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Women & Philosophy

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serenity blaze
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0 posted 12-01-2005 12:48 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I have noticed that not a lot of women come traipsing in here. (Actually, I haven't noticed many men either. <--not a slur on anyone's manhood, either, it's just been rather dead in this forum. And yes, I felt a need to qualify that statement because I get more credit for sarcasm than I deserve.) Now, back to the subject--

While I agree with Mary Warnock's observations that women, historically, didn't have the opportunity to join the guys in the smoking parlor--it's a bit different today, methinks.

So where are all the women?

Educate me, please.

Do you think there are fundamental differences in the roles of gender that predisposition men to be better at argument and philosophy?


Larry C
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1 posted 12-01-2005 01:14 PM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

If that's true how come the wives always win disagreements with their husubands?

If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane,
I'd walk right up to heaven and bring you home again.

serenity blaze
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2 posted 12-01-2005 02:03 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Because they withhold sex?

(I'm gonna get in trouble for that one, I can just sense it)
Larry C
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3 posted 12-01-2005 02:58 PM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

inot2B
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4 posted 12-01-2005 03:04 PM       View Profile for inot2B   Email inot2B   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for inot2B

I've made very little comment in this section because it is usually about politics.  Everyone says the same thing over and over. In fact, I have yet to read where anyone has had a change of heart and switched to the other side.

I learned early in marriage not to withold sex.  I get my way alot more by begging for more.
serenity blaze
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5 posted 12-01-2005 03:26 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

*chuckling*

I'll bet you do!  

Thanks for peeking in here too.

Now let me see if I can get back to where I was going with this--naughty Larry--grins and chuckles here...

In the book I am reading, What Philosopher's Think, Mary Warnock argues that there weren't necessarily more male philosophers than women, but that traditional roles hindered acceptance of women's thought as "proper" philosophy as their writing tended to be linked with religious doctrine - that the marriage of religion and philosophy made it more socially acceptable for women to have a voice.

"It was perfectly acceptable for women to write religous, pious sorts of tracts, for want of a better word. That was an acceptable way for women to publish their thoughts and feelings, and I think it was because they weren't at that early stage educated in philosophy as a separate subject that, if they had philosophical thoughts, they tended to write them up as religious. So I think that is simply a matter of history."

I'm interested in hearing thoughts on this, as I have often wondered why, in my experience, I have women friends in this forum who would speak privately on the various topics offered here, but seemed skittish about replying.

Larry C
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6 posted 12-01-2005 03:37 PM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

Naughty Larry here,
I have never enjoyed philosophy from a personal perspective. When I took it in college there was an assignment on exestentialism(see I didn't even learn to spell it) that I refused to write because I had no interest in completing the reading of any of the articles we were to respond to. So 10 points cost me a letter grade, I didn't care.

So you can't trick me into a philosophical debate about whether or not I have to beg for sex!


If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane,
I'd walk right up to heaven and bring you home again.
serenity blaze
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7 posted 12-01-2005 03:40 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

LMAO

gawd I love ya Larry...
Martie
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8 posted 12-01-2005 05:03 PM       View Profile for Martie   Email Martie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Martie's Home Page   View IP for Martie

Hi Karen

"Do you think there are fundamental differences in the roles of gender that predisposition men to be better at argument and philosophy?"

I loved philosophy when I was in college...and still do, but that doesn't mean that I loved standing up in front of my classmates and debating about it.  I don't like doing that here either.  

Midnitesun
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9 posted 12-01-2005 05:36 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

I love to philosophize, but no one wants to listen! so instead? I rant, rave, bitch, squak, complain, politicize, criticize...
and all those other options left open to "WIMMEN"

Gentle Spirit
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10 posted 12-01-2005 06:05 PM       View Profile for Gentle Spirit   Email Gentle Spirit   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Gentle Spirit

I gotta agree with Kacy, I love philosophizing also, but usually no ones around that really is interested so I tend to do what Kacy does too..yanno..
complain, whine, bitch and moan
and yanno what else??

No one listens then either!  

Honestly though I do think that many women did, once upon a time, and possibly even now, feel that they were/are to be seen and not heard, so they just didn't/don't speak up.
Martie
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11 posted 12-01-2005 06:07 PM       View Profile for Martie   Email Martie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Martie's Home Page   View IP for Martie

I'm just shy
serenity blaze
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12 posted 12-01-2005 06:21 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

gleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Now this is a party!

and ladies, the silence is understandable -

women have burned at the stake for less.
Poet deVine
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13 posted 12-01-2005 10:08 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

How can you talk seriously to a man when his eyes are not on your face but on your bosom?
Mysteria
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14 posted 12-01-2005 11:13 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

I have a bosom?  I have to tell you - if I am talking to a man and his eyes drift anywhere below my chin I let him know where I think he keeps his brain   and that is the truth.  Oh and by the way, inot2B, you are one smart cookie!  
Alicat
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15 posted 12-02-2005 01:01 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Thank goodness for peripheral vision.
ice
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16 posted 12-02-2005 06:06 AM       View Profile for ice   Email ice   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ice

­You have started and interesting thread here, Karen.....thank you

There have been many female Philosophers in history, unfortunately
they have for the most part been subdued by sexist impulse passed down by generations of weak minded men...

Kristina Wasa (Queen of Sweden) (1626-1689) and Mary Wollstonecraft (1759-1797) are two of my favorites...
(neither, to my knowledge were purveyors of religious or pious thought, at least what they expounded is short on those subjects)

Karen
"Do you think there are fundamental differences in the roles of gender that predisposition men to be better at argument and philosophy?"

Not at all, to the contrary...Women seem to have the innate gift of strong intuition, which seems to me to be the foundation of most philosophical thought, considering this, I feel their predisposition sets them up better to speak of certain things, especially in the category of original thought..

Using sex as a weapon, it seems, has been used as a effective tool by women for centuries, perhaps because their men are not listening to their philosophies, and that is a sure way to get their attention...

I enjoyed the discourse on the subject.....    

inot2B
"I learned early in marriage not to withhold sex.  I get my way alot more by begging for more. "

You are a wise woman, and you are philosophical...your statement proves that you have thought deeply, isn't that what Philosophy is, an expression of deep thought?

Martie
"I'm just shy"
If you can write wonderful poetry (and you certainly do) then the "shy" thing must be eliminated as an excuse...it seems to me that poetry is a strong form of expressed philosophy..a personal view of the world though a poets eyes is amazing, when its fresh and new, and it opens up the readers mind in a most personal way if read seriously...by agreement or argument with the content of the poems words...

Poet deVine
"How can you talk seriously to a man when his eyes are not on your face but on your bosom? "
A good question..? Perhaps by not wearing low cut blouses at a meeting of minds?
Seriously, I understand the problem. Lord save me, I have been guilty of the sin...

Again, thank you, Karen...this is a good, mind expanding subject, lets keep it going....

-----------------ice
      ><>

­­
­
latearrival
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17 posted 12-02-2005 06:21 AM       View Profile for latearrival   Email latearrival   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for latearrival

Serenity,
I read in here a lot and have picked up some interesting discussions. But.. I hesitate to post.I find that women are called "opinionated" if they talk too much. We really live our lives our way and it should hopefully  show our philosophy on life. With you on this but staying mum.... martyjo  
LeeJ
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18 posted 12-02-2005 08:58 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

I gotta agree with Kacy, as well, I love philosophizing also, but usually no one wants to listen, especially woman, or I've been deemed "a know it all", when actually, I'm asking the question, "What do you think?" or please join in?

Also, I've gotta take advantage thanking Serenity very much, adding this Website is the very first that has allowed me express, (although afterwards, sometimes there were condiscending comments) but several confident woman in here have become good friends, b/c they agree or disagree but have a passion driven ability to discuss, share & allow.  I find that invigorating!  

Also, while I'm on the subject, I've had the same experience with some male poets in here as well, fewer then the women, but I'm thankful for those men, b/c they are intersted enough to allow others to vocalizes, share and learn.

There are many woman/men to, who if they don't like what you have to say, they shut you down?  Or come back with a very rude comment to shut you up?  Then ignore you forever or don't allow you in their click.   It used to hurt me deeply, back then, but now, I could care less, as I figure, those people are not open minded and would have nothing to offer to a friendship, and do not want to learn or stand back and give someone else their day in the sun...or are jealous and afraid when others suceed.

Also, in the past, I've known so many boys and men growing up, that are intimidated by a smart woman.

And so, it was learned behavior on my part...in order to fit in, I adopted a dead head so to speak, or later in life, was surpressed of my opinions/beliefs and contributions to conversation, saying "OHHHH Lee J. your so deep" that I learned to be quiet, shy and afraid to share.  I suppose that is one of the reasons for my poetry...it is the one place that I can go and express.

I also ditto Ice/Ford...and agree with him totally.

Regarding keeping sex from your man because your angry with him...or you don't get your way, is only going to come back and bite you right in the nose.
  
Kindness flourishes...and Serenity, I've gotta say, if only more of society would listen and be open minded, we might intellectually be further along.  
We should be, I think anyway.

Thank you for this Karen...yes, Lets keep going and share some insight....actually Karen, in answer to your question, I'm thinking that woman's sufferage has come a long long way, and there are certainly more open minded secure and confident men these days who find a woman's mind stimulating and I don't mean sexually.  I really wish men could understand and allow, and realize that a lot of woman are not turned on by just good looks, but by a kind and allowing mind.  To me, that is so beautiful.  

...but there are still those men who think the only thing that woman are here for is to give them plesaure and talk about sex...I guess because they don't know how to relate to a woman....I dunno?  Or perhaps that is the only way they feel good about themselves, but all talk with sexual connotations, to me is a turn off.  I want to know more...yanno?

There are also people who are afraid to learn/change...

Philosophy is a grand awakening, and boy oh boy, if nobody else wants to listen, nature will not only listen, but also respond, thru her storms, animals, stars, flowers, trees, etc.  hehe, now I know Ford understands that comment.

[This message has been edited by LeeJ (12-02-2005 12:51 PM).]

latearrival
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19 posted 12-02-2005 10:23 AM       View Profile for latearrival   Email latearrival   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for latearrival

Serenity: I also thank you for this lead. You have helped to open  up our mouths through our fingers at least.  
LeeJ:  I agree with you.   For too many years women were not listened to.  I bit my tongue for many years. I do not think I am well educated but I can use what mind I have and do a little thinking!  You are so much younger than me. So you can go from here. Anyone who reads you can see how intelligent you are. I read you and try learn from you. You are so far over my head that even when I try to answer I give up because I will sound stupid so I back out.  But I admire a woman with a sharp mind  and sharp wit and always read what you write at least twice. So get in here and shout out what you have to say. It stimulates my mind and helps to keep me sharper.  Best to you both, martyjo
  
serenity blaze
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20 posted 12-02-2005 10:35 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Smiling here--I have to set the record straight.

I do not use sex as a weapon.

Wait.

Let me re-phrase that.

(I happen to be retired, anyhow.)

But in the past, when my husband and I would have one of our many differences of opinion, would I have sex with him?

No, I would not.

Now, men call that withholding sex.

Women call that "I-am-pissed-at-you-and-if-it-weren't-for-the-kids-I-would-regret-ever-having-sex-with-you."

There is a term for having sex with someone you are angry with, and it doesn't belong in this particular forum.

I can start that topic in Grok though, since so many seem to have much to say on that subject.

I'm smiling, gratified that my original question was addressed too. I also thought you all might enjoy some background on one of my favorite early women philosophers:
http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Hypatia.html

Sadly enough, it was the potent combination of religion and philosophy that turned out to be the demise of Hypatia.

(and um, yes, I guess I just "outed" myself too, as I have taken that name for a couple of arguments here in the Philosophy Forum--er, with apologies to my friends here, but at the time Hypatia seemed like a good idea and more likely to be taken seriously)



I'll be back, though. And Ford? I always knew you weren't afraid of wimmen. *grin*

I gotta go get the storm troopers off to start their day now.

Ta for now!  

Sunshine
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21 posted 12-02-2005 10:37 AM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Ice commented,

quote:
Not at all, to the contrary...Women seem to have the innate gift of strong intuition, which seems to me to be the foundation of most philosophical thought, considering this, I feel their predisposition sets them up better to speak of certain things, especially in the category of original thought..
Emphasis added.

I know several men, I won't even say most, or all, but certainly several, who do not rely on any discussion where the topic of the discourse cannot be seen or touched in reality. War can be seen. Politics touch us. Vice versa.  Where men do come as close to having intuitive discourse is when it comes to Religion, something that can at times be seen, but in its true aspect, is nothing but a deep faith and belief - akin to intuition.

Yet, some men have been prone to feel the hairs on the nape of their neck raise up when encountering something outside of what can be seen or touched.

So when men like you, Ford, come into a conversation such as this, and allow that there is more to philosophy, well, that just makes me smile.

Martie?  I understand the shy.  I get going on a thought, want to sound intelligent, and someone comes and gives me the raspberries.  So I am prone to sitting back and reading, just to see where the thought processes are supposed to go, when it comes to philosophical discourse.

However, I do love it when serenity comes in and shakes the bag!

.
inot2B
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22 posted 12-02-2005 11:32 AM       View Profile for inot2B   Email inot2B   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for inot2B

I read your link on Hypatia, and I surmise the only reason she was allowed to come as far as she did is because of her fathers postiion. It was a time where women took a backseat to men.
It is women who have allowed this to happen.
Gender doesn't play a role in the ability to philosophize. It is the desire to stand up for what one believes in, be it male or female.
Personally, I don't say too much in here is because I feel foolish and fear people will read it and say, "Just like a woman".  Nobody has ever done that, it is just in my mind.
I can't even do this without worry, I've edited this twice to make it not look dumb. Oh well!

LeeJ
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23 posted 12-02-2005 11:58 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Martyjo, don't ever allow anyone to intimidate you or make you fear expression...or think that you would sound really dumb.  No one can make you feel anyway but you...those who try would not be true friends anyway...so actually, Your better off without them.  Always remember, YOU get to choose your friends, they don't choose you!  And sometimes not being a follower can be a lonely walk, but at least you have the dignity in knowing you won't compromise your identity.
  
Martyjo, I have only a high school education with a few added courses.

Intellectual, far from it, I'm not being humble or looking for a pat on the back...it is only from experience, feelings and love that I write, as do many others....it is who I am and of that I'm very comfortable with.

I have shouted out what I'v had to say, and at times, in here have been condescended...but in most cases, others shared with me, or gave me links to study, or encouraged me, I embrace those people and gravitate towards them, by the way, many thanks to you who have, you know who you are.     

I'm hungry for knowledge, and when I add to forums, what I say is not written in stone, I'm certainly not perfect, as no one is...and  don't believe one is smarter then the next, and anyone that feels that way, is closing a door to the ability to learn and go further.  

We are here to enhance each others journey and help each other along the way, even if they are younger then our own thoughts.

It isn't about intellect, it is about opening the door to options, giving others and yourself consideration of expression, which opens a wide range of other perceptions, answers & truths...

I don't believe all our questions will be answered, and don't believe there is one answer to every question. But this I do know, no one in the world is so smart they know everything.

And so, dear MartyJo...intellegent, no...in the mornings when I write, I do open my mind to a vastness that cannot be explained in words.  

All I can say is, it's like being in a trance...which some other poets have been confident enough to admit the same.

It is a vast spiritual world I speak of, connnecting all and everything, giving us the ability to perhaps mind travel crossing over dimensions...trancedental meditation, astro projection?  Whatever it is, it's real and a very nice way to travel...there are no security guards taking away my nail file and grooming kit....


If you spoke with me in person, you would never know it was me, b/c I cannot articulate myself on a one on one basis nearly as well as when I write.

I stammer, and grasp for words to describe what I'm trying to say, and that's the God's truth.  I'm not ashamed or proud, just stating a fact.

Serenity, I do not believe that there are  fundamental differences between the intellect or the ability to be a philosoper between the genders...I believe there are aware, mature, confident & kind people from both genders who do possess the ability to allow others their time in the sun...then there are bigots who are so filled with hate, fear and a great lack of confidence in themselves.  It is the bigot or the extreme left or right that frightens me the most.  That to me, is the same mindset that killed the jews, or brings innocents to war.  There should be no wars...in this world...the human race should be much further along.  Much much further along.  
serenity blaze
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24 posted 12-02-2005 02:23 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Okay...

let me try to digest what we have here so far...

Do we all agree that women are as capable philosophers as men?

If we do, then why is it a male dominated territory?

I, myself, am guilty of referring to previous discussions here as "pissing contests", and tsk to me, because that is just as gender biased a statement as referring to a woman who speaks her mind with confidence as a "bitch". (Although, LeeJ, you but it much nicer with "know-it-all".   I've been called both. I've been called stupid too.)

Now, do you suppose the reluctance of women to debate/philosophize might be the result of a lasting cultural imprint upon the psyches of women? Do women willingly take a backseat to men regarding "intellectual" pursuits because we were raised to be "nice girls" and thus suffer from what has been termed a "disease to please"? Are women really more intuitive than men? Or perhaps we are simply perceived to be more intuitive because we are trained to anticipate need?

Don't ask me what I think, because frankly, I haven't yet made up my mind. Even if I had, is it a woman's perogative to change her mind?  

And ladies, don't be afraid of the soapbox. That's what this is about, afterall.  


 
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