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Passions in Poetry

Come back, Brad!

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serenity blaze
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0 posted 06-25-2005 09:05 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I have a question:

"What makes argument, rational?"
Local Rebel
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1 posted 06-25-2005 11:17 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

what do you mean by argument, and rational?
serenity blaze
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2 posted 06-25-2005 11:22 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

yer stealing my thunder, you rolling Reb!

Brad
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since 08-20-99
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3 posted 06-26-2005 11:47 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
What makes argument, rational?


What do you mean?
serenity blaze
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4 posted 06-26-2005 08:32 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Actually, it was a legitimate question as I'd like to learn how to present my ideas a bit better. Is there more to this stuff than just saying what I think?

I just finished thanking Local Rebel for saying more clearly what I was TRYING to say in another thread. And nodding glum, I even went to Barnes and Nobles to look for a book to help me learn how to write better so I don't come off sounding so hysterical all the time.

Serenity is glum, guys.
Ron
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5 posted 06-26-2005 10:56 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Barnes and Nobles? Sounds familiar. Isn't that a comedy team, like Abbot and Costello?

Amazon Link
serenity blaze
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6 posted 06-26-2005 11:02 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Thanks Ron.

That is much more convenient, but there's no coffee smells, or...inhale....that "new book" smell.

*smile*

I wish they sold that smell in aerosols.
Local Rebel
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7 posted 06-26-2005 11:02 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

the short primer...
http://www.philosophyclass.com/logic.htm
Local Rebel
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8 posted 06-26-2005 11:04 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I'm getting a browser bug page with your link Ron... for some reason it thinks I'm using mozilla when I'm running IE... ???
Essorant
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9 posted 06-26-2005 11:51 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I too   
Ron
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10 posted 06-27-2005 02:19 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Wow. You don't see the great amazon.com screw up very often, but their search results don't seem to be linkable any longer. I doubt that will last long, as their reputation for usability is well founded, but in the meantime . . . a search for "critical thinking" will return a cornucopia of good offerings.

And, Karen, you can do what I do. Order your books, and when you see the UPS truck pull onto your street, start a fresh pot of coffee. You get the coffee smell, the new book smell, and all WITHOUT ever standing in a line.

serenity blaze
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11 posted 06-27-2005 06:35 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Wow. I thought that browser thing was something I did.

And Ron, I must confess ulterior motives for the bookstore forays. I figger a bookstore has gotta have some intelligent men in there, and sometimes I go in there to remind myself what one looks like in the flesh.

Your way, the only option is the UPS guy, and my dog, Annie, literally tries to kill that action.

And I was wondering if you had the name of a particular book in mind, would ya mind just telling me?

(and sheesh, Ron, don't ya like to go anywhere?)

wow

Ron
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12 posted 06-27-2005 08:33 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
And I was wondering if you had the name of a particular book in mind ...

Not really.

quote:
(and sheesh, Ron, don't ya like to go anywhere?)

Not really.
Stephanos
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13 posted 06-30-2005 04:34 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Karen,

I'm trying to figure out more precisely what you're looking for.  Are you looking for something like "Logic 101", "Philosophy 101", or "Expressive writing 101"? Because, remember, good expression and good thinking don't always go together.  There have been some amazing writers whose philosophies aren't worth spitting at, and vice-versa.  

But anyway, if you let me know more exactly what you're aiming at, I might be able to give you some recommendations.  


BTW, I love Barnes and Nobles too.  Just being in a room with that many books gives me a rush .... (or maybe it's the coffee)       At any rate, my wife doesn't like me to go very often, because she can't seem to get me without resorting to physical force.

Stephen.
Sunshine
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14 posted 06-30-2005 04:45 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

http://www.odessa.edu/dept/english/mjordan/2nd_essay.htm

Serenity, I Googled this site by typing in "how to argue rationally".

Maybe it will give you a boost?
serenity blaze
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15 posted 06-30-2005 08:10 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Thanks everybody.

And I DID find something in the stacks at B&N too, and my question was addressed in the intoduction! (I get a little "rush" when that happens.)

And I will bookmark all the links you have all kindly provided too.

And now, if I understand this correctly, the first step to appearing rational is to put the gun down.

(Just kidding Ron. )

I'll be around--I'm having a 'the-husband-is-home' kinda day.

Essorant
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16 posted 07-04-2005 05:01 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"And I DID find something in the stacks at B&N too, and my question was addressed in the intoduction! (I get a little "rush" when that happens.)"


What book did you find?
serenity blaze
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17 posted 07-04-2005 05:12 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

"What Philosophers THINK"

edited by Julian Baggini & Jeremy Stangroom

and there's not much else I can say about it yet, since I bought it for the introduction.



(and I'm still immersed Faulkner right now, but I'm getting a round to it)

But in the intro, there was my question, "What makes an argument rational?"

And they point out that is a philosophical question in itself.

*chuckle*

This stuff can be maddening.

Prolly why I'm interested, what with masochistic tendencies and a martyr complex and all.

*hugs* Ess.
serenity blaze
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18 posted 07-04-2005 05:13 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

AND? It was on the "clearance" stack (Ron)



four bucks, new book and coffee smells too.

I thought it was worth the trip.
Brad
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19 posted 08-31-2005 12:31 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

A rational argument is based on two things:

1. consistency

2. focus


That doesn't mean it is necessarily right. It does mean that it can't be argued on its own merits. That is, it makes sense.
Essorant
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20 posted 09-05-2005 11:49 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant


Rational:

A corruption of the phrase "rash and null"

Such corruptions take place in languages thro very high frequency of usage.  


  
LeeJ
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21 posted 09-06-2005 12:50 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Serenity/Karen
Your a gal after my own heart...and I know what you mean, b/c I have the identical problem...especially in person...bad enough, so many people take my words wrong cuz I guess I think out loud, not meaning to insult, but somehow, seem to insult others...

and yeah, I'd certainly like to know how to better my communication skills to...so when you get some answers, let me know, K?

Love ya
and thank you for this thread
Essorant
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22 posted 09-06-2005 01:35 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

A good way to better communication skills is reading aloud from a book that has wonderful wordcraft and grammar.   Virgil's and Shakespeare's works are good choices.  But you may choose Poetry or Prose, or Earlier or Modern work.  Though it is best to have a longer work for this.  
Every day take some time to make sure to read a long length of it aloud and as clearly as possible.  
If you really want to be serious you may even record your voice and then listen to it on the recording afterward, where you may  more critically judge your own voice and clarity in speech.  
It may sound like it is not something that may help spontaneous speech; but I think it does.  Speech is full of habits that become like instincts.   The more you practice among good habits, the more those good habits become like instincts to you.  
I hope that helps

  
LeeJ
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SE PA


23 posted 09-07-2005 08:16 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Hey Ess...how are you?

Sounds like a great idea...but, what does one do if they are a very emotional speaker, being very passionate about the topic to the point of taking it very personal...would your advice then apply?
Baba Michi
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24 posted 12-13-2005 05:36 AM       View Profile for Baba Michi   Email Baba Michi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Baba Michi

I think something that would greatly help you would be to learn the parts of a Roman Oration.  I'm sure you could google it.  It gives you a very handy structure around which to base your argument, so that it is coherent and rational.  I don't think there is anything wrong with being passionate in an argument.  It can have a good effect, as long as it doesn't degenerate into hysteria...  DON'T YOU THINK?!
 
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