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Passions in Poetry

Kill v. Murder

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Stephanos
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100 posted 04-25-2006 05:13 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Knubian:
quote:
Therefore, would these individuals willingly to commit suicide be considered the hungry and simple hearted, illuminated by these parables?   Or would they be the rebellious heart, twisting the words of the parables through their constant misunderstanding? ...

We can’t re-write the seasons, interpose Gods Law beyond our own individual heart and mind, or create a soul, and believing that we can becomes somewhat satanic in nature… the forbidden knowledge that will destroy us all.


I'm really not sure what you're asking or implying.  Suicide in Judaism (and especially in early Christianity) was considered to be self murder.  Jesus taught that flight from danger is not necessarily sin, and sometimes the best thing to do. (see Matthew 24:16-21).  But he also taught that when flight or escape is impossible, that we should do our best not to fear those who have power to kill the body, but cannot do harm to the soul.  In other words, martyrdom is a real possibility, and only a heavenly perspective can offer hope at such a time.  (see Matthew 10:28).  I guess other than the general teachings I've just mentioned (which Jesus did not teach in parables, BTW), I'm not sure how you're relating the people you've just described to the Parables of Jesus.    


God's law is already "interposed" in many ways, in a universal fashion.  And merely stating what is declared in scripture, amounts to teaching what is revealed ... not necessarily in "judging" or being pharisaical.  However, if someone says "I won't even try to explain truth to you, since you wouldn't get it, you're not chosen", THAT would be very pharisaical.  And that is mainly the attitude I'm addressing.  


Stephen.
Knubian
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since 03-25-2006
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101 posted 04-27-2006 03:53 AM       View Profile for Knubian   Email Knubian   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Knubian's Home Page   View IP for Knubian

Quote:
Stephanos
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
However, if someone says "I won't even try to explain truth to you, since you wouldn't get it, you're not chosen", THAT would be very pharisaical. And that is mainly the attitude I'm addressing.
____________________________________________________________________

I can agree with you whole-heartedly on that… how are any of us to know whom is chosen and whom is not.  Most of what we are saying, “without being a directly quoted sources such as the bible,“ are really just extensions of personal opinions and philosophical view points of the knowledge we hold, or should wish to gain through questioning and debate.

The bible has many passages that causes man the struggle for and against the same principle(s) and issue(s) at the same time within and outside one's self.  It’s amazing how we can internalize our individual truths as the ultimate truth of the world, where someone else's lacks merit or substance until a certain knowledge is gained.  To change an individuals mind about many subjects, particularly religion, goes beyond the capacity of words and more into the realm of the meeting of spirits.

Quote:
Stephanos
__________________________________________________________________
Jesus taught that flight from danger is not necessarily sin, and sometimes the best thing to do. (see Matthew 24:16-21). ______________________________________________________________________

This was kind of my point.  If we look at things in a way, particularly in 62 AD, we manufacture the assumption in our minds, that these would be the individuals that are the hungry and simple hearted, illuminated by these parables…;  

2-Quote:
Stephanos
__________________________________________________________________
But he also taught that when flight or escape is impossible, that we should do our best not to fear those who have power to kill the body, but cannot do harm to the soul.
______________________________________________________________________

What I mean is… these people on Maseda are sometimes the Christ-followers we sometimes defend, but I find myself grappling with a defense of martyrdom -V- suicide… extended to out right murder.  And what I don’t know is, are these the same individuals that truly understood the teachings of Christ’s and left Jerusalem in the first place to avoid murder and chaos in and about 62-63 AD?  But more so than asking a question or wanting to debate, I was rather looking for a different perspective, angle… point of view?  

As I think more into your second quote I think more into what we understand, or understood, or may have been taught of Judas’s lack of understanding that Christ’s sword was in-fact “righteousness, and not war.”  I mean… as we stand today, it seems we are just a grander scale those individuals on Maseda…, or wandering in the wilderness with Moses… and we're getting nowhere fast!

Seeing what little knowledge I have from a different set of eyes with more or less knowledge, better help me to be understand my own perspective of why my philosophy is my philosophy on the subject.      

Regards,
Knubian

Stephanos
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102 posted 04-27-2006 04:37 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Knubian:
quote:
but I find myself grappling with a defense of martyrdom -V- suicide… extended to out right murder.


I think we already covered this pretty well in another thread:
http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum8/HTML/000651.html

The actions of a murderer need defense.  The death of a martyr doesn't.  He is not blameworthy, since he is not seeking or choosing death.  Rather, death is being forced upon him with the only way of escape being the dishonor and denial of God (which he feels is more important than mere temporal life).  And as far as suicide goes, martyrdom is a polar opposite.  As G.K. Chesterton said, martyrdom and suicide fall in that class of things which are perhaps superficially alike, but fundamentally different ... as different as different can be.

As far as the other, I guess I still don't understand what you are confused about.  Jesus warned about the coming destruction of Jerusalem (which was apostate and had rejected God) by the Romans.  His instructions were to flee if at all possible.  He also warned about coming persecution for being a Christian at all.  Both of these prophetic utterances were fulfilled.  Physical life may be lawfully sought and preserved, but it is not guaranteed.  Devotion to God and Christ is the most important thing in life or death.  

So what makes you think that the people you described were Christians?  The earliest Christianity which was essentially a Jewish phenomenon, represented only a smattering of the Jews.  So what makes you think that the people who listened to Jesus, and heard his discourses about the coming destruction didn't actually flee and escape to safety?  After that period, it is obvious that Christianity flourished in Rome until the times of Roman persecution came.  


Stephen.

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (04-27-2006 08:45 PM).]

JesusChristPose
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since 06-21-2005
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103 posted 04-30-2006 08:22 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Yes, it is easy to call those of a faith in which we agree with, who give their lives for their God, martyrs, yet if a group of people commit martyrdom for a God we cannot understand and believe to be false, we label them as suicidal maniacs.

~ For example, those "terrorists" of 911. Were they martyrs for their God or suicidal bombers? You all tell me.


"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

JesusChristPose
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104 posted 04-30-2006 08:25 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Now, back to the original subject matter. The Bible clearly states that thou shalt not KILL. If it were murder, then murder would of been the original word used in translation.

However, it recent times, and due to embarassment of mainstream christian churches that condone killing in the name of their God, the movement for calling it "murder" has gained ground.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

jbouder
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since 09-18-99
Posts 2641
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


105 posted 05-03-2006 01:18 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

JCP:

See my post #16.  I don't believe you ever addressed it.

One human being killing another human being is always sin.  One human being killing another human being is not always illegal (either today or in Moses' time).

It's an important distinction.  Don't you think?

Jim
 
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