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Philosophy 101
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Distance and Enchantment
| Philosophy 101 |
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Distance and Enchantment |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan 
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Had he been born two thousand years ago would Tom Cruise be Paul? What would Buddha, Christ, or Mohamed be in the twenty-first century? |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Paul was a genius and first rate philosopher and rhetorist. Tom Cruise gets paid to pretend to be other people. I think Tom Cruise is more like a Yehohanan ben Hagkol. As for who is today's Buddha or today's Jesus (if we assume, I think incorrectly, that the latter was merely human), I don't think it is possible to speculate with any real precision. When Jesus and Siddhartha died, they were both relatively obscure players in their respective worlds. Perhaps in two hundred years we could identify such a 21st century personality, but it seems unlikely that we could do so today. Jim |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
John, I think what separates Jesus from others, is that he didn't merely echo what had been before. The world had seen great moral teachers (both Jewish and Pagan). It was not his moral teaching that was amazing, but his doctrine concerning himself. He claimed to be the transcendent God, become flesh. The deeds surrounding that claim are equally remarkable. I assume you're referring to Scientology, in your reference to Tom Cruise. But such a religion, at it's core, is purely humanistic, and proclaims the individual as his own savior. Didn't Greek philosophy say the same thing in various ways? Didn't also the Eastern religions say the same thing? I know this thread is not to debate the merits of such an idea, but at least it can't be thought as innovative or original. Also you might be subtly suggesting that Jesus was an actor (as Tom Cruise is). In which case, I would recommend you take a look at what C.S. Lewis called "The Trilemma- Liar, Lunatic, or Lord". The Trilemma is anything but an absolute kind of proof, but it is thought provoking, and deals with the most of the usual objections to his divinity ... and especially with the view that Jesus was just "a good man". Stephen. |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
I think that is a bit of an exauduration. Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
I'm pondering presently, man/Bible/religion conditioning, man/greed/power hungry...who actually wrote the Bible of each religion so to speak...was it truly spiritually driven? Not as debate but knowing, man is man...? the distance to me being, how utterly long ago these religions were brought to life, and by whom....really? Enchantment being the elevating factor.... is modern man any different from |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
LJ, Asimov's Guide to the Bible : The Old and New Testaments (2Vols. in One) by ISAAC ASIMOV amazon.com link Buy it used. Interesting chapters on the new testament, particularly the evolution of Christ, Paul, etc. [This message has been edited by Ron (07-15-2005 05:50 PM).] |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
I will, thank you John I just have a huge problem, which is this... back then, everyone knows, that the priests would not allow the public to read the bible...only the priests had access, then, can you imagine the turmoil when they were forced to turn it over to the public...and before that time, what may they have altered, so that woman had no say, were considered to be heritics if they had an opinion and burned at the stake????? Sorry, but man is man and led by the power of his job...not that there are not good men, there are, but many more corrupt ones... everyone knows that there are books of the Bible missing...and I have a difficult time believing that God, made man is his image, so that he could make woman from his rib, simply to weight on man and bear his children...yet, be estranged from having any form of opinion, ideas, or creative instincts...not to mention, intellectual. I believe man himself, fears an intellegent woman...not all men, mind you, but a lot. and please, I'm certainly not a woman's libber, I love a man to open the door for me, and offer his opinion, but not rule me either...or tell me what I'm "allowed" and not allowed to do? I've seen Church going people and their culture is to dish they're husbands food on his plate for him...hand it to him, yet not sit down at the table to eat with him? And I firmly believe, that, the priests began this beginning for woman, surpressed them...enslaved them actually. no one can tell me it was supposed to be that way...and any man who mistreats a woman, or stagnates her growth, keeps her from excelling to her fullest potentiol...wull, I pray he comes back as a woman...hehe if there is such thing as reincarnation, and if not, then that would be a job for God's to do list? I think...gulp. (just kidding) so, yes, John I will read this with open mind...thank you so much for sharing. [This message has been edited by LeeJ (07-20-2005 06:53 AM).] |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Why didn't God get Shakespeare to write the bible? |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: Lee J, The Bible is actually a compilation of sixty-six different books written over a span of about 1500 years. So when you say "back then", which "then" are you referring to? Though priests controlling scriptures has happened, it mostly happened hundreds of years after the New Testament Canon was firmly established. And when it was done from poor motives, it was not done to hide inconsistencies from knowledgable people who would point them out. But, rather, it was done to have interpretive control over the simple people in order to oppress them. Remember when the Roman Catholic Church taught about indulgences, saying that giving money would acctually help loved ones escape purgatory? That's where this bit of poetry came: "As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs." The Bible was in Latin at that time, a different language than the masses spoke. But if the priests were keeping the Bible from the people, it was to keep them from discovering it's true teachings which would invalidate things they were doing ... such as robbing the poor of their money by teaching them to purchase indulgences. It was certainly not to hide any embarrasment that was in the Bible itself. And remember this example was hundreds of years after the New Testament Canon was closed. Certainly at the time of Christ, and shortly after, when the New Testament documents were written, the priests had no control of such documents because the church had no official "priesthood". Rather it had various charismatic leaders (called apostles) who themselves wrote letters to the churches. And everything was written in Greek which was the predominate language of the people. The Christians were the small, poor, unofficial group standing aloof from the respectable Jewish religion of that day. My point? No one can rightly charge the originators of the New Testament with Ecclesiastical tyranny ... because it wasn't that kind of environment at all. As to "altering" of the Bible by the Church, there's very little evidence of that. The New Testament has better manuscript attestation (more numerous, and closer to the time of writing) than any other ancient literature. With those kinds of numbers, alterations would stick out like sore thumbs. And what changes do exist are inconsequential, not affecting any major doctrine or central teaching of the Christianity. The part about women being oppressed ... This was more a general practice of the ancient world, not something that originated either with the Jewish religion, or the Christian religion. Actually, while biblical teachings about the role of women in marriage and the home do not sit well with the modern feminism and individualism of our day, what is taught in the Bible helped to change the status of women in society from less to more freedom ... and from less respect to more. Marriage in Greek / Roman culture surrounding the early Christian Church viewed women basically as property to be owned. The Church and it's teachings directly opposed this, viewing women as created in God's image, marriage as holy monogamous union, urging husbands to be faithful to, and to love their wives as "Christ loved the Church". So, while I do understand that our contemporary minds are not comfortable with the Biblical teaching about women's roles in marriage and society, I don't think anyone can rightly say that the oppression of women originated with the Bible. If you're going to read Isaac Asimov, just remember that his area of expertise was astronomy. Sure he was a bright guy. But there is a bias to contend with. An atheist astronomer would use the presupposition "miracles can't happen" when assessing whether or not the recorded miracles in the Bible did happen. But true historians shouldn't be so philosophically biased, in my opinion. It leads to the circular argument ... Of course miracles didn't happen. Why? Because miracles can't happen. That's not to say that Asimov's book doesn't contain some really great knowledge and insight. But his conclusions that the religious people who wrote the bible were soley politically motivated, is not surprising considering his atheism. That's about the only conclusion you can come to with that as your starting point. I know bias of some sort is always inescapable. But if you're going to read from that perspective, I would encourage you to go further and read from others as well. "How we got the Bible" by Neil Lightfoot, is a good basic overview. Amazon.com link "The Historical Reliability of the Gospels" by Craig Blomberg, is a bit more scholarly and in depth. Amazon.com link "The Canon of Scripture" by F.F. Bruce, is the most thorough thing I've read on this, but it is scholarly, detailed, and hard for the layman. Amazon.com link "Reasonable Faith" by William Lane Craig, is a good overview of Christian apologetics in general, but it has a chapter about the Bible. Amazon.com link Interesting topic, Stephen. [This message has been edited by Stephanos (07-21-2005 06:21 PM).] |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: Because by the time Shakespeare was born, the Bible had already been written.  Your question is too broad to know exactly how to answer it, but I think I know what you're trying to get at. Are you asking why didn't God choose someone with such an ability as Shakespeare, in order to record the revelation given to us in the bible? God often bypasses "talent" or "wisdom" (by the world's standards) to show that character is really more important than giftedness. The most skillful hands, can function without heart. The Bible says that God has chosen "the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty" (1 Corinthians 1:27). That's not to say that I do not value Shakepeare. (I thoroughly LOVE his works) Nor am I suggesting that there is not amazing literary talent displayed in the Bible. What I am saying, is that God does not use human standards of choosing, which are primarily based upon perceived advantage or ability. That's really good news for simple folk like you and me, Essorant, who are not mighty or wise (in the estimation of the world). God still has a plan for even for people like us. And that is exciting to me.  Stephen. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
I suppose the point I've tried to make is this...man is power hungry by nature and driven by impules, even the most regarded and loved man, owns his own skelatons...no one is perfect...and it is on that imperfection we write...teach....guiding people a lot of times the wrong way... as a child, and I don't remember were, I remember learning, that when ever you read, no matter what your read, read and listen with an open mind, as you are reading, one person's opinion... I have allowed that comment to guide me, since I was a child...and it is clearly so true...I believe in God, but also believe, that somewhere along the line, the Bible is infact, incorrect, b/c it was written by men...and any book you read, once again, is driven on the authors opinion... I have a great amount of faith in God...but His truth will be made known to me, and all of you on the day we come face to face with him...so until then, regardless of any book I read...I remember how power hungry kings were driven even to this very day. Greed and religion, brought people to battle, why? Because everyone thinks and really believes his religion is steadfast...wouldn't it be quit remarkable, to find out, that maybe, just maybe the DiVinci code had some truth to it, and Jesus's seed was walking this earth today? Not to mention, can you imagine, people would be so distraught, after all these years, being conditioned, that their religion was the truth, when every religion, contains it's own man made rules...and thus, becoming very very political in it's own entity? I'm sorry, I don't mean any iota of insult to anyone...but there is not one book written on the face of this earth, that hasn't been edited, including the Bible... and all it's interpretations of the metaphoric content of the Bible. Is it true all true, is it all not true, what parts really happened? I dunno...but what I do know is, there are in fact contradictions... Is there one God, or several Gods? I dunno, but I must stand by my perceptions and experiences...as no one has yet, died and come back to tell us like it really is... If I told you, some of my spritual experiences today, that I believe God talked to me...would you believe it? If I wrote it down, my dreams, and experiences during my awaken ness, would I be deemed illogical, a fraud, or a profit? People are so afraid, they strive towards something that is complete truth...they pick they're Gods...and beliefs...but I've seen way to many contradictions and painful religious political leaders full of themselves...and the power they have been granted within the church, because people need a leader... and I believe to, some of you understand what I'm depicting here. Respectfully with many thanks Lee J. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
"the Bible is infact, incorrect, b/c it was written by men..." The guidelines at Passions were written by humans too. Does that mean they are incorrect? |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: Good rule of thumb, generally speaking. But I don't agree with the "no matter what you read" part. It rules out the possibility of Divine inspiration before we even get started. It just stands to reason that anything really divinely inspired would not be merely an opinion. quote: But you almost believe so, as dogma. As if there just has to be something wrong with it, since it was written by men. That's different than taking particulars, and pointing out what you think is wrong, and why you think so. quote: A great amount of faith in which particular God? Buddhists don't believe in a God. Neither do atheists and agnostics. Hindus believe in about 6 million gods, I think. And which "day" we come face to face with him? Remember that it is a particular, peculiar Judeo-Christian belief that there will be such a day of reckoning. If all writings and revelations are subject to being "opinions", why do you hold your own particular view of eschatology (end-time events) in a different category ... as the very thing which will surely clear up all the other controversies? I'm not trying to shake your faith in what you believe, I'm just trying to show that your attitude about certain things is not quite consistent with the assertion that all is doubtful. quote: But the scriptures (especially the Gospels) weren't first revealed to "Kings" but to common Jews, fishermen, tax-collectors. They were not of the crowd you would typically suspect of being politically motivated, corrupted by power, etc... In fact, it was the more powerful, who were (for whatever reason) not as able to assimilate and understand Jesus' message and mission. There's plenty of solid books out there to (some even by non-Christians) to refute the claims of "The Davinci Code". I've looked into it myself, and could discuss some of the reasons, if you're interested. But I really don't think you'd be convinced that it has even a toe in the realm of credible history, if you studied the issues surrounding it's claims. It is an interesting study. quote: But many don't realize that the claims of such things like "The Davinci Code" are not new. In fact, it gets the main thrust of it's view from writings known as Pseudepigraphal works, which represent a certain gnostic "conditioning" of their own. This anti-orthodox movement also has political overtones, much moreso I think than the personalities surrouding the orthodox view. But if we suspect dishonesty, or cover-ups, it would pay us to study and see if there's any weight to the evidence, either way. I have found that the gnostic gospels are easily discredited, as they also were in the early church. It would surprise many too, that the adherents of orthodoxy rejected these pseudepigraphal works, not arbitrarily out of some rabid thirst for control and power, but for very good reasons. One reason was that their authorship is/ was dubious. Their time of writing was not as claimed, but far later than the actual time of Jesus. They were proven to be forgeries. Much of this can be checked with reasonable scholarly support today. But, fair warning ... when you use scholarship as a defense, someone can always bring scholarship itself into question, by saying that a crooked church so overwhelmed the world of scholarship, that they destroyed all real evidence, and covered their tracks eternally (a divine feat in itself, if you ask me). But now were getting into the conspiracy theory tendency, which can NEVER be falsified, because the evidence against it also comes from the hands of conspirators. quote: I really do understand what you're depicting here. I sympathize with it. There's been much to be lamented, that was done in the name of religion. But I've seen enough of truth, to understand that failed versions of it, only underscore our indignant need for the real thing. And to believe that everything is false, only makes our poignant feelings about it trivial. But we know they're really not trivial, that's at least a clue. respectfully, Stephen. |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
Stephanos, Have you ever read, Gulliver's Travels? "I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces." |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
I've never read it in it's entirety, but I'm somewhat familiar with the story line. Stephen. |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
Maybe you should read it again, and in its entirety. It is not only an interesting book, but an intellectually intriguing one, and can make one think about things they may never would of thought about. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Hey Stephanos thanks for taking the time to communicate your thoughts quote: __________________________________________________ Good rule of thumb, generally speaking. But I don't agree with the "no matter what you read" part. It rules out the possibility of Divine inspiration before we even get started. It just stands to reason that anything really divinely inspired would not be merely an opinion. _____________________________________________ Stephanoes, respectfully I've had some very spiritual things happen to me...both awake and in dreams...divine inspiration?...I think so, but what if I wrote it down it would be divinely accepted and the word of God? or an opinion from my own personal experience? quote: _________________________________________________ But you almost believe so, as dogma. As if there just has to be something wrong with it, since it was written by men. That's different than taking particulars, and pointing out what you think is wrong, and why you think so. __________________________________________________ I don't agree...b/c for every particular I feel is wrong, someone would say different...backing it up with Scripture...and opinion, due to their conditioning of their religion, personal experinces, since the time they were young. I see that happen in every forum here, how people take quotes from others who written books or articles and deem it "the absolute truth" challenging with anger & feeling insulted, someone doesn't believe as they do...doesn't say, I'm right and they're wrong, or visa versa. What it is, is personal opinion of the individual. quote: ____________________________________________________ A great amount of faith in which particular God? Buddhists don't believe in a God. Neither do atheists and agnostics. Hindus believe in about 6 million gods, I think. And which "day" we come face to face with him? Remember that it is a particular, peculiar Judeo-Christian belief that there will be such a day of reckoning. If all writings and revelations are subject to being "opinions", why do you hold your own particular view of eschatology (end-time events) in a different category ... as the very thing which will surely clear up all the other controversies? I'm not trying to shake your faith in what you believe, I'm just trying to show that your attitude about certain things is not quite consistent with the assertion that all is doubtful. ___________________________________________________ I see your point and understand...and a very good question, I can't answer that Stepanoes, wish I could...except to say, I believe in no religion inparticular. What I can say, is when I look at nature, and the vital importance of all things, how we're all so connected, the human body, nature, the exact revolutions of each planet, the power of the mind, or the body's ability to heal, the miracle of birth, space & planets, & beyond to other solar systems...the emensity of the universe, the miraculous dimensions, the power of love...molecular science...my gosh, how can one not believe there is something very wise and powerful...not to mention the gifted ones, like Einstein, or an idot sevance...and the light I've seen from a metally retarted child....pure unaldulterated love, their actual glow and pure acceptance...and so on... quote: ___________________________________________________ But the scriptures (especially the Gospels) weren't first revealed to "Kings" but to common Jews, fishermen, tax-collectors. They were not of the crowd you would typically suspect of being politically motivated, corrupted by power, etc... In fact, it was the more powerful, who were (for whatever reason) not as able to assimilate and understand Jesus' message and mission. ____________________________________________________ well, you may be right, but I don't believe God in all his divine power made women to be beneath men, to be withheld from the scriptures, to be looked upon as a slave with no mind, other then to conceive children...I really don't believe God had that in mind... and if Adam and Eve were a true story, then who came first, prehistoric animals or prehistoric man where was the garden of Eden? Why have we never found the arc? Why so many religions with altogether different beliefs, languages, and how did some from the muslim religion actually come to believe that killing people is what God wants?...and the Jewish religion...Jesus was Jewish, and yet, they do not even acknowlege that he was the son of God and so many people actually tried to stop the Mel Gipson film...out of sheer fear? I dunno, there are so so many questions but what I've seen is that fear governs people...fear of venturing beyond their beliefs...fear of allowing others theirs? Yes, I know of many many books, and thank you for the refrences you've also suggested, but again...upon reading those books I can't help but think, how does he/she really know...how can one actually believe "their" faith are the absolute words from God? It is stricly opinion...and every religion in itself is very political. quote: ____________________________________________________ But many don't realize that the claims of such things like "The Davinci Code" are not new. In fact, it gets the main thrust of it's view from writings known as Pseudepigraphal works, which represent a certain gnostic "conditioning" of their own. This anti-orthodox movement also has political overtones, much moreso I think than the personalities surrouding the orthodox view. But if we suspect dishonesty, or cover-ups, it would pay us to study and see if there's any weight to the evidence, either way. I have found that the gnostic gospels are easily discredited, as they also were in the early church. It would surprise many too, that the adherents of orthodoxy rejected these pseudepigraphal works, not arbitrarily out of some rabid thirst for control and power, but for very good reasons. One reason was that their authorship is/ was dubious. Their time of writing was not as claimed, but far later than the actual time of Jesus. They were proven to be forgeries. Much of this can be checked with reasonable scholarly support today. ____________________________________________________ Again, you may be right, but how can one look at the last supper (by the way, much of the information regarding DiVinci and his art, I learned while taking art classes many years ago) and dispute, that there was in fact a woman sitting beside Jesus, why, how dare that even be considered? Maybe it was DiVinci's way of pulling a fast one, but...we all know, that amoung the many early great artists, there were secret codes depicted in their paintings, b/c they were afraid to be banned from society due to their beliefs... There are many things left to question...and it isn't Satin making me question the Bible, as I love God and His Son very much! But I don't believe in my heart, they would surpress women from even an important job like being a deciple? Man is a whole derived from two halfs, one could not be without the other. Jesus was a man and why would God not grant him the spiritual gift of knowing physical love? so so many of the old time fundamentalists feel that Jesus was celebate. Why, b/c apparently in their own minds Jesus would never stoop that low? Which in my mind tells me, these people actually believe physical love is something very wrong...well it's not! To me, making love, is the only thing we have to give of ourselves to another, which is a precious and miraculous gift, and not be shared with just anyone. I don't believe God would not want Jesus to know of this and forbid him a mate, otherwise, how could Jesus speak of an all powerful love which is all things...giving, joy, disappointments, mistakes,....remember, God made men & women, made a mate b/c he didn't want Adam to be alone? quote: ___________________________________________________ But, fair warning ... when you use scholarship as a defense, someone can always bring scholarship itself into question, by saying that a crooked church so overwhelmed the world of scholarship, that they destroyed all real evidence, and covered their tracks eternally (a divine feat in itself, if you ask me). But now were getting into the conspiracy theory tendency, which can NEVER be falsified, because the evidence against it also comes from the hands of conspirators. ____________________________________________________The conspiracy theories, well, simply put, there may be something to them...how else to control man? Remember the days when a woman wasn't allow to read the word of God? Or how bout the time, when only the priests had access to the Bible? Stephano, scholarships mean nothing to me, I've seen how scholarships take behavior and give it a label to difine the problem, or excuse it, and medicate the patient, which is not healing, but a temporary fix. Quite frankly, I don't care who you are (not meaning you inparticular):supergrinn: or where you came from...or what college you've graduated from...what I care about is how you treat me now, regardless of my beliefs...or how insulted one becomes b/c I express my opinion...as long as I express respectfully, thoughtfully, with great allowance. What I care about is when I see people who do believe in the Lord by their religion only make comments like, "You've got to be saved to go to heaven" or "you've got to hang around with people of our faith" or hear a woman speak the words, "If a person of another color joined our church, I'd leave" how utterly narrow minded... and on, and on, and believe me, I've studied several religions...and seen my share of snotty beliefs....looking down on others b/c they don't go to the same church...the money mongers of the churches ramming their beliefs down the throats of others b/c they tithe more then most. No sir, from the beginning of the time I was confirmed, I started asking questions, and was silenced or scolded b/c they didn't have answers... so I church hopped for the rest of my life, up until a few years ago...been to all types of religions/churches, bible study, even was a Sunday School Teacher, but I just can't go along with all the contradictions of man made rules, which exist in each and every religion. Gosh, how shallow it is to actually believe it is right to say, you cannot partake in communion, unless you confess your sins to a man of the cloth...those sins are between you and God, and saying 5 hail mary's will not get you forgiveness, but people actually believe it does? And those are just a few examples..and please, I don't mean any attack here on any religion, simply talking from my experience. It just doesn't work for me? Yes, I do believe in a supreme being..and there is much to the many books I've read, and probably some very impressive answers in the books you've also suggested....butcha know, like I said, when ever my time comes to go, I do so hope I get to meet God...but Stephanoes, I don't know if there will be an end, or when, and yes, I do sway back and forth to my childhood conditioning, perhaps man, in all his greed and desire for power will destroy himself...but my faith, is a very privot thing, between God and myself and I don't have to explain it, or try to impress anyone with gigantic words or reciting scriptures(and please believe, I'm not thowing stones at you, honest) God knows my needs, the one thing, I would like to believe is that Jesus's seed might very well be walking this earth...it's not a impossiblity. Who knows about the myths, if there is life on other planets...what if another civilization exists and came here as our watchers...there are pictures of space men in caves...yanno? J Our government hides things from us, do you actually believe there weren't power hungry leaders back then who decided that man needed a set of rules to guide them, so they wrote down stories which they truely believed. My feelings Stephanoes are not trivial, due to what I believe about God...I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, I just don't know...and there are a lot of answers we will never know...about everyday life and relationships. People do not react for one reason, but for many... Man is so desprate for love, answers, to believe in something...searching for some divine wisdom...looking for something to believe in, someone to believe in...(perhaps thats why relationships today don't do well) They desire to believe in something beyond they're comprehension...so few people believe in themselves, so much so, that they don't have to debate, but more so allow, and realize, everyone has their own time and place and purpose to learn... or those that exclude people from their circles or even society, b/c you believe something different from them, who in God's name is to say society is right? If people really believed in God, I don't think our world would be in the situation it is today, and what society shuns the poor and hungry? What society constantly labels law breakers and murderes to excuse their actions...what society thinks that laws do not apply to them..., what about clicks, in school and the common everyday workplace...the absolute mean ness in gossip...what about our laws, being broken down for the sake of greed? What about society throwing a person in the street if they don't go along with the crowd...it's been going on since the beginning of time. People say, oh, it's getting worse, and it surely is, there are more people...and we are privy now to more information...but do you ever wonder why we're not much further along? Both physically and mentally? I mean, look at the amount of our brains that we use...? I wonder sometime about the conspiracy to keep people under educated and mis informed? Has anyone got a clue out there about what is really going on...and these people go to church every weekend? And truly believe their concept is the absolute truth? It's amazing...and the words of the Bible have been bent to suit each own. and so I end this by saying... thank you for sharing and allowing me to share... but I don't buy religion, nor the words of the Bible to be absolute. Look at the fear in those priests and people who debated the DiVinci code...if they really believed in God and loved God, they'd allow, but inevidably they had to prove that concept wrong, b/c they are afraid to say to themselves, hmmm, maybe all these years we've been lied to, just maybe? And what makes me believe we have is the fact, just take a look at all religions, each one feels like theirs is the absolute, and yet, there are man made rules within that they really do believe are words of the Bible? Sincerely Lee J. [This message has been edited by LeeJ (08-17-2005 03:31 PM).] |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
and I really wish someone would teach me how to do quotes? sheesh, can't figure that one out?  [This message has been edited by LeeJ (08-17-2005 02:51 PM).] |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Lee, check your mail!  |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
LeeJ, I am clapping for you! I only hope you don't let organized religion and those who are followers scare you, so that you ruin your short and one and only life. How dare people tell others that they are not saved. How dare people tell other people that they need saved. How dare people judge others and then act like that they are not doing any judging. How dare people who tell others that they are going to an eternal hellfire if they don't accept their god! This... is the problem with religion and the humankind. One person reads a book and studies from others and think he, along with the rest, know the mysteries of life and death - Bumsquat! But what I really liked about your above posting is this... You hit it right... It amazes me how so-called religous people are so conceited and so full of themselves that they don't even know it. How smug they are in their own security of what they believe. If there is a Creator, I can look at Him or Her face to face and not be ashamed for how I treated others, knowing that I would never judge or tell another human being what or whom they should believe in. That, that was not my business and was between that person and her Creator. And that I cared even for the strangest of strangers. One more note about a true religion or way to believe in a Creator. We learn in so many different ways. We learn in so many different languages and cultures and societies. People don't all come to the same conclusions, even on what movie to go see. People are different and believe in so many different things. We were created this way (arguing from a Creatonist viewpoint). Why would a Creator then only give to us ONE way to understand and come to know Him/Her? Sorry, folks, this man just aint buying it. Don't give me your Saviour. ... and please, before any person of religious faith chimes in with, "Well, it is in the Bible, so I am right." that is what I am talking about in the first place." Great post, LeeJ. "I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces." |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
JCP, thanks very kindly for reading such a long long rant...I just hope that when people read it, they understand, I'm not trying to say anyone is wrong...and not every christian who attends church everyweek is a bad person, there are some very devoted people who hold tightly to their religion and live by example only...I admire them...I suppose what it comes down to, is whatever works for each individual... and JCP, I allow no one to scare me anymore...if a person is going to walk away from me, b/c they feel, due to my beliefs, I wouldn't live up to their standards, then so be it...I really don't care...best that we part company now...and I respect and understand their decission... in the same, I hope everyone understands...I'm not downing anyone for what they believe in....I've just seen way to much in my lifetime in Church hopping trying to find a religion...and it all came down to power and money...although, there was one little Luthern Church I belonged to, that were not like that...which to me spoke this...the leaders of that church were humble allowing people...and so was the pastor. In todays world, people are so afraid to stand up and say, this behavior is wrong...so they go along with the crowd... all I'm saying is beware just a little bit, what crowd you buy into...in every walk of life, not just religion...cuz once you belong to a crowd, people are afraid to speak up when they see something wrong, and they are more likely to defend that wrong, rather then try and correct it... Again...please know, I'm not attacking every person who attends Church....or say if you do your wrong...it just doesn't work for me anymore...and what my life is about...is between my God and myself... |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
Hey, if they don't understand, so what? It is obvious you are not putting any person down for his or her beliefs. You are secure in your beliefs. That is most important. I know of people who actually lost their minds over coping with religious beliefs - so unsure of themselves and their own worth, that they "lost it." I agree with you. Whatever floats one boat is fine by me when it comes to what one believes in. I simply cannot stand it when others judge another over not believing in what they believe in. Cheers! "I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces." |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
Well, not being really knowledgeable about Paul, and only slightly AWARE of Tom Cruise...was Paul just another 'pretty face' that liked to be the center of attention, at any cost? As for the others, Buddha, Shrist, Mohammed? They were, and remain in my estimation, interesting teachers, worthy of many readings. (BTW, you might also read Baha'u'llah.) |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I'm sorry. [This message has been edited by Essorant (08-19-2005 11:02 PM).] |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
Say what? I am talking about people who say you must accept their point of view on God or be damned for eternity. Don't accept mine, and I couldn't care less. I don't get your reply. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: Lee J. I was only trying to point out that you are already believing very particular things religiously. That's not a bad thing. quote: For example, what you've described above is nothing less than belief in a transcendent personal God. There are only three religions in the world that believe that. I would say that believing in such would definitely identify you with a particular religious vein ... even if you have not settled on one of the alternatives down that road. quote: I don't either. And there's a pretty good case that the Bible doesn't teach anything like that. Of course some people have duped others by teaching scripture out of context, by bringing out points that seem to support their particular imbalance, and deftly hiding or not making mention of scriptures that would seem to contradict their personal abuse. quote: Those are all good questions (best taken one at time), as long as their mere existence doesn't rule out belief. Are these questions that you are really asking now, or are you just rhetorically reminding me that there are many many questions surrounding the faith? If you are, then yes, I am very aware of that. And I am not a stranger to having questions. I don't like it when people tell me to believe without questioning anything, either. I think we were supposed to question and seek. quote: There are many ways to answer that question. Firstly, I would say that it's because human-kind was created with a need and desire ... a kind of innate knowledge that there is something higher to worship. But why would there be so much falsehood, contradiction, and turmoil associated with religious belief? Christianity would attribute much of this to the fall, and to Satan. If there are conscious evil forces at work to turn us away from the truth. If somebody "doesn’t want us to get it" then wouldn’t it be reasonable to suppose that counterfeiting would be one of his methods? But if that's the case, then the question arises: Why is there so much truth and goodness in ALL religions? Because lies can't even operate apart from the truth. And the nature of truth is in liberality, not in miserly withholding. Truth is flung far and wide because God wanted it that way. He has a reason for it. And whatever is true, or lovely, ultimately points to Christ. One of the most liberating things about coming to faith in Christ, for me was not having to think that other religions are bad through and through. Of course the Bible says that there is only one true God, and only one divine person through whom we may come to him, but it doesn’t suggest that there is no truth or beauty outside of Christendom. quote: Well, Justice is an attribute of God. But so is Mercy. I would say that the Muslims, have lost this balance, and therefore are convinced that they are doing God a favor by administering what they are sure is justice. If there is no spiritual understanding of mercy and love, through Christ, then things are bound to be lopsided. And the so-called revelation given to Mohammed (who was literally a warrior), and its message of Jihad is believed by Muslims to supercede the New Testament which says "Blessed are the Peacemakers". quote: I'm not trying to disrespect you at all, for your beliefs. That’s not my intention. I'm just trying to clarify by asking you to explain what sounds like a contradiction to me. You said earlier that you believe “no religion in particular”, yet here you say say that you love “God and his Son”. Isn’t that particular to Christianity? That’s getting pretty specific, since the divine sonship of Jesus is THE central doctrine of the Christian belief. quote: Neither do I. The women in the New Testament were definitely disciples (ardent followers) of Jesus. And you are right, Genesis 1:27 says "God created man in his own image ... male and female he created them". As if "man" in God’s eyes was summed up by these two members together in glorious union. Though I believe that there is some difference of authority in marriage, I do not believe that men are "better" than women ... just different. quote: Your second statement actually answers your initial question. You said that making love is a "precious and miraculous gift", which is "not to be shared with just anyone". Well, the Jews (including Jesus) always understood sexual relations outside of Marriage to be fornication. Since the most reliable documents about Jesus (the synoptic gospels, and the gospel of John) record that he was indeed unmarried celibate, it would stand to reason that a man who was better than any other man, would avoid the sin of fornication. Now if you are basing your belief on the psuedepigraphal works (written much later by dubious authors), as Dan Brown does, then you are going to get a different picture of Jesus. I believe that Jesus was celibate because 1) it is more tenable belief (historically speaking), and 2) because his life was set apart for an itinerant ministry to the poor, sick, oppressed people of Israel, and also to eventually be misunderstood, betrayed, captured by the authorities, and crucified for the sins of the world. Marriage would only have been an incumbrance, getting in the way of what he came to accomplish for his mystical Bride, the Church ... for you and me. As soldiers leave their marriage delights to go overseas and fight for their country ... so Jesus left his marriage rights WILLINGLY to accomplish something higher. That doesn't mean that Marriage is bad. He never taught that. And I don't know any preachers / ministers / or Christians who teach that. Though I'm sure there are fringe groups who do so, at the expense of true-to-the-text Biblical interpretation. Again, you don’t have to believe that sexuality means "stooping low", or "something very wrong", to believe that Jesus was celibate. I believe he was celibate for reasons specific to his calling, not out of any a priori condemnation of sex. Jesus was not an ascetic. The New Testament teaches that sexuality, and marriage, are wonderful gifts of God to be celebrated. They just happened to be gifts that Jesus denied himself, because he loved us enough that he felt he had something more important to do. And I'm more than glad that he did. quote: I am not at all insulted. And I will try to treat you with respect. That doesn't mean I won’t challenge your beliefs, as you do mine. Even those who disagree may do so in a kind manner, don't you think? quote: I'm not sure what you mean when you say "by their religion only". But, isn’t it reasonable to suppose that someone who calls Jesus "Lord", will at least try to adhere to what he said and taught? Otherwise, it seems to me, that "Lord" is much too strong a word. When Christians say "You’ve got to be saved to go to heaven", they are only believing and restating what the text of the Bible says in various places, and particularly relating things that Jesus spoke. I still think such a thing can be said with both respect and love. In fact, if I really believe it, you should less of me if I obscure it, just because I want you to like ME. That's thinking more of myself than of you. Of course I do want you to like me too. "You’ve got to hang around with people of our faith" ... and "if a person of another color joined our church, I’d leave". ... Concerning these, Lee, you're absolutely right! How utterly narrowminded. I can’t defend these statements at all. And if I ever hear things like that it makes me just as angry as you. quote: I don't think you should ever have been scolded for questions. Even if someone happens to be right, they can create an unnecessary offense, and make it impossible for someone to even want to learn from them. Maybe they mistook your questions for irreverence or something. I assure you I don't want to make that same blunder. I am thrilled that you are so inquisitive. quote: God does know your needs, intimately. And no, it’s not an impossibility. I definitely believe that his "seed" is walking the earth ... maybe not through a literal genetic posterity, but through faith and a new birth. Jesus once asked onlookers, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" and pointing to his disciples said "Here are my mother and my brothers, for whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother". Stephen. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Dear Stephan First allow me to say, that I do like you!!!  and feel great appreciation/admiration, that you've taking the time to discuss this issue. It is so difficult expressing in forums as one cannot see another’s facial expressions, and please allow me to clarify...my statements were not directed at you personally, nor did I think you were attacking me. I write as I speak, and unfortunately when I say you, I mean, anyone....let me clarify... Upon writing, “I don’t care where "you’ve" (should have been I don't care where "anyones" been) but how "you" (should again have been, but how that person) treats me now. Unfortunately, its how I express myself meaning, not you, individually/singularly but anyone out there who I meet. People as a whole…..understand? Sorry for the confusion Honestly, never thought you were attacking me, rather, enjoying this, like two people over coffee, picking each others brains... You have expressed some good view points...adding, even though you may be right about my belief in God and His son, I won't ever allow it to govern my personal being as a religion...to me, it is my faith, not my religion! Stephan, thank you for taking the time to converse in this forum to help me understand your points of view...you've been very kind patient and informative... Sincerely Lee J. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: You are very welcome, Lee. I enjoyed the exchange very much. Stephen. |
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