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Christians and Salvation

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Philmont
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0 posted 02-13-2005 10:45 PM       View Profile for Philmont   Email Philmont   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Philmont

After reading the responses in the logic thread and being satisfied with Brad's idea, I thougt it might be interesting to talk about the soul in a separate thread.  fractal007 and ~DreamChild~ were hashing it out for a while and it sort of bothered me.  

I wonder if the Christians around here can answer whether your religion can hold water if there is no such thing as a soul.  fractal007's a Christian and he seems to think it can, but I wonder why.  How can there be a heaven in Christianity without there being a soul?
Essorant
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1 posted 02-13-2005 11:20 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum8/HTML/000534.html
jbouder
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2 posted 02-14-2005 10:30 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Does Christianity hold water if disembodied consciousness after death differs from the Platonic conception of the soul?  Sure.  Christianity does not stand or fall on the doctrine of the soul - it stands or falls on the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I think we need to begin by defining our terms.  The concept of "soul" is abstract and can mean many different things to many different people (after all, since words are poor mediums for framing the invisible and spiritual, why should we be surprised to discover posthumously that reality differs from our living imagination?).

Jim
Denise
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3 posted 02-14-2005 10:54 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Amen, Jim!
Aenimal
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4 posted 02-14-2005 11:48 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

If a disembodied consciousness after death does not exist, how can one be ressurected, as the same person?
jbouder
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Okay.  Prove it doesn't exist.  As can be inferred from what I mentioned above, the resurrection provides evidence that some manner of consciousness (or potential consciousness) exists after death, or else there would be no person to resurrect in the first place.  At a minimum, the resurrection demonstrates that consciousness can be restored (assuming it was completely lost in the first place).

Whether consciousness is restored to it's bodily home or reconsistuted at one's resurrection from the dead is immaterial.  As is the question of "how" such a feat is accomplished.  If I'm wrong, please tell me why.

Jim
fractal007
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6 posted 02-14-2005 02:51 PM       View Profile for fractal007   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for fractal007

Philmont:

I believe that you are proceeding from the commonly held and false assumption that Christianity predicates the existence of a platonic soul, and that the existence of this entity is a must in order for Christian life to work out.  

I would not be afraid to claim that exactly the opposite is true.  The concept platonic soul throughout the history of Christinity has done far more harm than good.  Consider puritanical groups who hold that the only good things are spiritual - like the Bible or the Church - while everything else in all creation is in some way at best immoral and at worst irredeemably evil.  Thus, Christians are to close themselves off from this world -- "this world" meaning anything not holy and spiritual -- and lead the holy lives that should innevitably result.

I will allow the critics of Christianity to demonstrate - should they so choose - the flaws of holding such a belief.
Aenimal
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7 posted 02-14-2005 10:22 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
Okay.  Prove it doesn't exist.


I'm not out to prove or disprove whether the soul exists. The hypothetical question was if there is no such thing as a soul, does Christian view of ressurection/heaven hold water?

quote:
Christianity does not stand or fall on the doctrine of the soul - it stands or falls on the resurrection of Jesus Christ.


But it does.Resurrection of the same being, is dependant on their existing soul.How do you resurrect Jesus' dead body without his soul/spirit to animate it? Likewise, heaven depends on an incorporeal self, as our remains lay on earth. If Christianity is dependant on the resurrection, and resurrection is dependant on the existence of a soul, then Christianity does indeed, stand or fall on the existence of a soul.

To answer Philmont's initial question, if we assume there is no such thing as 'soul', then no, they would not hold water.

As we can't prove the existence either way, it's all hypothetical.
Ron
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8 posted 02-14-2005 11:08 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Resurrection of the same being, is dependant on their existing soul.

Yea, right. And Kirk wasn't really Kirk after Scottie beamed him aboard, because after all, the transporter used entirely different molecules to reassemble what it sucked out on the other end.

If you accept transporter technology, you accept that consciousness, like matter, can be torn apart and reassembled.

If you accept the limited reversal of entropy and resurrection from death, it seems a bit strange to quibble over whether the resurrected is the same person, either with or without a soul. Maybe the consciousness is recreated in the same manner it was created? Or, since time has little meaning in the face of omnipotence, maybe it is simply plucked from the micro-second prior to death? That would even, I think, make a passable definition of soul, i.e., that which leaves the body upon death and travels elsewhere (or elsewhen).

It's supernatural. By definition, you can't bind it to natural laws or logic.
Aenimal
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9 posted 02-15-2005 08:36 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

well, who said i accept transporter technology?    

and I never claimed my answer was the definitive lol i'm only offering an opinion based on hypotheticals that can't be proven or disproven.

but let me ask

you can also clone a being. as an exact molecular duplication, do you believe a clone has the same consciousness or 'soul' as the original? is it the same being?

and is heaven a physical or incorporeal place? as bodies remain and decay on earth, i assume that if heaven exists, and we exist in heaven, then the form would have to be an incorporeal one? but then i'm not sure how heaven works.

all hypotheticals
Essorant
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10 posted 02-15-2005 08:51 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Do you think the soul needs the sun to live?
What if the sun no longer sustains life someday on earth, but may only bear life on venus or on mars, shall that determine where the soul may live, and where heaven may be?   Or shall the soul, and heaven perhaps, still be on earth, no matter what the sun is doing?
Ron
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quote:
you can also clone a being. as an exact molecular duplication, do you believe a clone has the same consciousness or 'soul' as the original? is it the same being?

I wrote a short story once about a computer program that became sentient (the result of a magnet-induced mutation and two days of electronic evolution) and faced much the same questions. His conclusion was that replication was just a far more efficient form of reproduction. And, he noted to the heroine, without the pain of childbirth.

quote:
as bodies remain and decay on earth, i assume that if heaven exists, and we exist in heaven, then the form would have to be an incorporeal one?

If bodies are to be resurrected after hundreds and even thousands of years of death, to live for one thousand years on Earth, I think it's probably safe to assume your assumptions should be reevaluated.

Okay, seriously. Resurrection, almost by definition, is the reversal of entropy, if only perhaps localized. After reversing it, staying the course of entropy for a thousand years should be easy. Besides, in Genesis, just about everyone from Adam to Methuselah lived to be a ripe nine-hundred-plus years.
Essorant
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12 posted 02-15-2005 10:39 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I think the body is probably the "fleshy and physical" part of the body and soul, not just the body; and the soul is the "spiritual" part of the body and soul, not just the soul.  Just because the body and soul lose the flesh, doesn't mean there's no more a body and soul, it just means that the chief nature of the being  which, seems always both a body and a soul, becomes highly and chiefly spiritual, and therefore is referred to by the name that refers to the spiritual side of the body and soul, the "soul".  This is completly parallell with Spirit and Nature being always part of each other.  It may be that light and darkness have a similar relationship.  Everything may be part of the same spectrum, just graduating from different grades of that spectrum, and never being seperated from former or future "grades"  If there was no supernatual intervention by God or other beings, there probably would be no difference from just an evolutionary going, completly dependant on the behavior of the sun and temperature, and with only a few accidents.  Fortunatly though there is always supernatural intervention in men's lives, especially by women  
Aenimal
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13 posted 02-15-2005 11:04 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
If bodies are to be resurrected after hundreds and even thousands of years of death, to live for one thousand years on Earth, I think it's probably safe to assume your assumptions should be reevaluated.


well that's the thing, depends on the definition of heaven. does heaven exist now? real-time? or is it something that happens after judgement day?

if it exists now than i would think there's an incorporeal element at work. unless, it's on another plane which is also physical and the transporter theory is applicable...um..nevermind..my heads spinning

too many hypotheticals.  

i wouldn't say i'm right, but i wouldn't say im wrong either. guess we'll have to wait and see. if

i'm wrong i'll buy the drinks, provided there are drinks in heaven and that i'm allowed to visit you there grins
Ron
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14 posted 02-16-2005 12:23 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
if it exists now than i would think there's an incorporeal element at work. unless, it's on another plane which is also physical and the transporter theory is applicable...um..nevermind..my heads spinning

Does the past exist now, Raph? The future? Are "you" incorporeal all but the one indivisible, ever changing instant we call now?

If I lived in a completely two-dimensional world, say on the surface of a sheet of paper, what would I see if you tapped your finger onto my world? Assuming you didn't squash me (an obvious misnomer in a 2D world), I would see your finger tip appear, disappear, appear for each rhythmic tap. Would your finger be incorporeal except when I could see it? Extend that now to me living in a three-dimensional world and you moving through the fourth dimension of time; same thing.

For what it's worth, super string theory seems to suggest there are actually 11 dimensions at least at the sub-sub-sub-atomic level.
Essorant
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15 posted 02-16-2005 01:03 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"Does the past exist now, Raph? The future? Are "you" incorporeal all but the one indivisible, ever changing instant we call now?"

That's a good question.

I think the past and the future are the same matter just in different shapes.  We remember the old shape, but that shape is not seperated from us.  That old shape is become the new, including us! If the present was a "square", and is now a circle, the square didn't cease to exist, it just became a circle.  
Referring to "square" or "circle" is a distinction of shape, not a distinction of existance.  Everything exists, just not always in the same shape      


Omnia mutantur, nihil interit - Everything changes, nothing perishes.  - Ovid


Aenimal
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16 posted 02-16-2005 11:34 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
It's supernatural. By definition, you can't bind it to natural laws or logic.


quote:
For what it's worth, super string theory seems to suggest there are actually 11 dimensions at least at the sub-sub-sub-atomic level


Ah, but it can be bound to quantum theory/physics? grins.
Arnold M
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17 posted 04-17-2005 02:20 AM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Seems to me you are all searching for the truth, when it is right under your nose.

Who knows our frame, our makeup, except the One who created us, who reveals it through His Word.

Do you want to know about soul, life, death, the past, the present, and the future? Then study the Scriptures.

Adam (and all humans) each are a living soul.
A separate "soul" was not joined to a prepared body.  "God breathed the spirit of the breath of life into the formed body and he became a living soul." Gen.2:7.

Study all the verses regarding soul, and you
will gain a clearer understanding.  

You will find soul is the consciousness, the feelings, the desires produced by the breath
of life vitalizing the body.  

Animals are soul creatures because they can move independently and have blood. See Gen. 1:20,21,24,30; 2:19; 9:3,4,8-10, and 12, etc.

Many times man is called a "soul" in the scriptures.  Even today we hear the expression, "Oh, that poor soul."

Gen.12:5...Abram took his wife...and the souls they had gotten in Haran.
Acts 2:41...and the same day there were added unto them, about three thousand souls.
Acts 2:43...And fear came upon every soul..

Is the soul said to die or be killed?
Of course. Here are a few verses:

Num.23:10.."Let my soul die the death of the righteous."
Josh.11:11.."They smite all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them."
Judges 16:30.."And Sampson said, let my soul die with the Philistines."

Often the translators use "life" for "soul".

The RSV, and perhaps other translations, use
"being" instead of "soul", thus, "man became a living being."

Please, check this out. Use a concordance.

Bick

Essorant
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18 posted 04-17-2005 10:10 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Arnold,

Some are come to further beliefs, or simply further ways of referring to things, than what the bible says though.
People associate the distinction of the spiritual part of our soul (OR body) as "soul" and the physical part of our soul (Or body) as "body"   I don't think that is in disagreement with the bible.  We are still one soul/body, but we distinguish two conditions and use the two names that we have for the whole, to refer respectively to these conditions.  Just like the universe is still "one" universe but we distinguish a rock from a cloud.  Doesn't mean a rock and a cloud are universally seperate and not still the same universe.  But we are bound distinguish one from the other.
Arnold M
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19 posted 07-23-2005 08:48 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Ess: I know that mankind have been debating this subject for millenniums, but to what conclusion?  There are many views; surely there must be the truth revealed somewhere.
Are there no writings inspired by our Creator who knows our very being: body, soul and spirit?

Arnold
Essorant
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20 posted 07-23-2005 10:04 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Arnold
The whole universe is "written" by our Creator.  What may possibly be a better "writing" than that?

  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (07-24-2005 06:39 PM).]

Stephanos
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21 posted 07-25-2005 07:41 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Essorant,

Don't make the same mistake as the Hindus, in deifying the creation.  Why is it a mistake?  Because of a failure to take into  account that creation is fallen.  Nature teaches us much about God's will, but it teaches us much about rebellion and perversion too.  Newborns at their mother's breast, and harmful parasites both work off of the same principle.  Nature has a dark and foreboding side, as well as a loving side.  So somewhere in all the mixture, in this vast "knowledge of good and evil", we need a more clear, more definite revelation of truth.  That's where the Bible (and the history permeating it) comes in.


Why else do you think the Hindus worship "Kali", the divine mother, who has feral fangs and writhing snakes about her head?  Because in Hinduism, nature is supreme, with no means by which to qualify goodness over evil, purpose over meaninglessness, or non-cruelty over cruelty.


So nature is a defaced beauty.  A masterpiece fallen in the mud.  My own heart tells me so, that's one poignant way I can see that the "Fall" of the Bible, is a true revelation about the way things are.


Stephen.
JesusChristPose
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22 posted 07-28-2005 09:58 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

The bible says that a person "became" a living soul... not something a person "has."

Of course, the mainstream christians would quote their famous learned fathers and other modern day chrisitan writers (like at least one whom is quoted ad nauseum) prove otherwise.  

Like a child, without any interference from any human being, from any carnal mind...

"... and man became a living soul."

Sounds like a man is a soul and doesn't have one.

Essorant
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23 posted 07-31-2005 12:40 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"creation is fallen."


It is not heaven, earth, beasts, birds, ants, trees, rocks, air, water, or the rest of creation that disobeys God, or that is the fallen creation;  But it is man that disobeys, and is man that is the fallen creation after his wrong choice.  Man has the choice to do only better or worse, and therefore does worse sometimes, and never does best.  Other things however, don't have that choice: they are as pure as God set them into the universe.   Just as angels are pure ghosts, animals are pure creatures.  And so is the rest of the universe a pure creation, until we come to the part known as: Man.    
Essorant
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24 posted 07-31-2005 12:48 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"The bible says that a person "became" a living soul... not something a person "has.""


That may be true; but the bible is only one chapter of the universe.  What do the other chapters say?
 
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