face is not "true" in and of itself.  That depends upon the person.

So I don't even know what you mean when you say that "a mask is a truth itself".  If something is an appearance, then the question of it's truth is inseperable from correspondence.


And in truth, Essorant, I'm done with this particular discussion.  


Stephen.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


32 posted 08-31-2006 05:35 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"In order for appearance to be either "truth" or "lie" it has to correspond with something else.  "


It corresponds with knowledge, Stephanos.  For example, the kind of nurse you mentioned would know what as "maintenance worker " is in respect to the hospital and would know how one may dress like in that enviroment.  When men came in and said or were said to be  " maintenance workers" it corresponded  to knowledge of a role known and expected.  If they appeared to be maintenance workers too they probably corresponded somehow in physical appearance, in dress, in equipment, etc that was known or expected of maintenance workers in the hospital. They not being maintenance workers doesn't change the truth that what they said corresponded to an expected role in the hosptial, and how one in that expected role customarily may appear.

I don't believe the person in the situtation "believed in a lie" but believed in the truth that their words and appearance corresponded with knowledge about maintenance workers.  But that's why secure access and identification systems, etc are put in place.  The person or his/her belief wasn't in any wrong to believe they were maintenance workers, but there is wrong where one is employed to take further and special security precautions and neglects to do so.

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


33 posted 08-31-2006 06:10 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"And in truth, Essorant, I'm done with this particular discussion"


I don't blame you  

Jason Lyle
Senior Member
since 02-07-2003
Posts 1519
With my darkling


34 posted 09-15-2006 10:27 PM       View Profile for Jason Lyle   Email Jason Lyle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Jason Lyle

I know this is simple and short, but ones belief or wishes, simply has little to do with the truth.

Jason
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> Philosophy 101 >> Belief and Science   [ Page: 1  2  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors