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Passions in Poetry

Logic as a Universal for Discourse

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Philmont
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0 posted 02-12-2005 12:59 AM       View Profile for Philmont   Email Philmont   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Philmont

I don't often post here, but I thought I might now that a pressing issue pertaining to philosophy has finally come up in my life.  

Someone recently told me that logic is not the only way to engage in discourse - that many a good debate is won through ad hominem or emotional appeal.  

But if this is the case, how can we really go about knowing anything for certain if it can be debunked by some form of thinking other than logic?  What's the point of doing philosophy or anything else if you don't have logic?
Christopher
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1 posted 02-12-2005 01:13 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

emotional appeal is logic - just a different form from what is standardly recognized as such. you do pose an interesting question, however.

egowhores.com - really love yourself.

littlewing
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2 posted 02-12-2005 09:41 AM       View Profile for littlewing   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for littlewing

Thinking of a critical thinking course I was forced to take, although it turned out to be a good course, anyhow . . .

All we did in that course was argue, and I do have to admit, the arguments based on emotion alone just did not stack up to the arguments based on fact and reason. As a matter of fact, the people who argued quite emotionally were discredited logically.

fractal007
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3 posted 02-12-2005 10:57 AM       View Profile for fractal007   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for fractal007

Hm...  

I don't think I agree with the statement that emotional appeal is a different kind of logic.  That's a bit stretching it.  What I think we're discussing here is simple logic - ie arriving by means of of some form of reasoning (deductive perhaps) at a conclusion.  That said I don't think that everyone will necessarily arrive at the same conclusion using that method.  

As for logic being needed for things like philosophy, I think I would agree with that.  The few books of philosophy that I have read always seem to rely on the use of reasoning.  

But remember, Philmont, that not everyone will have the same presuppositions, and so, by means of logic everyone may arrive at its own conclusions given a set of facts.

Any idiot can see that the result is true.
-- argumentum ad idiotum
Me!

Essorant
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4 posted 02-12-2005 01:56 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Whenas learners lack true love
Lore is little wisdom of;
And when lovers lack true lore
love nis wisdom any more.
For learners must true lovers be
And lovers true learners to see.
Brad
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5 posted 02-12-2005 02:52 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

An emotional appeal is not logic, it's not even a kind of logic.

It can be persuasive, however.

An emotional appeal can never win a debate if the debate is based on logical tools. It can, however, win the debate over popular opinion.

There are no magic keys to persuading people that you're right. There are tools. Use what you've got.

~DreamChild~
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6 posted 02-12-2005 04:44 PM       View Profile for ~DreamChild~   Email ~DreamChild~   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ~DreamChild~

_Merriam Webster_


Main Entry: 1faith

1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
synonym see BELIEF


Main Entry: log·ic

1 a (1) : a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning (2) : a branch or variety of logic (3) : a branch of semiotic; especially : SYNTACTICS (4) : the formal principles of a branch of knowledge b (1) : a particular mode of reasoning viewed as valid or faulty (2) : RELEVANCE, PROPRIETY c : interrelation or sequence of facts or events when seen as inevitable or predictable d : the arrangement of circuit elements (as in a computer) needed for computation; also : the circuits themselves
2 : something that forces a decision apart from or in opposition to reason


... faith and logic sound like exact opposites to me. ( like science and religion... they will never agree )

that's because logic is something that the world understands, but faith, the world cannot understand.

faith is of one's spirit, and one's spirit is not of this world, but an unseen world.  and logic does not matter to one's spirit, because it is not bound by the laws and rules of natural existence.

if god and souls and angels and demons and religions are all spiritual things, then wouldn't seem illogical to try to understand them logically?

that's why it is so hard for people to believe in god in this age. science says " logic, nature, tests, proof" and by that very science, does man become his own god,
which is a blissful ideah to one without faith, without spirit, who is a slave to this brief, carnal existence, but will not live forever.

their spirit is never born on this earth, and never lives after the body is gone.

faith calls out: believe in something.
hope for something better than what this world of flesh has to offer.

and logic tells me to answer that call for hope, because 70 yrs on earth will not compare to eternity after death.

time masters all things, but spirit.

fractal007
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7 posted 02-12-2005 08:29 PM       View Profile for fractal007   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for fractal007

DreamChild:

I would like to respond to some of your claims here.  Firstly, you attempt to create a dichotomy between faith and logic.  Indeed, you are justified in doing so.  Faith and logic are indeed two separate things.  That said, let's look at how they are related.  

Can you demonstrate that logic will always enable you to arrive at the truth (whatever that might be) of a given matter?  Would it be fallacious to demonstrate that it can by means of logic?  

I ask you this because of a part of your definition of faith -- "firm belief in something for which there is no proof."  

I think that I like Brad's take on logic -- that it's a good tool to use in argument/discourse/whatever.

Next, I'd like to address your concept of the separation between logic and faith.  

QUOTE:
faith is of one's spirit, and one's spirit is not of this world, but an unseen world.


How do you arrive at the conclusion that faith is of one's spirit?  Can you demonstrate the existence of spirit - much less that it is "not of this world" as you say?  If you cannot demonstrate its existence then how are you warranted in claiming that it exists?  Do you have faith that your spirit/soul does exist and that it is distinct from "this world?"  If so, what is the place of that faith?  Perhaps it belongs outside of this world as well?  This sounds to me like a convenient way of getting away from having to prove the existence of a soul, or of any other metaphysical thing you might believe in.  

But I could be wrong about your beliefs.  After all, you go on to say that people of this generation have a difficult time believing in God, or having any faith.  Maybe you fall into that latter camp, in which case you have fallen away from the otherworldly half of your picture of existence and chosen to dwell only in your this-worldly part, in which case belief and faith would be as much a part of our existence as anything else.

The next question I want to discuss is whether spiritual things (as you call such things as faith) should or could be subject to logic.  I would not be afraid to bet that most debates centering on matters of holy texts (especially think of the Bible here) would feature more than a little use of logic (and of course Philmont's emotional appeal ).  Furthermore, if you had a decision to make in your life, such as "should I marry so-and-so" or "should I have an abortion" how would this decision be made if portions of it resided in your otherworldly realm of faith and others in this world of logic?  How would you come to a decision if the logical realm and the spiritual realm of your thinking came to two different conclusions?

Just some things to think about.....

Any idiot can see that the result is true.
-- argumentum ad idiotum
Me!

Philmont
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8 posted 02-12-2005 08:38 PM       View Profile for Philmont   Email Philmont   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Philmont

QUOTE:
emotional appeal is logic - just a different form from what is standardly recognized as such.

Yeah, but if that's true then how can we ever arrive at any sort of truth.  If all methods of arriving at conclusions are equally valid then everything is equally right and equally wrong.  For example, me resorting to violence and killing those who don't agree with me would be just another kind of logic.
~DreamChild~
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9 posted 02-13-2005 07:12 PM       View Profile for ~DreamChild~   Email ~DreamChild~   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ~DreamChild~

"Can you demonstrate that logic will always enable you to arrive at the truth (whatever that might be) of a given matter?"  

No.

"Would it be fallacious to demonstrate that it can by means of logic?"

Not necessarily.

" _faith -- 'firm belief in something for which there is no proof.' "  

" _logic -- that it's a good tool to use in argument/discourse/whatever"

secure faith knows it cannot prove anything.
it just believes it to be so.

"How do you arrive at the conclusion that faith is of one's spirit?"

I derived that from the bible.

"Can you demonstrate the existence of spirit - much less that it is "not of this world" as you say?"

possibly, but not at whim.

"Do you have faith that your spirit/soul does exist and that it is distinct from 'this world?' "

yes

"If so, what is the place of that faith?"

the place of that faith is the spirit, and by the spirit i have faith, faith is the the evidence of spirit.

"Perhaps it belongs outside of this world as well?"

yes

"This sounds to me like a convenient way of getting away from having to prove the existence of a soul, or of any other metaphysical thing you might believe in."


If I could prove it I would, but i know that i cannot explain spirituality logically, ever, so why bother?  but i will say that unbelievers and faithless people will alway use logic to justify their unbelief.ALWAYS.

"How would you come to a decision if the logical realm and the spiritual realm of your thinking came to two different conclusions?"


Hopefully i would walk by faith, follow the things of the spirit, not the carnal mind, which is gods enemy. this is explained in the bible.
fractal007
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10 posted 02-13-2005 07:35 PM       View Profile for fractal007   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for fractal007

QUOTE:
Not necessarily.


But if one demonstrated by means of logic that logic will always enable one to arrive at the truth then one would beg the question, just as derriving claims from the Bible without any basis for trusting the Bible aside from your faith does.

QUOTE:
"How do you arrive at the conclusion that faith is of one's spirit?"

I derived that from the bible.


Granted, you could here insert your faith/logic spirit/this-world dichotomy again.  But I am not totally convinced that even Biblically that holds water.  

Can you demonstrate that the Bible uses the term spirit/soul in the dualistic sense you  suppose?

Some complications that could arrise here might be:

  • That the Bible uses the words spirit and soul interchangeably.

  • That the words often used for soul / spirit suggest the self, rather than some metaphysical unworldly entity.

  • That God created the world, including what you might term the earthly non-spiritual realm.  What is the role of that realm?  How do you regard the soul as opposed to the body?  Is one more important than the other?  Are they equally important?



I think there are other, not necessarily Biblical complications here as well.  For example, where does the soul end and the body begin?  Would you consider emotions to be matters of the soul?  If so, then how does what's going on spiritually relate to what is happening neurologically during something like a bout of severe pathological depression in which the brain suffers from a chemical imballance?  What about reasoning itself?  Where does it belong?  More fundamentally, in which realm does mind itself belong?

QUOTE:
Hopefully i would walk by faith, follow the things of the spirit, not the carnal mind, which is gods enemy. this is explained in the bible.


If it is God's enemy then why, Biblically, did God create everything that exists?  

Any idiot can see that the result is true.
-- argumentum ad idiotum
Me!

~DreamChild~
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11 posted 02-13-2005 08:53 PM       View Profile for ~DreamChild~   Email ~DreamChild~   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ~DreamChild~

I will not argue. I'm no scientist, nor historian, nor linguist, nor bible expert.

But by reading the bible one learns of faith, and of spirit, and it is clearly stated that spirituality and carnality are opposites.. The bible even tells about people who will not believe, because of logic. spirituality is foolish to carnal minded people who will not believe what their senses cant identify.

as for gods purpose, creating humanity in flesh and blood, it is a mystery. logic will not explain god and his ways.

but i do know that the bible says that our bodies will die, and just like a grain, produce new life afterward. this was precedented by jesus, who was firstfruit of many brothers, and confirmed by paul, an apostle.

so what god created is not yet come in full, but merely the seed of it was planted.  

Jesus said: " The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which god hid in the earth. when it is full grown, the birds of the air will nest in its branches. "

spirituality is much more mysterious, and much more fulfilling than is simply logic.
i'd rather stand in awe of gods revelation that cant be logically understood, than analyze a limited existence with limited knowledge.

fractal007
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12 posted 02-13-2005 10:38 PM       View Profile for fractal007   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for fractal007

QUOTE:
as for gods purpose, creating humanity in flesh and blood, it is a mystery. logic will not explain god and his ways.


I'm not seeking to explain God and his ways logically.  Rather, I am hoping to challenge this dualism you as espousing.  I do not think that mystery is sufficient an answer to this question, when the Bible specifically says, after the final day of God's creative work - namely the creation of humanity - that "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good"(Genesis 1:28).

As for needing to be a scholar or linguist or scientist I consider myself to be none of these (though I think that my undergraduate training in computer science puts me closest to falling under that last category).  However, a cursory reading of arguments made by such people can be helpful to us laypeople as much as a formal training in such matters.

But if you do not feel like debating this issue further then perhaps I should respect your wishes.  I will just give you something to ponder.  

The fall of humanity as described in the Bible means that sin effects EVERY part of creation.  There is nothing that is purely carnal just as there is nothing that is purely good.  

Any idiot can see that the result is true.
-- argumentum ad idiotum
Me!

~DreamChild~
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13 posted 02-16-2005 09:42 PM       View Profile for ~DreamChild~   Email ~DreamChild~   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ~DreamChild~

fractal,

i am persuaded that...

man is a triune being, body, soul, and spirit, and that is the likeness of the creator, not flesh and blood.

when god created mans body from the earth, he breathed LIFE into him. the Life he breathed into him made man a living soul, and this LIFE is eternal, because man was created as an eternal being.

when man succumbed to temptation and commited sin by disobedience to gods only commandment, god punished him with death, which for the time was only in the flesh,
so the body died, but the eternal life still existed, trapped in the earth, like imprisonment for mans crime.

should man continue to live eternally, we would be just as they are, Yahweh, The Trinity. so it is written.

a mans spirit is a persons godly identity,
the essence of him that relates to god, and the supernatural.

god was pleased with the creature he fashioned , indeed. what a marvelous work it is after all.

but man drew away from god, and became independant of him. eventually god was grieved by his creation that betrayed him.

the spirit of man has become numb, and dumb because of generations and generations of worldly men and women with no love for god,
and a will of their own, a will limited by the confinement in the flesh , and to the earth, and so much so, it is impossible for man to even hear from his god anymore, much less see him, who is a spirit.

and so to be repentant of heart is to have faith and believe in something good, something greater than anything this world has to offer, that is god, and eternity, and wholeness, once again.

in this, one is born of the spirit. as it is written what jesus spoke. "unless one is born of water and the spirit, he shall not share in the kingdom of god."

jesus teachings are " spirit and they are life" as he so said. so if we believe these teachings of him, then we shall be saved from our sins, from this sinful existance of worldly flesh, and from being imprisoned in grief, madness and pain forever.

jesus teachings give us an example of perfection, which is impossible of man, becaue of the sin of adam.

but in believing his teachings, we hope for something and strive for it, and that makes us a "light for all the world."

when we focus on jesus teachings instead of our sins we become better people; our spirits become healthier, and we relate to god again, thus trading our worldly lusts, pleasures and treasures for something pure, and holy, which he unveils in us as we advance in faith, and understanding ( that is of spiritual matters.)

in this "sanctification" process, our
worldly selves die, just as jesus died to this world. but our spirits revive, just as jesus was first resurrected from the dead.

is this not the work of a masterful creator.

"fear ( awe and wonder and humility, )  of the lord is the beginning of wisdom."

ultimately, man is one, just in 3d, soul is one's life, spirit is one's eternal person that will eternally exist in heaven or hell , but the fleshly dimension will be done away with, because of it's weakness.
Brad
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14 posted 02-16-2005 11:00 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
spirituality is much more mysterious, and much more fulfilling than is simply logic.
i'd rather stand in awe of gods revelation that cant be logically understood, than analyze a limited existence with limited knowledge.


Logic ain't simple. It ain't 'mere' neither.

Logic and awe aren't in contradiction, not even in opposition. You can have both.

A mystery, of course, can never be fulfilling.

Um, I forget the word right now, but isn't this another version of the Gnostic Heresy:

Spiritual: Good

Material: Bad

??

  


~DreamChild~
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15 posted 02-16-2005 11:38 PM       View Profile for ~DreamChild~   Email ~DreamChild~   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ~DreamChild~

Spiritually minded under God: Good

Carnally minded under materialism: Bad

and so says the bible, plain and clear. no heresy there.

Logic is simple in its purest form, 2+2(1+1+1+1) = 4.

why must man complicate things so, just because we think we have knowledge. Paul wrote in the bible, " If any one of you thinks you know something, you know naught what you ought to know. "


it is the mystery that seeks one to investigate, then he gathers evidence and is convinced. ah yes, the mystery is indeed more deserving of the description inspirational.
jbouder
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Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


16 posted 02-17-2005 08:54 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

quote:
Um, I forget the word right now, but isn't this another version of the Gnostic Heresy


Manichaeanism.
Essorant
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17 posted 02-17-2005 11:04 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"A better burden may no man bear
For wanderings wide than wisdom"

Havamal
 
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