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Passions in Poetry

The Bible,

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Essorant
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25 posted 05-02-2005 02:50 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Ælmihtig god is se fæder.  Ælmihtig god is se sunu.  Ælmihtig god is se halga gast . Ac þeah-hwæðer ne sind þry ælmihtige godas .  Ac an ælmihtig god.  þry hi sind on hadum and on naman and an on godcundnysse.


"Almighty God is the father.  Almighty God is the son.  Almighty God is the holy ghost.  Although they are not three almighty gods.  But one almighty God.  Three they are in personas and in name and one in Godkindness."

Ælfric's Catholic Homilies: First Series "De Fide Catholica"

[This message has been edited by Essorant (05-03-2005 02:19 AM).]

Michelle_loves_Mike
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26 posted 05-03-2005 08:31 AM       View Profile for Michelle_loves_Mike   Email Michelle_loves_Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michelle_loves_Mike

ESS, that comes from a doctorine of one religions beliefs,,,,there are scads and oodles of religious interpritations out there,,,
kudos to all and their beliefs(and cool to think how our upbringing and choice of "christian" following does influence how we take it all in)

but

leave us do one book at a time, so we don't get lost (mainly me).

take care
Essorant
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27 posted 05-03-2005 01:27 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

[deleted]

[This message has been edited by Essorant (05-03-2005 03:18 PM).]

timothysangel1973
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28 posted 05-03-2005 02:53 PM       View Profile for timothysangel1973   Email timothysangel1973   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit timothysangel1973's Home Page   View IP for timothysangel1973

Essorant
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29 posted 05-03-2005 03:27 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Please don't use derision in this forum.  It only stirs ill feelings that no one needs.


[This message has been edited by Essorant (05-03-2005 04:28 PM).]

timothysangel1973
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30 posted 05-03-2005 08:39 PM       View Profile for timothysangel1973   Email timothysangel1973   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit timothysangel1973's Home Page   View IP for timothysangel1973

Derision

1 a : the use of ridicule or scorn to show contempt b : a state of being derided
2 : an object of ridicule or scorn


Hardly my intention and I do apologize if I offended anyone.  I was just trying to lighten the mood.  As, that is one of my favorite sayings around my house when things are going crazy.

Tima
Essorant
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31 posted 05-03-2005 08:46 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I believe you.  Nothing wrong with lightsome humour.
Though it came across as a poke for the post right above (now deleted)  I was not able to write  unconfusedly what I would, and then your comment came.  
I respect that you were just trying to uplighten the mood though.


[This message has been edited by Essorant (05-04-2005 02:02 PM).]

Essorant
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32 posted 05-04-2005 03:29 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Can we make a compromise among these various doctrines, into one doctrine overall, rather than always being so split up and then disagreeing?

Was not Christ truly one, so should not our doctrine be one?  Is it true that Christ's teachings were truly not split up and broken and disagreeable?  If so, should not our doctrines be united, whole and agreeable?  

If we disagree, as of course we shall, why can't we work to make a compromise and agreement, and then believe in that compromise and agreement?   Wouldn't it be better to be united in a belief about Christ, than divided?  

Just some thoughts.
timothysangel1973
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33 posted 05-04-2005 03:42 PM       View Profile for timothysangel1973   Email timothysangel1973   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit timothysangel1973's Home Page   View IP for timothysangel1973

I agree Essorant, however with that being said most of the world has agreed to disagree as far as religious beliefs are concerned.  Now, for me, and as for how I was raised and the things that I learned.  I learned the following:

God is the devine creator of all (including Jesus)

Jesus is the Son of God and was sent here to die and save us from our sins

The Holy Ghost (spirit) is the spirit that fills us with beleif and conviction beyond what we can see.

Now, with that being said, I do beleive that most people can compare/contrast the three.  As for me, YES I do see them as three seperate beings and not as one.  However, I can see where some may link the three together and see them as ONE united being.  

I personally am NOT a very scientific person.  I do not look for cause and effect within everything and therefore that leaves me to accept things the way they are sometimes and not question which came first.

However, I understand how others may question it and I do not judge them for this inquisitiveness (sp)

I think that your idea above is a good one, however this would most likely never work because we are ALL raised different and with different beliefs/views on religion as a whole.

For instance, and just as an example.  I am Christian, and do not accept or beleive the same as a Jehovah's Witness, or a Catholic.  That does not mean that I sit and look at those religions and say that THEY ARE WRONG... it just means that what I beleive and practice differs greatly from what beleivers of that faith do.

)))HUGS(((

Tima
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34 posted 05-04-2005 06:21 PM       View Profile for time prophet   Email time prophet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for time prophet

"but fundamentally, the bible is a book, and nothing more..."

A book that contains about as much fact as the prophecies of Nostradamus and any other publication of similar ilk. All of which are open to interpretation and argument. Mostly arguments that have led to all sorts of misery.

It belongs in the "Fantasy or Science Fiction" section of the libraries of the world and deserves the same amount of credibility as those publications. Unless of course the libraries have a section for "Drug Induced Hallucinations".

Ringo
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35 posted 05-04-2005 06:58 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

And so- with that statement- the argument portion of this thread begins...

Anyhow..
My daughter hit me with this, "how can three people be one person" idea just a bit ago, and I answered her this way... (after doing some research on the internet with her)...
The Romans (after Caesar) had a system of ruling known as the Triumverate (sp) where in THREE people comprised the ONE office of ruler. It is much (imo) the same effect with the triune G-d. There are three separate entities who- between themselves- are ruling Christianity.
Another analogy is that there are THREE branches that comprise of the ONE US government. While they branches are, themselves, three separate entities, they are, none of them, more important more important than the others and all three are needed to make the government work.

Essorant- To be united in a belief about Christ, and that since Christ is one, that our belief in him should be one takes away our rights to free thought and belief. Although I was raised Catholic, and have moved to a more generic version of Christianity, my thoughts and ideas about the Big Three are- I would guess- quite different than yours, or anyone elses on here. It is not better, it is not worse, it is only different. Even though we might have the same thoughts that Jesus is the Son of G-d, and He came down for our sins, and all of that, we all have the human fault of reading the same passage in a book, and coming away with separate ideas about what that passage meant.

Now, as for time pilot... I would be interested in knowing what gives rise to your thoughts. I am notm interested in the same inflammitory statements that are often used. I am interested in the FACTS that support your statements.
There have been many studies done by religious scholars of ALL faiths, as well as secular groups and they have all come away with the belief that there are many many facts that back up the Bible's versions of history. Did they all come away and say that Jesus did all that was written? no. However, they did caome away with astrological proof that there was, in fact a heavenly phenominon that occurred around the time of the story of the Nativity that would account for the bright star in the sky as is written in the Bible.

The way that the census was done in those days is as was written in the Bible.

The leaders names given for that period in the Bible have been confirmed through
many secular sources.

There is geological proof taht the great flood DID in fact happen.

So, it would seem- to me, anyhow- that the Bible is FILLED with FACTS... or am I having a serious drug-incuced Hallucination??

While I respect your opinion, and the right for you to have it (as much as I disagree with it) I would simply ask that you state your views in a more polite, and less confrontational manner.

They took pictures of our dreams
Ran to hide behind the stairs
And said maybe when it's right for you, they'll fall

timothysangel1973
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36 posted 05-04-2005 07:48 PM       View Profile for timothysangel1973   Email timothysangel1973   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit timothysangel1973's Home Page   View IP for timothysangel1973

Well, I am not one to take sides usually, but I have to agree with Ringo on this one especially this:

quote:

So, it would seem- to me, anyhow- that the Bible is FILLED with FACTS... or am I having a serious drug-incuced Hallucination??

While I respect your opinion, and the right for you to have it (as much as I disagree with it) I would simply ask that you state your views in a more polite, and less confrontational manner.


I DO beleive that it IS possible to have different opinions (and beleifs) without putting down, or ridiculing what someone else beleives in.

Time Pilot - if you beleive the Bible to be that of fiction then obviously that is YOUR opinion and point of view.  For everyone 1 persons that beleives that it is all a great story and nothing more, there are atleast (if not more) 10 more people that say that the Bible is in fact FACTS and TRUTHS.  

Comparing the Bible and God to that of Nostradamus and his predictions is like Walking through a drive-thru and calling yourself a cheeseburger.  Now... with all that said, and as I stated above.  We will NEVER agree on matters related to religion and WHY?

Because some beleive it is true and just leave it there, and others have to be convinced and need scientific proof that it's all true.  

Tima

jbouder
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37 posted 05-05-2005 03:17 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

quote:
I DO beleive that it IS possible to have different opinions (and beleifs) without putting down, or ridiculing what someone else beleives in.


I agree with you with the following incomplete list of off-the-top-of-my-head-caveats:

1. Opinions are not facts.
2. Opinions based on facts can be objectively defended.
3. Opinions not based on facts cannot be objectively defended.
4. If God reveals Himself in space and time to human beings, those revelations are factual, capable of being defended, and subject to objective scrutiny.
5. Opinions concerning God should be subjected to rigorous self-evaluation before being voiced publically.
6. Those voicing and holding fast to opinions concerning God that are founded on anything short of fact or on errors of fact should be subject to correction.
7. Correction is not ridicule.

Faith is not anti-intellectual.  Both are human capacities and are, therefore, inter-related.  Divorcing faith from reason, and, by doing so, from scrutiny, is not open-mindedness. Rather, it is decidedly closed.

Jim

timothysangel1973
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38 posted 05-05-2005 03:52 PM       View Profile for timothysangel1973   Email timothysangel1973   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit timothysangel1973's Home Page   View IP for timothysangel1973

quote:
5. Opinions concerning God should be subjected to rigorous self-evaluation before being voiced publically.


I have to admit that this one left me a little confused.  First of all, how does one self-evaluate a beleif, or an opinion.  I mean c'mon people can and most times do have VARIOUS opinions about God and religion, and there is no stead fast rule that says you must "self-evaluate" that thought, or feeling before you can turn to your friend and say - "This is what I think"  One of the definitions from Merriam-Webster for OPINION is:  belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge.  

That being said, it does not matter if I have evaluated my beleifs or not, the truth remains that I can have my opinion.  The choice comes when I either choose to voice it, or keep it to myself.  And, as a Christian, and I am sure that fellow Christians would agree:  Part of the Christian religion is to spread the word about God, witness to others about him and generally educate those that do not know.

This does not make my opinion, or beleifs supreme in any manner, however my beleifs are based on what I had read in the Bible and what I was taught growing up.  I do not think that evaluating either will make my case stronger or weaker in the eyes of someone that has a totally different veiw on the subject.

quote:
6. Those voicing and holding fast to opinions concerning God that are founded on anything short of fact or on errors of fact should be subject to correction.


You can't possible "correct" an opinion.  You can correct mistakes, and facts, and you can...even further educate a person, but you don't grade opinions like term papers.  As far as them being founded on anything short of FACTS I disagree there too.  I beleive that Jesus was hung on the cross, tho I have never seen the cross.  I beleive that Jesus was buried in a tomb tho I have never seen the tomb, and can't be 100% positive that one even exists.  I try to my best to follow the 10 commandments even tho I have never actually seen the stone in which they were written.  

As far as the "subject to correction" once again, and OPINION and nothing more.

quote:
7. Correction is not ridicule



Nope, correction is yet again another OPINION unless based on fact, which can then again be interrpreted in more ways that one, and as we are all different, we shall continue to view these facts, and opinons in a different light.
Ringo
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39 posted 05-05-2005 09:41 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

The question I have is: "What is opinion based on fact, when the opinion concerns a supreme and all powerful being?"

Let me give you a few "facts" that have led me to my beliefs:

1) My father spent time in Vietnam (not a huge thing... too many others did as well.) and had several things happen that would make one ssuspicious of a Higher Power.
  a) He fell into a Punji pit (a trap with spikes to catch your feet and legs) in the middle of a heavy crossfire that the corpsman couldn't even get to him. The PRIEST eventually made it to him, and neither one of them got so much as a graze from anything metal.
  b) His platoon (30-35 men) was dropped into the middle of a regiment of NVA (over 1,000 men), and he was able to make it back to his extraction point (only 4 of his platoon did) with NO injuries.
  c) He was brought home on an emergency for my brother to have radical kidney surgery at the age of 9 months. While he was home, his entire unit was wiped out in an ambush... the day of the surgery, a pediatric nephrologist (kidney doc for babies) with a national reputation happened to be visiting a friend, and looked over the chart... my brother did not have surgery.
  d) too many other examples not involving my family, but other vets I have talked to.

From personal experience:
  a) I was diagnosed with leukemia at the age of 14... right before the started with the bone marrow transfusion, and all of the hell and hassle that goes with it, a pediatric endocrinologist who just ahappened to be in the area at that specific dispensary (family clinic) 30 miles from the main hospital, and was only there for that day filling in for another doctor, checked things out, and realized I didn't have leukemia at all, and it was something else (obviously) not fatal.
  b) When I was a firefighter, there was a C-141 that crashed on landing at the base I was stationed at. I was on top of the truck about 10-15 feet away from the wing whyen the fuel cell exploded (the fuel cells are kept in the wings). People all over were knocked to the ground, yet I was standing on top of a metal roof, with rubber boots on, and I didn't even budge.
  c)There were many times as an EMT when I was able to save a patient that I was not good enough to save... that I had written off, but just hadn't been dumb enough to quit.
  d) I wqs driving my new baby (3 weeks or so old) home from her first visit to see her maternal grandmother, when the car in front of me, and one lane over slammed into a car that had pulled out of the parking ot without looking. At the speed I was going, I should have plowed into the accident when the cars separated, and the one car came into my lane. I HEARD someone tell me to aim for the crash. Without questioning, or thinking about it, I kept my foot on the gas, and headed right for where the crash happened. The cars separated, and I made it through the accident scene without so much as disturbing the dirt on my car. Had I stayed in my lane, I would have hit the other car doing 55 miles an hour.
   e) The day I buried my father, my aunt baought a scratch ticket and won the exact amount that she had paid to rent her hotel for the time she was there. My wife played the pin number of the winning ticket and it came out straight to net her enough money to pay half of my father's funeral.

While it is true that all of these could be pure coincidents... I suppose... maybe... I guess... There has got to be some reason that those two doctors were right there where they weren't supposed to be at that exact moment. There had to be a reason that my brother wgot sick at that exact moment, when he could have chosen any other day to have it happen. (two days later, and my dad would have been killed... a week before, and my dad would have been killed.)
There has to be a reason why I was able to stand on the top of that truck with a major explosion occuring to provide fire protection for the rescue people in the plane at the time when people qll around me standing on cement were pushed to the ground. There has to be a reason why that trauma code survived (when less than 1% do) and then go on to perform CPR on someone else who survived. There has to be a reason why I heard someone tell me to do something that is so out of the way during a car crash that NO ONE in their right mind would even think about doing it.

There has to be a reson why the CEO of an investment firm was delayed getting to work on September 11, 2001. There has to be a reason that my ex-wife allowed me to borrow her car to get to work on March 12, 1998 (the day my dad died) when she hated me with every ounce of her being. (I was able to get there in minutes to take care of things, insead of almost an hour was I required to walk.) There has to be a reason why all of the things happened to everyone reading this who are subconsciously adding their own stories to my little rant. There is no way that coincidence is going to cover it.

To finish this off, the ONLY event I needed to prove to me that the Bible is filled with factual people, events, and such... was the morning I saw my daughter being born, and when I got to hold her less than 30 minutes later.

They took pictures of our dreams
Ran to hide behind the stairs
And said maybe when it's right for you, they'll fall

 
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