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Passions in Poetry

The Bible,

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~DreamChild~
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in your dreams


0 posted 02-14-2005 08:42 PM       View Profile for ~DreamChild~   Email ~DreamChild~   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ~DreamChild~

what can be said about the bible? it is an amazing book. it really does have the power in it to change one's life completely. it offers eternal life and happiness, and promises the existence of heaven and God.

far out claims this book makes to be true. an almighty creator: one that speaks and interacts with men in the world, life after death, and the ressurection of a dead man that performed miracles so great, and was born of a virgin too.

If Jesus was a man, how could he be god? He was just a charismatic, fanatical religious preacher, that's all. there's lots of those. And God is three entities in one being? now just how is that possible?

How could this possibly be true? Why should I trust a book written by just plain old people, over a span of centuries? I've never seen a miracle, or heard a voice from heaven, and theres too many religions in the world to believe this bible alone for eternal life.
Hisorically, the bible is infallable.

Spiritualy, the bible is fulfilling.

Faithfuly, the bible proves true to those who strive to understand it correctly.

but fundamentally, the bible is a book, and nothing more...

unless one believes.

jbouder
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1 posted 02-15-2005 06:33 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

quote:
what can be said about the bible? it is an amazing book. it really does have the power in it to change one's life completely. it offers eternal life and happiness, and promises the existence of heaven and God.


I agree.

quote:
far out claims this book makes to be true. an almighty creator: one that speaks and interacts with men in the world, life after death, and the ressurection of a dead man that performed miracles so great, and was born of a virgin too.


Also true.

quote:
If Jesus was a man, how could he be god? He was just a charismatic, fanatical religious preacher, that's all.


If Jesus were God, it follows that the kenosis is certainly possible.

quote:
there's lots of those.


True, but none of Jesus' quality, as even Christianity's staunchest critics admit.  See:

http://www.biola.edu/antonyflew/

Furthermore, if he rose from the dead, I'd say that sets him apart from the competition.

quote:
And God is three entities in one being? now just how is that possible?


Just to make sure I'm clear on what you're asking, are you asking how God who created the universe with a word and sustains it with his power can defy human, rational constructs?

quote:
How could this possibly be true? Why should I trust a book written by just plain old people, over a span of centuries?


If "plain old people" testify truthfully, do we diminish their testimony solely on the basis that they were "plain old people"?  That's assuming, of course, that Paul of Tarsus was a "plain old" person - by all credible scholarly accounts, Paul was a first-rate philosopher, rhetorist, and Hebrew scholar.  You might ask how I can reconcile reason and belief in my own faith - if you did (and time allowed), my answers might be longer.

quote:
I've never seen a miracle, or heard a voice from heaven, and theres too many religions in the world to believe this bible alone for eternal life.


I've never seen Napolean or heard Shakespeare recite a poem - should I then dismiss the historicity of Waterloo or conclude that Shakespeare was mute?  Further, if the Judeo-Christian claims preserved in the Biblical record are more plausible than the canons of other faiths, why shouldn't it be given precedence over the others?

quote:
Hisorically, the bible is infallable.


Infallible [pertaining to the Bible] - def. Incapable of error in expounding doctrine on faith or morals.

Again, I think we agree (albeit unintentially).

quote:
Spiritualy, the bible is fulfilling.


I agree.

quote:
Faithfuly, the bible proves true to those who strive to understand it correctly.


Agreed, with my usual legalistic disclaimers (i.e., I can't vouch for those who strive diligently but commit errors in interpretation).

quote:
but fundamentally, the bible is a book, and nothing more...

unless one believes.


Does belief determine reality or is it the other way around?  As my professors have reportedly said, "I think you need to develop your thesis."

Jim
hush
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2 posted 02-16-2005 10:51 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

'Does belief determine reality or is it the other way around?'

Good point. In a nice happy little perfect world- we'd all be able to exist after life just how we believed- while living- that we would.

But, uh, if it is the other way around, I'm screwed.

My perception of is that I don't know and I won't know, so I'm not going to worry too much about it and I'll let my actions in life speak for my fundamental humanity. All I know is that no book or story that inspires religious faith has ever sounded right to me, and there's no faking that. I'll cross the religion bridge if and when something does call to me.

And, Jim, if you're right and I'm not, I guess your faith will speak louder than my actions or my words, huh?

(BTW that might sound sarcastic- don't mean it to. Just tired.)
Brad
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3 posted 02-16-2005 11:02 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
Does belief determine reality or is it the other way around?


Yep.

  
Essorant
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4 posted 02-17-2005 10:23 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Well answered Brad.  
I agree  
jbouder
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5 posted 02-17-2005 11:28 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Hush, Brad, and Ess:

As I see it, faith/belief proceeds from facts (i.e., reality) and actions follow in response to faith/belief.  Faith cannot speak at all - but actions can.

The problem arises when faith is divorced from reason - granted, faith and reason are distinct, but interconnected in that they are both human capacities.  Faith without reason blows people up.  Faith with reason tethers us to the ground so that we don't lose sight of our responsibilities to others.

Jim
Arnold M
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6 posted 04-13-2005 11:05 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Well said, Jim

Arnold
Essorant
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7 posted 04-23-2005 05:57 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (04-23-2005 06:44 PM).]

Essorant
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8 posted 04-24-2005 02:09 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"Faith cannot speak at all - but actions can."

  
The suggestion that actions are more vocative and expressive than spiritual lores, spiritual hopes, spiritual words, influences, sayings, songs, literature, et cetera, that altogether may be part of a faith, is very doubtful.  

Actions are always part of the service in one way or another, and even more spiritual influences are surely "actions" in another sense, but in the sense of physical statements, I don't think they are ever more expressive, articulatory, or vocative  than faith.  

I think a faith is probably stronger and more influential because it is more linguistic overall: it involves language much more.  And language is the means in which we think.  When we use language better, we may think better in our heart, and when we think better in our heart we may act better in our deeds.  And when we act better in our deeds, we may make a better civilization.  

Deeds in a roundabout way may be called a secondary speech such as math even may.  But we may only use more physical things to speak with only in a narrow and much more limited way, just as we use numbers in a much more limited way than words.

Math and actions may never express morals to any such fathom as our faith and a primary language such as English.  I will further say a primary language as English is probably more important than faith, actions, and math, as a communication, because if we may not speak primary language well, that we primarily think with, we are hindered in other form of learning and expressions.  Faulty language is a dam in the current of learning.
And physical actions simply may not be language, nor remove that dam, ever as well as better language itself may.  When that dam is removed, and the moral language is found again, the faith may flow , and the actions, ever more swiftly and more clearly.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (04-25-2005 01:31 AM).]

timothysangel1973
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9 posted 04-29-2005 12:23 AM       View Profile for timothysangel1973   Email timothysangel1973   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit timothysangel1973's Home Page   View IP for timothysangel1973

quote:
"If Jesus was a man, how could he be god?"



Jesus isn't God.... if you have really read the Bible, then you know that JESUS is the SON of God... not God Himself

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

quote:
I've never seen a miracle


Well, you probably have seen several of them just not thought it as a miracle.

And, I guess I could break down your entire post and respond to everything that you have said, but we are all entitled to our opinions.  However, let me add... it seems to me that you put alot of beleif into what you don't beleive is true, and if you question the Bible and the intentions behind the scriptures, perhaps you may want to purchase a book that will help you understand the Bible before you convince yourself that it couldnt possible be true just because it was written by ordinary people centuries ago.


jbouder
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10 posted 04-29-2005 10:52 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Angel:

Your quote merely demonstrates the filial relationship between the Father and the Son.  In other words, the Father/Son issue is a relational one, not a qualitative one. It does not rule out the tri-unity of the Godhead.

Jesus has been worshipped as God since the founding of the church.  He is also regarded as God in the Epistles.  Specifically, Paul's Epistle to the Colossians addresses the fully-God/fully-man (i.e., Kenosis) issue.

I cannot see how allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture can lead you to a different conclusion.

Jim
timothysangel1973
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11 posted 04-29-2005 07:55 PM       View Profile for timothysangel1973   Email timothysangel1973   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit timothysangel1973's Home Page   View IP for timothysangel1973

Well, I am no Bible expert however, and I guess I should add that we all interpret the Bible in our own way... however with that being said.

GOD is GOD and JESUS is JESUS

Jesus was born to a virgin, lived, and was crucified on the cross where, he called out to God and gave over his spirit.  He was buried in a tomb, rose on the 3rd day and now.... sits at the right hand of GOD in heaven...

Scripture as I quoted above says that no one comes to the FATHER except through HIM (Jesus)

Now, the scientist will say that he needs proof that they are two seperate beings, and I say... phtttt !!

Who can prove that?
No one that I know of has been born, lived, died, gone to see GOD in heaven with Jesus there by his side, and then came back down to tell us all about it.  Nor, do I hold my breath waiting on such.

I think it all boils down to one point really...

either you beleive in God or you dont.  No one says you have to do either one, and its your choice and your right to beleive the Bible, or not.

In the end, its all about your personal choice.  A person cannot be MADE to beleive, that is something that is done of free will.  
Michelle_loves_Mike
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12 posted 04-29-2005 09:16 PM       View Profile for Michelle_loves_Mike   Email Michelle_loves_Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michelle_loves_Mike

pretty good book of tales, bout it as far as it goes in my world.
timothysangel1973
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13 posted 04-29-2005 09:58 PM       View Profile for timothysangel1973   Email timothysangel1973   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit timothysangel1973's Home Page   View IP for timothysangel1973

Mercy Me

Essorant
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14 posted 04-30-2005 03:40 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

timothysangel1973

But if they were seperate beings, wouldn't the holy ghost  just be from the father, not the son too?  
How may you explain the holy ghost--God's spirit-- being both of the father and son, if the father is God, but the son is not?
  
Essorant
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15 posted 04-30-2005 03:48 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum8/HTML/000579.html
timothysangel1973
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16 posted 04-30-2005 08:59 PM       View Profile for timothysangel1973   Email timothysangel1973   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit timothysangel1973's Home Page   View IP for timothysangel1973

Okay... I found this on a site and IT IS not my original words, yet a quote on a learning site which I have bookmarked.

quote:
Holy Spirit: One of Three Persons of God
The Holy Spirit is one of the three persons of God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For many of us, this is a difficult concept to grasp. The Bible declares that there is only one living God, yet we learn from scripture that He comprises three separate personages. One way to partially visualize this concept is to examine the nature of water (H2O). Water is one element, but it can take on the form of three distinct properties – liquid, ice and vapor. An egg is another picture. It is comprised of the white, the yoke and the shell, yet it is still one egg. Of course, by no means do these examples paint a complete picture of our God, but they are illustrative of the fact that His three “persons” in no way invalidate His oneness.


Also....

quote:
The Holy Spirit, Father and Son all comprise a unified Godhead known in Christianity as the “Trinity.” A common misconception is that Christians believe in three different gods. This isn’t correct. While each “personage” is distinct in function, each shares together in the same deity and each reflects the divine attributes of the one living God.



Copyright © 2002 - 2005 AllAboutGod.com/holy-spirit.htm, All Rights Reserved.


Does that help explain it?  Or do you still see that the three are seperate?  Because I think that even the person that looks for cause and effect in everything will understand the comparisons made to Water and The Egg....

Essorant
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17 posted 05-01-2005 03:08 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

You suggested that the father and the son were seperate; I was just trying to say that the holy ghost is spiritual evidence that they are not seperate, as he always steps forth and flows of both the father and the son together, not just the father.  


"The Holy Spirit is one of the three persons of God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. "

I think "Persons" is a bit misleading.  
It is clearer to see them as selfhoods, roles, or conditions of God.  Just as a woman may be a mother, daughter, and wife without being three persons, God also may be a father, son, and holy ghost without being three gods, or three persons.  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (05-01-2005 12:17 PM).]

timothysangel1973
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18 posted 05-01-2005 12:39 PM       View Profile for timothysangel1973   Email timothysangel1973   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit timothysangel1973's Home Page   View IP for timothysangel1973

Ok, I think that we are confusing each other lol.....

God and Jesus ARE two seperate people.  Now, just exactly how the Holy Ghost works - like I said, I am no expert and will surely look into that further.  

My point was that God is the Father of JESUS

Those two are not one entity.  

God didnt die on the cross, Jesus did.  Jesus called out to God and gave over his spirit.  Jesus rose from the tomb in spirit to be with GOD.

So, yes, I beleive that those two ARE seperate beings.  
Essorant
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19 posted 05-01-2005 04:02 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I think the holy ghost is what made me understand the trinity most of all, that I was confused about before.
The father and son are felt to have one and the same overall spirit, the holy ghost, and that is why they are known as one being.  One being has one overall spirit.  And this spirit was seen in a man that was born on earth: Christ.  
timothysangel1973
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20 posted 05-01-2005 05:33 PM       View Profile for timothysangel1973   Email timothysangel1973   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit timothysangel1973's Home Page   View IP for timothysangel1973

One other thing that I happened upon while reading in the Zondervan Handbook To The Bible by: Zondervan was this:

In Matthew 8 verse 20 you will notice the phrase Son Of Man.  Now this was a phrase that Jesus often used to describe himself.  It emphasizes his humanity (Psalm 8:4) yet points beyond it (daniel 7: 13-14)

I think that for most people it is hard to link the three together while still veiwing them all as three seperate beings.  For me, I see GOD as the FATHER of Jesus and all mankind, and I see the Holy Ghost (Spirit) as the link between both God and Jesus and mortal man.  It is the Holy Spirit that is within us and gives us conviction, and fills us with faith beyond that of what we are unable to see with the naked eye.



The Holy Spirit is therefore explained as "One with God the Father and Jesus Christ, activley at work in the world particularly in and through God's people.

Essorant
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21 posted 05-02-2005 12:51 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

But Christ also says that he is the beginning of all things.  That suggests that he is one and the same God as his Father.
Michelle_loves_Mike
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22 posted 05-02-2005 01:27 PM       View Profile for Michelle_loves_Mike   Email Michelle_loves_Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michelle_loves_Mike

OK, gotta put just one "2 cents" in,,,,,as far as this father/son/ghost thing....

Luke 3:22

and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

So,,,,,now, in my humble opine, dig it....

If you go with the all in one theory,,,seems he's sitting in the water, talking to/about himself, and sitting on his own shoulder...

Granted,,,,said "god" can do anything and all that, but, if you go by the teachngs the bible tosses, most things were taught to make us think, to make sense, and to be a way of learning.
So, if "god" wanted his peoples to percieve him/son/spirit all in one, why would "he" have had this pivital scene come accross as there being three seperate beings?

There are other scriptures that lead one to believe these are three seperate beings/entities:

Acts 2:4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.

Matthew 26:39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

Thats my thoughts on it,,and, if its any cosolation, my dear Mike is a believer of the all in one theory, with the explination of,"cause thats how it is".

Thanx
Essorant
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23 posted 05-02-2005 01:58 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

But if the father and son were seperate beings wouldn't they have two spirits, rather than one Holy Spirit that they equally share?
Michelle_loves_Mike
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24 posted 05-02-2005 02:15 PM       View Profile for Michelle_loves_Mike   Email Michelle_loves_Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michelle_loves_Mike

Makes sense, But, the "holy spirit", in the texts I mentioned above,,,,to me, is mentioned as a sort of being, not state of spirit of a givin "person".
 
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