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Martie
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25 posted 12-02-2005 02:37 PM       View Profile for Martie   Email Martie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Martie's Home Page   View IP for Martie

Part of why I don't get on the soapbox has to do with my older brother.  When I was young, he was quick to call anything I said, "stupid".  Another fovorite line of his was, "if you had a brain you'd be dangerous".  Of course he said these things where only I could here, and not our parents.  I've called him on it recently, and he doesn't remember.  I believe him that he doesn't.  He only remembers that I was a "brat".  I hope I was at least, that! LOL
serenity blaze
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26 posted 12-02-2005 02:42 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

*laughing*

My brother used to ask me:

"How can somebody so smart be so stupid?"

I was wondering the same.

But oh-I-miss-that-man dearly.

We had some lovely jousts.
LeeJ
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27 posted 12-02-2005 02:45 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Now, do you suppose the reluctance of women to debate/philosophize might be the result of a lasting cultural imprint upon the psyches of women? Do women willingly take a backseat to men regarding "intellectual" pursuits because we were raised to be "nice girls" and thus suffer from what has been termed a "disease to please"? Are women really more intuitive than men? Or perhaps we are simply perceived to be more intuitive because we are trained to anticipate need?

I cannot speak for others but for myself and my own experiences, Yes, Karen, I believe some women, unknowingly take a backseat, although working within the corporate world, I do see expression from woman more so, then from a woman who is a housekeeper, mother, wife.  

But, yes, Karen...that's what I was trying to reinterate what I did up until about 3 years ago after a long time male friend said to me, "Lee J. I've known you since 7th grade, and playing stupid has become a part of you and your not"  Well, let me tell you, he opened a great door for me to self explore and I began to realize it was indeed true, for many many years.

Now I love a good debate, and am a very emotional speaker, but will not tolerate being put down, or made to feel I don't fit in.  My philosophy is this, two people can not always agree, and you cannot "Make" people like you...so, I wish them well, telling them silently, go forward and flourish, we are not a good match is all.  And that goes for women as well as men.  

Ohhhh I so love these talks.
LeeJ
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28 posted 12-02-2005 02:50 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Martie, brat or not, lets say you challenged him...yes?  
serenity blaze
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29 posted 12-02-2005 02:55 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Is hugging allowed in this forum?

grin

Love ya Lee...

and do you have any idea how long it took for me to learn how to say "no"?

wince

shaking my head

Don't even venture a guess...and yanno?

I thought about that "bitch" tag awhile too.

And gee.

Ow.

that really hurts when I am called that...

Women do philosophize. We just do it different.
LeeJ
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30 posted 12-02-2005 03:19 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

actually, that name becomes me....hehe
it's called a mood with a tude...
have a great weekend
serenity blaze
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31 posted 12-02-2005 03:32 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I really must market "Bitch" tiaras...

grinning

and yes, you too, Lee.

and thank you, for sharing your thoughts with a wandering wondering me.
Martie
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32 posted 12-02-2005 03:35 PM       View Profile for Martie   Email Martie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Martie's Home Page   View IP for Martie

If someone called me a bitch, I would feel like I'd been given a compliment.  Yes, I was brought up to be a "nice" girl.  But sometimes I just want to break those bonds and shout...I am me!!!  And I want to talk back to my elders....oh yes!  When ever I said something that took me out of the place my parents put me in, my mother would say, "that doesn't sound like you".  Grrrrrrr!  
Martie
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33 posted 12-02-2005 03:37 PM       View Profile for Martie   Email Martie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Martie's Home Page   View IP for Martie

One more thing....ah hum...in discussions, I could usually see from every point of view.  It always made it difficult for me to take a stand on one thing.  
serenity blaze
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34 posted 12-02-2005 03:45 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I'm nodding, 'cause I do that too.

Sometimes I come in here and read the archives, and I swear, when it's good, it's like watching a tennis match. grinning

I think, "he's got a point" there

and then I can be just as easily persuaded back again.

But that's where the true fun begins.

That's when I have to really think about what I actually believe.

That's when self-discovery begins.

And that's why I came here, and that's why I think it important for others to be here too.

Larry C
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35 posted 12-02-2005 05:49 PM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

It seems I'm better off to just observe. But you know me... As I have watched the threads in this forum (and I read many of them) it seems that most people speak as if they are the final authority. I don't find much tolerance for intolerance so mostly I stay quiet. When I fail to maintain silence it usually is to smart off in an effort to lighten things up in here. And in that case I've never been ignored more effectively.

But I gotta say, this is my favorite thread in here. Occupied by a bunch of my favorite people. So with much respect and admiration I will continue to observe this thread. And as long as hugs are being passed around...
Midnitesun
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36 posted 12-02-2005 06:31 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

hugging brave Larry
not too many besides you, ice, and alicat dare venture in here wehn all of us are
bitchin
and I remember when 'bitchin' was a positive comment LOL, as in...isn't she bitchin? LOL, but I've gotta say
this IS the most fun I've ever had in THIS forum
but what do I know? I worke a 10-12 hour gravewyard shift and haven't slept but three winks today cuz my neighbors have a new puppy that's been whining his ass off all day!
sigh...I do love philosophy though, it was one of my favorite subjects n college
alongside...of all things...physics
and I got B's and A's in both
though nearly failed all my advanced MATH course
folks? be patient with me please? the 'higher power(s)' isn''t through programming me yet!
latearrival
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37 posted 12-02-2005 07:40 PM       View Profile for latearrival   Email latearrival   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for latearrival

LeeJ, I agree with everything you told me. I often use the same words to encourage others.  And even reprimand myself for not talking to myself as I do to others. I am bad about putting myself down.  It had to come from somewhere.  I guess I was told once  "you think your smart don't you"  so I took to negating my own thoughts before someone did it for me.  Something like making "fat jokes" and laughing at yourself before others do it. I have told people not to give their power away to someone else. That we control our feelings and cannot be hurt if we do not allow others the power to hurt us.  So I am not hurt if someone disagrees with me because as you said, we are all entitled  to our opinions and  three people can be right and not agree with the others. I guess it is how the person disagrees. If they are just putting me down I have learned that is their problem. To make themselves feel good they have to down another. If they disagree in a debating manner that is great because I am open to learning. Some times there is no right or wrong, just someone's opinion.

If  I could remember half of what I have read over the years I would be smart.  But I do not retain  things as well as I wish I could.  "Smart"  is hard to define.  Both my younger brother and I had to follow my older brother. He was handsome, outgoing, intelligent, creative, the high school football captain and the president of his class. He was also a good artist and got good grades without studying. I followed him three years later and the  art teacher still had his photo on her desk!  She was not too interested in me and once accused me of having someone else draw a  picture I handed in.  I took offense and must have said something because she demanded I apologize. I would not do it as I felt she was the one  should apologize to me for  insinuating I was a liar and a cheat and if I was anything I was neither of those. I have been in awe of him for many years. Lately I have come to see him as just a person and not especially half  what I had projected for him. In other words he is just a regular guy.

I had a girlfriend in school who was in the lowest grade in junior high school. I was in the top grade. That was because I read a lot and through me she also started to read.  Once I was at her house and she was doing the NY crossword puzzle. She was so good at it, I said, "Jan, you always thought I was so smart. I could never do a cross word puzzle like you can". So as I got older I  began to think the schools did a lot to hurt people. You know if you are in the "blue bird"  reading group and  others are in the "Red bird" group you soon know who is smarter.  It doesn't matter  how they divide you, the kids all know sooner or later and identify themselves by the group  they are assigned to.  If you are in 7A and the other is in 7F you soon learn the difference and you pin the label on yourself as they defined you. I sometimes think the one room schoolhouse was better. They were more or less allowed to move up at their own speed and had the older ones helping the younger. There is too much separation by someone's idea of  what and how much "they" think you can learn. How many boys were told they should go to a Trade School when later they found out they not only went to trade school but became the president of the company after they got out of school and went to work as a trades man.  We are too often weeded out and separated by what someone else thinks we can or cannot do.  I have always hated the idea of a student's records following them to the next grade with all the remarks from the former teacher. If the next grade teacher did not read those reports or listen to the previous teacher until at least half way through the school year, or not at all because by then she would  have seen the student for what she saw,  the student would have a better chance. I do not even like the idea that teachers know the student's background or father's occupation. It causes discrimination right from the beginning of that grade. Sometimes it can be a personality factor that causes one kid to be put down  by a teacher. I could go on and on. Having put six kids through school and adding  my own experiences I fully believe this. They say the more a teacher knows about a family and the background the better to help them. But to be truthful all teachers are not so skilled and they are human too so they can make a lot of wrong calls.  Better step-down off this box now and give someone else a chance. Thanks for the ear.Thank you for validating me. Martyjo
latearrival
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38 posted 12-02-2005 07:49 PM       View Profile for latearrival   Email latearrival   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for latearrival

Midnightsun, when I was in high school the physics teacher had a class of girls..I was unfortunate enough to have been one of them.  He used to put an assignment on the board and take off. He said, "girls can not learn physics ". So I believed him. One or two of the girls did the work  and the rest of us sat there or read a  book.  He should have been reported but what did we as a bunch of naive girls know about reporting a teacher? martyjo
kayjay
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39 posted 12-02-2005 09:12 PM       View Profile for kayjay   Email kayjay   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kayjay

I've a couple thoughts on this topic, but first I'd like to address the way that kids are classified and thereby treated in the K - 12 system.  Somewhere in my reading, I found a study of the following situation.  A teacher received the files of a new class.  However, the quick ones were labeled slower and the slow ones were labeled quicker, but the teacher did not know this.  (I submit that we all have different learning rates and family environment as youngsters has a great impact.)  Well, in this paper, the author reported that the "slow" students suddenly did much better, and the "quick" students did worse.  I wish I could recall the entire story and the source; I can't.
My conclusion is that how we feel we are perceived is of tremendous import in forming out own sense of being able to learn.
Well, I meandered a bit, but let me come back to the thread.  I think, historically, that women were simply not taught to read, but those with some means were taught household management skills.  Some women overcame that, but in the main, it was a means of subjugation.  
To me, philosophy is a "search for a general understanding of values and reality by chiefly speculative rather than observational means." (Merriam-Webster)
So, to debate in speculation what is right or best about a specific idea is, to me, the truest sense of that definition.  
We hope to discuss whether adopting certain ideas and viewpoints leads us to be wiser and more in tune with our place in the world.
My vote would be that women can discourse more intelligently because they are able to exchange viewpoints, but men tend to want to win the argument.  
However, as women have not been allowed to express themselves, there is no tradition of women philosophers, hence not that much literature.  
Thoughts?  Ken

Through rubble and trouble and dark of night
The yawn of a dawn will hasten the light
Mysteria
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40 posted 12-02-2005 10:04 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

quote:
Serenity said, "Okay...
let me try to digest what we have here so far...
Do we all agree that women are as capable philosophers as men?
If we do, then why is it a male dominated territory?

Um Karen, men don't go shopping as much as we do, and trust me I use my wonderfully philosophical mind out there fighting those hoards of people in stores better than any darn man ever could. Actually was thinking of a new name for myself,  "Shoposopher Sharon."  

Some of my favorite feminists were pretty darn good philosophers, dating back as far as 17th century, a woman by the name of Antoinette Bourignion, who fled her home to avoid an arranged marriage.  Atta girl Antoinette!

You may be familiar with this gal too from around the 17th century, Jeanne Marie Bouvier de la Motte Guyon.  At first, she was the most militant expressionist of a doctrine of Quietism.  That being a sort of passive meditation of all that is devine, while withdrawing from all worldly concerns, and thereby suppressing the will.  She ticked off the Archbishop with her great philosophy.  However, sadly just like a woman, she died in Paris saying she was a devout Catholic, go figure!  She caved!

Oh...but to answer your original question - women feel, men think.
Larry C
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41 posted 12-02-2005 11:01 PM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

And I know what I felt!
icebox
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42 posted 12-03-2005 01:02 AM       View Profile for icebox   Email icebox   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for icebox

"Do you think there are fundamental differences in the roles of gender that predisposition men to be better at argument and philosophy?"


Is this a real question...or simply a thought  in the mind of the goddess?
Sunshine
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43 posted 12-03-2005 06:54 AM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Actually, icebox, I think it's a good question that has rested in several of the responding women's minds for a long time.

Of all of the times serenity might be teasing us, I've never seen her tease [much] under the Philosophy flag.

She, like many others, comes in here to learn.  Several have said it's like a tennis match; a man's game of "war" and having an ultimate victor.  I have to agree with that.  

I would also suggest that the first definition that is found in my 1953 dictionary, Webster's New World Dictionary, College Edition, is probably right on target for women:  "1. originally, love of wisdom or knowledge."  I also like this: "4.a) a particular system of principles for the conduct of life."

I have more thoughts, but I've also got to do some laundry.

.
icebox
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44 posted 12-03-2005 09:32 AM       View Profile for icebox   Email icebox   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for icebox

"I have more thoughts, but I've also got to do some laundry"


Of course.  

I do not believe it is a modern issue that most women's lives are made up of virtually endless, mostly mindless, details.  It is only my personal belief that life is more easily lived as a male; it is more entertaining, offers more options, provides access to more freedoms, has fewer limitations.  A male life well lived can provide an endless supply of women to meet an equally endless supply of purposes, including providing the freedom to sit and philosophize.  Archeology and its younger sister Anthropology rediscover that reality on a regular basis.  Organized academic Philosophy is, and continues to be, the product of access to the luxury of free time and free intellectual space.

It is no secret that there are gender differences that can be defined as typical in the structure and wiring of human brains.  These differences without question influence how perception and thought are processed, but just as all roads may lead to Rome, all thoughts no matter what their origin may lead to the ultimate understanding of existence; the paths taken simply may be different.

Grandiose speculative thoughts, insights into human existence, the flashes of observational understanding, etc., that have fed the beast of Philosophy throughout time, may run as easily through a female’s neural network as a male’s.  The differences seem situational.

I have often thought Occam’s Razor was a gift from his mama, but he had the time to write it down.  My guess is that she might have said to him something like, “Don’t deny the obvious child!  It’s getting dark! Get in here and wash your hands, then sit down and eat your dinner before it gets cold!” as he dawdled in daydreams of angels dancing on pinheads in spotlights filtered through the deceptions of a late afternoon’s deepening orange  sunbeams while his mama prepared the household for night.  Much later in life, maybe while the next Mrs. Occam darned his socks to keep the hapless philosopher’s feet warm,  he would drag up out of the jumble of thought and memory:
"Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate"
"Frustra fit per plura quod potest fieri per pauciora"

"Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily."
"When you have two competing theories which make exactly the same predictions, the one that is simpler is the better."

Or, in perhaps the cleanest version of Occam’s Razor, "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."

My own favorite version though always has been, “Don’t deny the obvious child.”

Aristotle was able to observe that “Nature is opportunistic” simply because he had the opportunity to connect the dots and the time and resources to write down the thought.  A woman with a laundry basket on one hip, a baby on the other and pasta boiling on the stove is not likely to write on the laundry room wall an epistemological epigram, no matter how brilliant.  She might understand the thought and even accurately value its brilliance, but by the time she has cleaned up the boiled over pasta and quieted the baby, she has to feed the family, sort the laundry and not take time to jot down notes.

Formal philosophy, and all that has flowed from it right down to the palest academies of today, is the luxury by product of a leisure class.  Even within the leisure classes of history, women have been kept more busy.  For example, the planning of an aristocratic wedding, no matter how politically practical the union might be, could take a decade; the needlepoint work alone could take years.  There may have been time for the women of the court to sew angels into the tapestry borders but no time to speculate on how many could dance on the head of a pin.  While all that was going on, the male principal player was learning to hunt, fish, fight, plan military slaughter, drink, carouse, gamble, dance, plot and contemplate; though not always encouraged to do so, he has had the time to write down his contemplations and he has spent almost all his youth in the company of other males.

Testosterone is many things.  It is an hallucinogenic drug, an irritant disrupting sleep, a catalyst that produces explosive outbursts of violent behavior and of argumentative thought; it accelerates linear thought and triggers quantum brain processes, encourages narrowness of focus, distorts time perception, drives the user to pursue ecstatic experiences, and it produces amnesia.  It leads the user to be convinced of the ultimate brilliance of his insights and thoughts.  It promotes the belief that his thoughts are so brilliant they must be shared with others.  It is a mental steroid that fuels philosophical thinking.  “This is the brain; this is the brain on testosterone.”  

Now having shared all that, I think I am going to see if one of the house pets has done the laundry and, more importantly, has made my coffee.

*WINK*

Sunshine
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45 posted 12-03-2005 10:18 AM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

And there lies only one of the possible answers to the question at hand.  

Did the pets prepare the coffee just right?

Smiling at you.

For all of the laundry, children, and spoiled boiled pasta...there is still more to the answer, I believe.  

And it is well entertwined with all you stated, Sir.

I was going to write of my belief that in order to make all things simpler...women have given in to the ego of man, just to keep peace in the household, the office, in all avenues where men and women have to co-exist. Look back into history where women of various cultures did everything BUT go to war.  And then look to the cultures where indeed, women DID take on the many wars that beset their tribes or families.

That is but one aspect.

Is it because people prefer to listen to a educated, deeper, pondering voice put forth ideas and thoughts that had rested like a gold nugget back in their own minds...and as you say, women just had their hands too full of responsibilities of all sorts and could not take the time to write it down?  Let alone make it heard over the crying babes to a man or men who were "too tired" to listen to the golden nuggeted ramblings of a mere woman?



I'll be back.  I have to go pick up my husband's mother...because he just got up!

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46 posted 12-03-2005 10:43 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Karen shuffles in, hair still not combed, spilling her coffee as she cough/laughs.

"I am very pleased to see you have wakened, sire. Pray tell, was thine sleep as sweet as mine?" *battin eyelashes*

Um, yeah, right.



But icebox, you proprose a very good question there. Am I serious? The answer to that one is in the face of Janus--I am always serious, even when I'm joking. And vice versa.

I would have been here sooner, but I had to make a list of "things to do" for my flying monkey, who has now flown off to work painting somebody's mansion in Old Metairie. I like to keep my flying monkey encouraged, so I informed him that he will be working in the area in which Jimmy Page happens to keep his pets caged. My monkey only hesitated to gather some Led Zepplin cds's--just in case, and now he is a happy flying monkey too...

But my first question was a bit of a tease. A formality to get the conversational ball rolling. I much prefer a conversation to a debate.

Debates beg for a winner.

Conversations are more of an exploration.

Like you, I find the most interest in the things between the lines of such conversation. It's not a "trick"--it's just that I know that much of my supposed natural women's intuition is actually analyzation.

I could argue, as many have, that women are more in tune with nature because of their biological make up--monthly cycles that tune into the lunar calendar which dictate gravitional pull and the rise and fall of tides here on our now-weary mother planet.

I could argue that in one breath, but I'll be laughing, because the woman who is typing this is one who is still caught off guard by her own menses every month. Or every two weeks. Or every other month. (It depends.)

Oh dear...now I'm laughing again.

But anyhow, I'm so pleased you are here, because one of the many questions I have asked I would like to address to you, my sweet friend.

Do you think women are more naturally intuitive than men?

and grinning, even as I typed that, I thought I should check my Inbox, because you may well have already answered that.

Ron
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47 posted 12-03-2005 01:22 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Formal philosophy, and all that has flowed from it right down to the palest academies of today, is the luxury by product of a leisure class.

Yes, but only to the extent someone doesn't need to spend 15 hours a day hunting and gathering. Once survival needs are met, everything is a luxury.

If a woman is washing laundry, it's because she chose to wash laundry. For whatever reason, clean clothes took priority over something else she might have chosen to do. Gender isn't going to suddenly eliminate the need for those choices, though it well may change which choice is made. I have laundry to do, too, as well cooking dinner, washing dishes, and cleaning the house. They're just not real high on my list of priorities.

Clean house? Soon . . .
kayjay
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48 posted 12-03-2005 02:20 PM       View Profile for kayjay   Email kayjay   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kayjay

Well, I'd like to chime in with a comment on intuition/sensitivity.  I do think that women are more concerned with sensitive issues than men.  
I love the story of the woman who has been dating a man for a while and wants to know how he feels, so she says "Gee, we've been going out for some months now."  He frowns.  She thinks "Gee, he thinks I'm pushing him.  Why can't I keep my big mouth shut?"  But she continues "I've really enjoyed myself."  His frown deepens and his jaw sort of tightens.  She withdraws, but when he drops her off, they hug and kiss a bit and she feels better.  
Meanwhile, the man is thinking..."Yes, I just got this car before we started dating...I oughta get the oil changed.  Wait.  (deeper frown) Is that a new noise? The tranny better not be going out.  (Jaw clenches) Man, that'll be 1500 at least."
He too, is satisfied with the happy with the mild necking at the end of the evening.
When she walks in the door, she gets on a conference call with 4 girl friends to discuss his facial expressions.  
Meanwhile, he pops a beer and turns on an NBA game he's taped.  He has no idea what just happened.  Ken

Through rubble and trouble and dark of night
The yawn of a dawn will hasten the light

Martie
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49 posted 12-03-2005 05:38 PM       View Profile for Martie   Email Martie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Martie's Home Page   View IP for Martie

"Do you think there are fundamental differences in the roles of gender that predisposition men to be better at argument and philosophy?"

I wonder if men were discussing pphilosophy while in the parlor with their smokes and drinks.  Or is it a romanticized notion derived from romance novels.  Maybe it was the woman who were left to their own devices, that talked of philosophy while busying themselves with clearing the table...or oops, didn't they have servants that did that?

and Ron?  Back then when choices were first made about who would be responsible for what....I wonder if men and woman didn't just naturally fall into the roles that seems to still play out in todays world.  Certainly, the edges have blurred much.  You must do all,  because you choose not to partner up right now.  Men, having bodies that are stronger and can more easily bag the dinner, and women then, in desire to be creative and to give birth to more than just children, grew and harvested gardens.  Men had easier access to education....and because of that, they became more knowledgeable in math and science.

Woman showed much strength when they overcame the stigma that men gave them, that they were only good for one thing.  And, woman are still growing. I don't think it was as easy as choosing to wash laundry.  Woman were raised to expect to play that role.  And, it wasn't just men that put them there, it was there mothers and grandmothers who believed it to be worthwhile, for woman to sew and clean, and to take care of raising the children, especially the female children.  

Ken?  Maybe men really are from Mars and woman from Venus.  They certainly are different and that's a good thing, I think.  It has much to do with hormones, although we also share hormones.  I'm happy that I have a bit of testosterone in me and I like men who aren't afraid to show their feminine side.

Ok...I got to get back to cleaning the house....big family gathering tonight for my father-in-law's 80'th birthday.    
 
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