thanks for taking the time to communicate your thoughts
Good rule of thumb, generally speaking. But I don't agree with the "no matter what you read" part. It rules out the possibility of Divine inspiration before we even get started. It just stands to reason that anything really divinely inspired would not be merely an opinion.
Stephanoes, respectfully I've had some very spiritual things happen to me...both awake and in dreams...divine inspiration?...I think so, but what if I wrote it down it would be divinely accepted and the word of God? or an opinion from my own personal experience?
But you almost believe so, as dogma. As if there just has to be something wrong with it, since it was written by men. That's different than taking particulars, and pointing out what you think is wrong, and why you think so.
I don't agree...b/c for every particular I feel is wrong, someone would say different...backing it up with Scripture...and opinion, due to their conditioning of their religion, personal experinces, since the time they were young.
I see that happen in every forum here, how people take quotes from others who written books or articles and deem it "the absolute truth"
challenging with anger & feeling insulted, someone doesn't believe as they do...doesn't say, I'm right and they're wrong, or visa versa. What it is, is personal opinion of the individual.
A great amount of faith in which particular God? Buddhists don't believe in a God. Neither do atheists and agnostics. Hindus believe in about 6 million gods, I think. And which "day" we come face to face with him? Remember that it is a particular, peculiar Judeo-Christian belief that there will be such a day of reckoning. If all writings and revelations are subject to being "opinions", why do you hold your own particular view of eschatology (end-time events) in a different category ... as the very thing which will surely clear up all the other controversies? I'm not trying to shake your faith in what you believe, I'm just trying to show that your attitude about certain things is not quite consistent with the assertion that all is doubtful.
I see your point and understand...and a very good question, I can't answer that Stepanoes, wish I could...except to say, I believe in no religion inparticular. What I can say, is when I look at nature, and the vital importance of all things, how we're all so connected, the human body, nature, the exact revolutions of each planet, the power of the mind, or the body's ability to heal, the miracle of birth, space & planets, & beyond to other solar systems...the emensity of the universe, the miraculous dimensions, the power of love...molecular science...my gosh, how can one not believe there is something very wise and powerful...not to mention the gifted ones, like Einstein, or an idot sevance...and the light I've seen from a metally retarted child....pure unaldulterated love, their actual glow and pure acceptance...and so on...
But the scriptures (especially the Gospels) weren't first revealed to "Kings" but to common Jews, fishermen, tax-collectors. They were not of the crowd you would typically suspect of being politically motivated, corrupted by power, etc... In fact, it was the more powerful, who were (for whatever reason) not as able to assimilate and understand Jesus' message and mission.
well, you may be right, but I don't believe God in all his divine power made women to be beneath men, to be withheld from the scriptures, to be looked upon as a slave with no mind, other then to conceive children...I really don't believe God had that in mind...
and if Adam and Eve were a true story, then who came first, prehistoric animals or prehistoric man
where was the garden of Eden? Why have we never found the arc? Why so many religions with altogether different beliefs, languages, and how did some from the muslim religion actually come to believe that killing people is what God wants?...and the Jewish religion...Jesus was Jewish, and yet, they do not even acknowlege that he was the son of God and so many people actually tried to stop the Mel Gipson film...out of sheer fear?
I dunno, there are so so many questions but what I've seen is that fear governs people...fear of venturing beyond their beliefs...fear of allowing others theirs?
Yes, I know of many many books, and thank you for the refrences you've also suggested, but again...upon reading those books I can't help but think, how does he/she really know...how can one actually believe "their" faith are the absolute words from God? It is stricly opinion...and every religion in itself is very political.
But many don't realize that the claims of such things like "The Davinci Code" are not new. In fact, it gets the main thrust of it's view from writings known as Pseudepigraphal works, which represent a certain gnostic "conditioning" of their own. This anti-orthodox movement also has political overtones, much moreso I think than the personalities surrouding the orthodox view. But if we suspect dishonesty, or cover-ups, it would pay us to study and see if there's any weight to the evidence, either way. I have found that the gnostic gospels are easily discredited, as they also were in the early church. It would surprise many too, that the adherents of orthodoxy rejected these pseudepigraphal works, not arbitrarily out of some rabid thirst for control and power, but for very good reasons. One reason was that their authorship is/ was dubious. Their time of writing was not as claimed, but far later than the actual time of Jesus. They were proven to be forgeries. Much of this can be checked with reasonable scholarly support today.
Again, you may be right, but how can one look at the last supper (by the way, much of the information regarding DiVinci and his art, I learned while taking art classes many years ago) and dispute, that there was in fact a woman sitting beside Jesus, why, how dare that even be considered? Maybe it was DiVinci's way of pulling a fast one, but...we all know, that amoung the many early great artists, there were secret codes depicted in their paintings, b/c they were afraid to be banned from society due to their beliefs...
There are many things left to question...and it isn't Satin making me question the Bible, as I love God and His Son very much! But I don't believe in my heart, they would surpress women from even an important job like being a deciple? Man is a whole derived from two halfs, one could not be without the other.
Jesus was a man and why would God not grant him the spiritual gift of knowing physical love? so so many of the old time fundamentalists feel that Jesus was celebate. Why, b/c apparently in their own minds Jesus would never stoop that low? Which in my mind tells me, these people actually believe physical love is something very wrong...well it's not!
To me, making love, is the only thing we have to give of ourselves to another, which is a precious and miraculous gift, and not be shared with just anyone.
I don't believe God would not want Jesus to know of this and forbid him a mate, otherwise, how could Jesus speak of an all powerful love which is all things...giving, joy, disappointments, mistakes,....remember, God made men & women, made a mate b/c he didn't want Adam to be alone?
But, fair warning ... when you use scholarship as a defense, someone can always bring scholarship itself into question, by saying that a crooked church so overwhelmed the world of scholarship, that they destroyed all real evidence, and covered their tracks eternally (a divine feat in itself, if you ask me). But now were getting into the conspiracy theory tendency, which can NEVER be falsified, because the evidence against it also comes from the hands of conspirators.
____________________________________________________The conspiracy theories, well, simply put, there may be something to them...how else to control man?
Remember the days when a woman wasn't allow to read the word of God? Or how bout the time, when only the priests had access to the Bible?
Stephano, scholarships mean nothing to me, I've seen how scholarships take behavior and give it a label to difine the problem, or excuse it, and medicate the patient, which is not healing, but a temporary fix.
Quite frankly, I don't care who you are (not meaning you inparticular):supergrinn: or where you came from...or what college you've graduated from...what I care about is how you treat me now, regardless of my beliefs...or how insulted one becomes b/c I express my opinion...as long as I express respectfully, thoughtfully, with great allowance.
What I care about is when I see people who do believe in the Lord by their religion only
make comments like, "You've got to be saved to go to heaven" or "you've got to hang around with people of our faith" or hear a woman speak the words, "If a person of another color joined our church, I'd leave" how utterly narrow minded...
and on, and on, and believe me, I've studied several religions...and seen my share of snotty beliefs....looking down on others b/c they don't go to the same church...the money mongers of the churches ramming their beliefs down the throats of others b/c they tithe more then most.
No sir, from the beginning of the time I was confirmed, I started asking questions, and was silenced or scolded b/c they didn't have answers...
so I church hopped for the rest of my life, up until a few years ago...been to all types of religions/churches, bible study, even was a Sunday School Teacher, but I just can't go along with all the contradictions of man made rules, which exist in each and every religion. Gosh, how shallow it is to actually believe it is right to say, you cannot partake in communion, unless you confess your sins to a man of the cloth...those sins are between you and God, and saying 5 hail mary's will not get you forgiveness, but people actually believe it does? And those are just a few examples..and please, I don't mean any attack here on any religion, simply talking from my experience.
It just doesn't work for me?
Yes, I do believe in a supreme being..and there is much to the many books I've read, and probably some very impressive answers in the books you've also suggested....butcha know, like I said, when ever my time comes to go, I do so hope I get to meet God...but Stephanoes, I don't know if there will be an end, or when, and yes, I do sway back and forth to my childhood conditioning, perhaps man, in all his greed and desire for power will destroy himself...but my faith, is a very privot thing, between God and myself and I don't have to explain it, or try to impress anyone with gigantic words or reciting scriptures(and please believe, I'm not thowing stones at you, honest)
God knows my needs, the one thing, I would like to believe is that Jesus's seed might very well be walking this earth...it's not a impossiblity.
Who knows about the myths, if there is life on other planets...what if another civilization exists and came here as our watchers...there are pictures of space men in caves...yanno? J
Our government hides things from us, do you actually believe there weren't power hungry leaders back then who decided that man needed a set of rules to guide them, so they wrote down stories which they truely believed.
My feelings Stephanoes are not trivial, due to what I believe about God...I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, I just don't know...and there are a lot of answers we will never know...about everyday life and relationships. People do not react for one reason, but for many...
Man is so desprate for love, answers, to believe in something...searching for some divine wisdom...looking for something to believe in, someone to believe in...(perhaps thats why relationships today don't do well)
They desire to believe in something beyond they're comprehension...so few people believe in themselves, so much so, that they don't have to debate, but more so allow, and realize, everyone has their own time and place and purpose to learn...
or those that exclude people from their circles or even society, b/c you believe something different from them, who in God's name is to say society is right?
If people really believed in God, I don't think our world would be in the situation it is today, and what society shuns the poor and hungry?
What society constantly labels law breakers and murderes to excuse their actions...what society thinks that laws do not apply to them..., what about clicks, in school and the common everyday workplace...the absolute mean ness in gossip...what about our laws, being broken down for the sake of greed? What about society throwing a person in the street if they don't go along with the crowd...it's been going on since the beginning of time.
People say, oh, it's getting worse, and it surely is, there are more people...and we are privy now to more information...but do you ever wonder why we're not much further along? Both physically and mentally? I mean, look at the amount of our brains that we use...? I wonder sometime about the conspiracy to keep people under educated and mis informed?
Has anyone got a clue out there about what is really going on...and these people go to church every weekend? And truly believe their concept is the absolute truth? It's amazing...and the words of the Bible have been bent to suit each own.
and so I end this by saying...
thank you for sharing and allowing me to share...
but I don't buy religion, nor the words of the Bible to be absolute.
Look at the fear in those priests and people who debated the DiVinci code...if they really believed in God and loved God, they'd allow, but inevidably they had to prove that concept wrong, b/c they are afraid to say to themselves, hmmm, maybe all these years we've been lied to, just maybe? And what makes me believe we have is the fact, just take a look at all religions, each one feels like theirs is the absolute, and yet, there are man made rules within that they really do believe are words of the Bible?
[This message has been edited by LeeJ (08-17-2005 03:31 PM).]