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Kill v. Murder

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Ron
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75 posted 04-08-2006 06:33 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
... by that measure, punitive death may still represent justice in most cultures ... including our own.

For the sake of accuracy, Stephen, that should probably be "at least within our own." There are relatively few civilized countries, aside from the U.S., that still condone capital punishment.
Stephanos
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76 posted 04-08-2006 10:10 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Ron,

I would disagree if philosophy of war is taken into account... That would leave no known civilized culture that didn't recognize the (sometimes) appropriateness of retribution.

Stephen.
Essorant
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77 posted 04-09-2006 02:18 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Stephanos,

What you are are talking about is REVENGE, not justice.

Revenge is about "getting back" and "getting even" by aligning oneself to the same wrong and method that one were wronged by, to wrong the person that did that, and feel and make it out as "right"  

"An eye for an eye" "A tooth for a tooth",
"A life for a life"

That just shows how far the bible is from Democracy.

It is revenge, not justice.   It is doing what is wrong for what is wrong, not what is right.

Local Rebel
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78 posted 04-09-2006 02:46 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

While I won't argue Ess that the Bible isn't anti-democracy (go back and read through Moses striking down an attempt at democracy) -- how crime and punishment are effectively carried out are decisions that any and every democracy must make -- if it is the will of the people to chop off hands of thieves and murder murderers -- that's democratic.

Not highly civilized -- but, democratic nonetheless.
Essorant
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79 posted 04-09-2006 03:51 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"if it is the will of the people to chop off hands of thieves and murder murderers -- that's democratic."

I don't agree with you, Local Rebel.
I think Democracy itself is a manner of civilization.   There is rightly no such question in our democractic government as: "should theives hands be cut off"   That's because democracy progressed in a civilized way and retains its civilization along the way with foundations, laws, processes that secure it so it may be furthered as civilization.   Thus, there is far more that determines democracy than the "will" of any present population.  The will also must respect what is already established so far as well.

Local Rebel
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80 posted 04-09-2006 04:21 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

We do that through establishing constitutions Ess.. not that that's the only way -- but, it's the way it's been done in most places.   Other's may wish to use a theocratic principle like a Bible or Koran.

In either event -- it is the people who establish that standard.  In the US the standard is 'no cruel or unusual punishment' -- and it is left to the States and the Supreme Court to determine what is or isn't cruel or unusual.  It will always be a matter of community standard that will be reflected in our interpretation of the Constitution and application of law and punishment.

Certainly -- it is within the realm of the people to demand a Constitutional amendment to outlaw capital punishment -- we haven't.
Essorant
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81 posted 04-09-2006 06:10 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"it is left to the States and the Supreme Court to determine what is or isn't cruel or unusual."


It is already known what is cruel and unusual.  There is a firm evidence with life and the human body.  When someone harms life it is harmed. When someone tortures it, it is tortured.  When someone neglects it, it is neglected.  When someone murders it, it is murdered.  And the more someone does it, the more it is done in the world.   There is no question what is cruel and unusual.  The only question is to what  extent that terminology should be applied to less harsh evidence of maltreatment, torture or neglect.  No judge decides if cruel and unusual punishments are "wrong" or "right"  They are never right.  But he needs to decide on a rightful way of dealing justice.  That is not because it is a question that a person deserves correction or punishment that is guilty, but because correction and punishment should be adjusted to only the best standards of hope and protection for all life, both for those that are free and those that are punished.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (04-09-2006 07:11 PM).]

Local Rebel
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82 posted 04-09-2006 07:47 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

There is little agreement throughout the world what cruel and unusual is Ess.  There isn't even a consensus in the United States as to what constitutes torture.

When the Constitution of the United States was drafted -- it was a democratic process -- the community standards allowed for slavery, hanging, public stocks, flogging, dunking, humiliation, incarceration, firing squads, and even burning at the stake.  Over the past two and a half centuries we've evolved the current standards that we have -- but we've gone through some rather turbulent gyrations to get here -- and still -- our system allows the electric chair, firing squads, and lethal injections to be administered as 'humane'.

A system with any type of moral standard -- whether it involves a vision of superior and inferior races and is bent on global domination and genocide - can be 'democratic' -- and many democracies throughout the world are today even not in step with what the major powers would consider to be moral.

You're conflating morality and democracy. You're the wordmaster -- look them up!
Essorant
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83 posted 04-10-2006 01:50 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"You're conflating morality and democracy"

That's really my whole point.
It is "conflating" morality and democracy that makes both morality and democracy more moral and more democratic. Democracy and morality are both more moral and more democratic today than they were formerly, and are elsewheres.  We know better and more civilized punishment, in giving hope and protection and rehabilitation to those that did wrong.  That's far different from: "eye for an eye" "tooth for a tooth" "life for a life"   Of course, I'm not trying to say Democracy is perfect.  But I am saying it is far better than that.


Stephanos
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84 posted 04-10-2006 04:47 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
"An eye for an eye", "A tooth for a tooth", "A life for a life" ... That just shows how far the bible is from Democracy.


As Local Reb said, democracy or not, is not the issue.  Democracy is merely a form of Government.  The will of the people may be moral or immoral, for good or for ill.  So the Bible, or Christians who uphold the Bible's moral and spiritual standards, have no obligation or desire to apologetically try to harmonize it's history with modern democratic ideals.  Differing forms of Government were expressed throughout the Bible, which makes forms of government, though not unimportant, a secondary consideration.  And aside from that, I'm certainly skeptical of the view that democracy is a fix-all, almost heavenly form of government.  Have you ever heard of the tyranny of the 51% vote?  Majority doesn't mean moral, right, or beautiful.  Also, this country is just a little over 200 years old.  American-style democracy has not been tested, as far as longevity is concerned.


Oh, and about the "eye for an eye" standard for the Israelites.  You need to really study the Ancient Near East culture surrounding these Semites, during that time.  This was definitely a mitigating standard, something put in place to keep in check the all-too-human desire to take two eyes for an eye, or 5 teeth for a tooth, or a life for a hand.  It was there to establish the baseline of justice, in a world where punishment usually went far beyond justice in severity.  This was a smooth diamond among the sharp rocks of ancient brutality, as strange as that may sound.  


quote:
It is revenge, not justice.   It is doing what is wrong for what is wrong, not what is right.



Actually revenge is more within the realm of personal vigilanteism.  The "eye for an eye" principle was a form given to the civil government, as mediators in a criminal situation.  Regardless of whether you believe this form is justifiable or not, it is not merely revenge.  


Though civil punishments that lean heavily on the concept of unmitigated justice, have principles which give them credence (such as the fact that consistent punishment can serve to renew social bonds, commitments to standards, and deter others from doing the same crimes), I too recognize the necessity for going beyond mere justice.  Even Jesus said "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'  But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:38-39).  This higher and better standard is given first of all to the pious community of believers (the Church), and to the individuals which comprise it.  


So don't misunderstand me Essorant, in thinking that I'm disagreeing with you completely.  I think the standard of Christ is a much better one than the old "eye for an eye" one.  We need to go beyond mere justice, to a just kind of mercy.  


Where I differ from you, I suppose, is in thinking that the "eye for an eye" standard doesn't represent justice.  I think it does.  But for sinners, such as ourselves, justice isn't always the desirable path.  Justice is a double edged sword, which sends some men to prison and death, and gives other men rewards.  Justice is based on performance.  


The Biblical view of things, tells us that God gives nations "The power of the sword", primarily because they are the nations of this world, and are strangers (like the Jews of the Mosaic covenant were) to the covenant of grace.  How else is the world going to deal with hardened criminals, murderers, rapists, child molesters, etc ...?  They have to do such things, to keep the common peace and order.  The "eye for an eye" standard is not only prescriptive, but descriptive.  It is simply what happens in a twisted, corrupted, and sinful world.  


God therefore desires men to come to his covenant of grace, to find forgiveness and be transformed spiritually and morally.  But the reason that his justice (through Law) remains, is that men will not be able to bypass the covenant of grace and still receive mercy.  If mercy is not obtained through Christ, then God's justice still remains with it's brandished sword.  It is truth played in a minor key.  It is a legal echo of the glorious voice of God against sin and wickedness.  Echoes are distorted, and doleful songs aren't always the best ones.  So in one very imporant sense, Essorant, I totally agree with you.  I see that you see the necessity of something better than undiluted justice.  But you should be careful not to conflate justice and mercy.  


The Old Testament was also primarily a revelation of God's justice to the jews.  They were given a legal system by which to approach him.  One very important function of this, was to show the powerlessness of law to change things inwardly.  Literally to convince the jews that there should be something better ... that indeed something or someone was coming which embodied the messianic hope and mercy.  So if the idea of strict justice seems to frustate you when you imagine it coming from God, you can rest assured that the Bible too, shows this as a dispensational revelation, not the full expression of who God is.  There is the necessity of justice with God toward sin, but it is not the best and brightest way that God relates to us as his children.  Moses saw the "hinder parts of God", but in the Gospel we see the face of Christ, where the legal veil is taken away.  There mercy can reign because justice was met in the person of Christ on the cross.


So bloody messy justice is only half the story.  Friday, with the sun eclipsed and Jews and Gentiles both guilty, gives way to Sunday morning with an empty tomb and a trembling hope.  Ultimately that's the kind of world we live in.  


Stephen.          
Local Rebel
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85 posted 04-10-2006 05:12 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Oh, and about the "eye for an eye" standard for the Israelites.  You need to really study the Ancient Near East culture surrounding these Semites, during that time.  This was definitely a mitigating standard, something put in place to keep in check the all-too-human desire to take two eyes for an eye, or 5 teeth for a tooth, or a life for a hand.  It was there to establish the baseline of justice, in a world where punishment usually went far beyond justice in severity.  This was a smooth diamond among the sharp rocks of ancient brutality, as strange as that may sound.  



Someone better check the weather forecast in Hell because I think they're passing out coats and ear muffs.

I think this is perfectly correct -- but, that it doesn't go far enough.  Proper reading of the germane scriptures, in context, I believe would reveal that the Bible 'allows' an eye for an eye -- but doesn't demand it.  

Mercy was an option too.
Stephanos
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86 posted 04-10-2006 05:43 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

LR,

You're absolutely right.  It is human nature that often won't allow it.  I'm merely saying that the Old Testament, in general, held justice in centrality and mercy as a periphery.  For whatever reason, one had to be fully comprehended before the other could be fully appreciated.  The New Testament definitely puts mercy at the center.  


I appreciate, but I'm not sure I understand your humor.  Why do you say that Hell froze over?  Something I said?


Stephen.
Local Rebel
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87 posted 04-10-2006 10:41 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

nope.. just that I was agreeing with you!
JesusChristPose
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88 posted 04-10-2006 11:25 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"If religious leaders are not to be trusted merely because of their position and schooling, then much less are they to be vilified for it."

~ The Bible teaches me that it is all about a 3-fold of prophecy. The OT, the NT, and our time. During the NT time, Jesus let it be known that the religious majority was missing it. So today, are the religious majority... missing it, which most certainly includes all of the great majority leaders, such as Dr. Martin, et al.
  
"Jesus didn't saying anything about learning per se, being in conflict with true piety.  He only dealt with particular instances where pride, self-serving, and complacency had set in.  He called them "hypocrites", not "wrong"."

~ Hypocrites, in a 180 turn... they may know of scripture, but are tools of the devil in preaching it.

"Being "unlearned" does not guarantee any more of the praise of Christ than being well studied."

~ I believe it was Christ who said that those who truly understand are like children.

"Scripture also provides us with examples of "learned" people who were pious and friends to the Cause of God, and Christ.  Traitors and friends come from both sides of town, and that's usually the way it is."

~ Surely! And those who are learned are treated as "cult" leaders by the Christian majority.  


"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."
Stephanos
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89 posted 04-11-2006 12:12 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

LR,

lol.


Stephen
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90 posted 04-11-2006 12:45 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
Jesus let it be known that the religious majority was missing it. So today, are the religious majority... missing it



Yeah, but Jesus explained why they were "missing it".  He didn't just slur them because just because they were studied.  And his was not typically your line of approach.  Most of the time, yours has been a blanket approach, where seminary or any kind of formal study automatically makes someone spiritually less in your eyes.  That way it's not necessary to get into the rigors of discussing what they teach or do.  Is that correct, or am I misrepresenting you?  I'm just telling you how it seems.


quote:
Hypocrites, in a 180 turn... they may know of scripture, but are tools of the devil in preaching it.



Actually that's a misrepresentation of how Jesus approached the authority of religious leaders of his time.  We read in Matthew 23:2-4, that Jesus said "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.  So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.  They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.".  That's very different than your approach, where a popular religious leaders' teaching would never be acknowledged by you.  Jesus at least acknowledged that while they may be doctrinally okay, they are guilty for not living the things they teach.  Because of that reason, Jesus could teach a respect for their office of authority, while being critical at the same time.  It just seems that his criticism was more discriminating than yours, since with you very large and loose categories of diverse groups are usually bundled and dismissed, without a shred of praise.      


quote:
I believe it was Christ who said that those who truly understand are like children.


My Children do their homework, and often study harder than I do.  If you are implying that Christ meant to devalue education by saying this, then I disagree with you.  That's taking him quite out of context.  Didn't Paul write to the Corinthians, "Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults."?  

quote:
Surely! And those who are learned are treated as "cult" leaders by the Christian majority.


Way too general of a statement to be meaningful.  You'll have to bring up specifics and particular examples.  What teachers are biblically sound whom the "Christian Majority" is misnaming as cult leaders?  And why do you think they are wrong in disapproving such teachers?  There's always the possibility they are right in some instances and wrong in others.  But until you bring them up, we can't know either way.


Stephen.
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91 posted 04-11-2006 05:37 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

~ The Bible teaches me that it is all about a 3-fold of prophecy.
Examples, please? Both Stephanos and I gave specific examples in Holy Scripture to popint out our thoughts. As of yet, you have given none to back up your statements.. again, not an attack, simply asking for your proof.

So today, are the religious majority... missing it, which most certainly includes all of the great majority leaders
Would this include the Rev. Billy Graham? He has never been accused of any ill doing, he has never been accused of any impropriety, and he has been married to the same woman for 50 or 60 years. He also used to travel the world (until his wife got too ill for him to do so any more)preaching the Gospel, and encouraging the people to follow His words, and to follow the Laws as He set them in stone to Moses. He has councilled leaders for no pay to help them make Christian choices for their nations. Is he also missing it?

...they may know of scripture, but are tools of the devil in preaching it.
Please explain how Satan would ever wish anyone to know the scriptures of his greatest enemy? I might not be doing the Lord's work Monday thrugh Saturday, however if I am giving the Word to those who believe and get a few of them to stop walking the path that I, myself am walking... how is that being a tool of evil? If I get people to do as I am saying, and to stop doing what I am doing and live their life for Him... wouldn't Satan want it the other way around? To further prove my point ,I do not believe that James Bakker, or Jimmy Swaggert were tools of Satan. They had millions of people believing, and praying to G-d, and turning their life to serve the Lord. What these two individuals did was severely un-Christian like, and not in the best interests of the Lord; however, the souls that turned to Him as a result of the two of them is not anything Satan would do.

~ I believe it was Christ who said that those who truly understand are like children.
Children are not unlearned in this example. Children are accepting uunconditionally, and obedient to their Father, with their eyes open and full of wonder at the greatness of the world around them. THAT is what was meant. IT is only after man has become cynical and unfeeling that he turns away from G-d.

And those who are learned are treated as "cult" leaders by the Christian majority.
So... let me see if I get this right... EVERY single Christian minister in the entire world is a "cult" leader? Father Edward Shine, the principle of the Catholic school that I went to was a "cult" leader? Those who teach at the theological institutions of learning are "cult" leaders?

I am quite sure that you have someone who is instructing you in the Faith... probably a minister. In order to become a minister, one must be knowledgable- or learned- in the ways of the Lord. Would he be a cult leader? Does he (or she) not "get it?


"... the rest is silence"
from the song The Flesh Failures
www.myspace.com/mindlesspoet

JesusChristPose
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92 posted 04-12-2006 11:29 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Stephanos and Ringo,

~ Let me answer you both at the same time. Firstly, I do not mean any disrespect by the answers I am going to give to the both of you. In fact, throughout my journey for the search of truth, I have always been the one who was laughed out, lambasted, and called many other disrespectful things.

~ God must call a person in order for that person to understand what the Holy Spirit teaches. The majority of people are not being called at this time. Compared to the entire world population through, only a relative few have been called. And yes, I am aware of, "Many are called, but..." I am not going to argue the context of scripture.

~ Christ spoke in what the modern day person may call "ridules." Why? His own words state because it is not for them to understand.

~ This is what I believe the Spirit of God has taught me...

1. Only a very few people through out time have been called.

2. The vast majority of people have never been called even though they think have been.

3. False christianity is a product of Satan, and that includes all the main denominations of christianity, but Satan also produces falsities in other ways, including other denominations, etc.

~ With that being said, it is bestowed upon me by the Spirit of God, to know with certainty, that the majority of ALL the HUMANKIND will BE SAVED. That includes most likely everyon on Piptalk... so it may seem that I disrespectful, but in fact, what I have come to know, is the message of hope for all the humankind, including, and I am quite certain, both of you.

~ For me to present my argument in the way you both want me too, will do me know good. Why? Because if you are not being truly called at this time, 2 + 2 will never equal 4, and I don't want to waste my or your time.

I hope that clears things up.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Knubian
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93 posted 04-13-2006 07:59 AM       View Profile for Knubian   Email Knubian   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Knubian's Home Page   View IP for Knubian

Standing on the shoulders of those who came before us, we look out over the vast horizon into the eastern sun and ask our questions of poetic justice, blind justice, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth!

It is only a matter of blind semantics where the full measure of an individuals’ crimes are never known, unless we are in fact “all seeing gods” - creators of something other than our own justifications of why we kill or murder!  In the tree of knowledge of good and evil lay the wisdom of life and death, which is evident of the first birth of man to be a killer, a murderer.    

There is no scripture written, or should I say that might have survived the Roman-impersonation of Christ-followers.  But I could almost bet that some of the doctrine, scripture, and books of the first, second and third centuries AD, that was destroyed or hidden, and still hidden, could tell us that this wisdom of the knowledge of the tree of good and evil was mans’ ability to produce life and therefore his ability to produce death.

This knowledge of the creation of life and death - “Pandora’s’ Box” sort-a-speak - and man has been wrestling with these same two issues every since.  On one hand… what can we or I create in our own likeness, and on the other hand, what can we or I kill from our own likeness to make us as perfect as gods?  Remember, the serpent said that there is something God does not want us to know, (knowledge), but what it did not tell us was that with this knowledge and power came a greater responsibility, which we found out later.  Therefore, we have sought in time to reconcile in our responsibilities by measuring in degrees… life and death - good and evil.  

Is this the true measure of gods?  Is this the thing that created the rebellion in Heaven?  Is this the things that pitted angels against humans - against God Himself?  We are but a simple being with little knowledge of time before our time, yet we are grappled with a grave question that even angels feared in Gods’ Presence.  

By us being grappled with this question of life and death, way… before Gods’ intended for us to know it, our eyes became open to the goods and evils of life and death but closed… to the closeness of God, because of the same strife that started with angels!  But here we are lacking understanding in both phases because of what may have been hidden and destroyed by this “Christian cult” started by men who raped and pillaged, and had little to no knowledge of the core enigma of Christ in the first place?  “I believe in spiritualism.”

I still say that Christ only came here simply as proof that there is an afterlife for us regardless to what happens to us here in this world!  Not to die for our sins, or to wipe away our sins… but in reconciliation because we had no chance in the beginning against the serpent!  As meek as little children, defenseless of themselves in the presence of an entity secretly bitter of their very existence!  Satan wanted this power of life and death in Heaven but couldn’t have it, so he sought to destroy what God made good… humans.

Remember the passion and what it stood for?  Which of us as men or women could stand up to such thrashing without utilizing our ultimate power as the Son of God, or a super-powerful nation?  Which of us could suffer the toils of JOB, or die peacefully in the electric chair for a crime we didn‘t commit?  Or stand up to the ridiculing of Noah as he built the Ark in his back yard?  We would be locked away in an institution and drugged on pills for the rest of our lives… are we so in tune with our faith that we would do nothing to defend ourselves!  

The answer in Christ is this; lay down your sword of power and pick up the sword of righteousness!  To bring the knowledge of good and evil - life and death, back to the gates of Heaven within a “ugly spirit” is truly the mis-understanding of why satan and his band of followers were booted out of Heaven in the first place!  …And only the few “that are chosen” of all the ones that were called, have laid down their swords of power and pick up the sword of righteousness and in doing so have found their life.      

That is where faith comes into view… in the face of all adversity, ridicule, suffering, the blindness of justice, hunger, broken, weak and beaten!  In that vast horizon in the east where the Son promises all our questions will be answered, if only… we just ask.

Regards,
Knubian

Stephanos
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94 posted 04-13-2006 05:11 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
It is bestowed upon me by the Spirit of God, to know with certainty, that the majority of ALL the HUMANKIND will BE SAVED.

JCP, is that just your truth, or a universal truth that applies to all?


To me this grandiloquent statement smacks of the kind of "authority" that you tend to rail upon.  Have you changed your views?

quote:
And yes, I am aware of, "Many are called, but..." I am not going to argue the context of scripture.

Why not?  If scripture seems to directly contradict what was "revealed" to you, then you should at least try to square with that.  I personally think your methodology of "I'm not going to explain myself since you wouldn't understand anyway, you're not chosen" is an easy way out of commending your views to others.  And no, it's not biblical either, notwithstanding the parables of Jesus.  


Stephen.
Ringo
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Saluting with misty eyes


95 posted 04-13-2006 05:30 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

False christianity is a product of Satan, and that includes all the main denominations of christianity, but Satan also produces falsities in other ways, including other denominations, etc.

I will preface this, my last post on the subject, by saying that I do not believe that you were intentionally disrespectful, or that you meant to insult anyone; however, in my opinion, that is exactly what you have done to too many people- not only on this site, but all throughout time.
As is usually my way, I am going to respect you ability to have your opwn thoughts and beliefs. There were (to bring this thread back to ts origins) too many people who put on a uniform and fought and died that you could do just that. I would, however, like to point out a few things that would make your latest post exactly what you didn't want it to be:

There are too many people on this website who are- by their own admission- very devout followers of Christ and of His words and works. As only ONE example, I give you Marge Tindal, who posts wuite frequently in Spiritual, and whom I have seen more than once profess her faith. Another is Bob Gotti, who posts more in Spiritual than almost anyone else I can think of. There are others, and I also have first hand knowledge of at least one member who is an ordained Christian minister. There is also another member who is a member of the Quaker society. To say that the beliefs these people hold is a product of the Ultimate Evil completely discounts them, their beliefs, and their upbringing. That is something I cannot, in good Christian beliefs, stick around to watch happen again... even though I know none of these people personally.
By making that statement, and by tying in something you said earlier, you have also made the HUGE advances that the Rev. Martin Luther King was able to bring about in the racial war completely useless, as he was a minister of the Baptist faith, one of the major brands of Christianity. He spoke of love (Love, Faith, Hope, And Charity, of these the greatest is love... sound familiar?), and of peace. He was, according to your statement, a product of Satan? When he was doing his best to do what was right and good for all mankind, and not himself? Not a very evil mindset, eh?
Billy Graham, of whom I have no real love, nor disrespect, has spent 50 years preasching the words of the Bible. Not once has he been accused of any personal or financial missteps. 50 years of traveling the world speaking about the "one True G-d" and how to live a Christian life and please Him through living the Ten Commandments, and the best that he can be offered is "Sorry, but your ministry is the work of Satan because you started life as a Presbiterian and ended it as a Sounthern Baptist."?
Sister Theresa spent her entire religious life minstering to those to whom no one would even lower themselves to look at, much less touch. What would Satan have any care about a bunch of lepers, and why would he have them being taught about Christ by a nun?
Catholicism (regardless of what many "reborn Christians" might believe) was the FIRST Christian Church. IF you will do the studying needed, you will see that all Christian religions, from the major denominations to the eccumenical, to the fundamentalists, to the various non-conventional sects, branched from that one religion. Why would Christ choose to champion that one school of spiritual thought that He, Himself died to defeat?

I can understand how you might believe that the non-Christian religions of the world mightbe the work of the Prince of Lies, as they take souls away from Him... however, claiming that the Christian religions themselves are products of Satan completely stretches the line of any credibility and is saomething that you should have, in my opinion, attempted to prove your point without stating it as bluntly as you did.

I do not expect an answer, and- honestly- will not be back to this thread to see if you do. I, being me, am not able to allow percieved insults and degredation of others to go unchallenged. Again, I DO NOT believe that was your intention. That is just how I perceived it to be.

If anyone I have mentioned in this post by name, or by description take offense, then I sincerely apologize, as none was meant. If you will contact me directly, I will be more than humbled to apologize personally.

"... the rest is silence"
from the song The Flesh Failures
www.myspace.com/mindlesspoet

JesusChristPose
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96 posted 04-13-2006 06:58 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

I wish I had time to sit and read all of these threads and replies, but I simply don't... well, at least not at one sitting.

"I will preface this, my last post on the subject, by saying that I do not believe that you were intentionally disrespectful, or that you meant to insult anyone; however, in my opinion, that is exactly what you have done to too many people- not only on this site, but all throughout time."

~ Well too bad you think so, because if you read my entire reply, it ended with you and most all others on this site obtaining eternal life. And if you did read it, then you are only looking at the short-term of things, which means nothing when compared to eternity.

~ With that being said, I believe what I posted was a positive message to all Piptalkers, including yourself, Ringo.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

JesusChristPose
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97 posted 04-24-2006 11:19 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"Why not?  If scripture seems to directly contradict what was "revealed" to you, then you should at least try to square with that."  

~ LOL ~ Scripture, itself does not. Your interpretation, among other interpretations, contradict what was revealed to me. Therefore, I don't have to "square" anything.

"I personally think your methodology of "I'm not going to explain myself since you wouldn't understand anyway, you're not chosen" is an easy way out of commending your views to others."

~ It may appear that way, but read the Gospels and you will see that the Scribes and Pharisees could not understand... neither could the masses. Why? Christ said it Himself, "It is not for them to know..."

"And no, it's not biblical either, notwithstanding the parables of Jesus."

~ You tell me, what did Christ say when asked why He spoke in parables?
  

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Stephanos
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98 posted 04-25-2006 12:49 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
It may appear that way, but read the Gospels and you will see that the Scribes and Pharisees could not understand... neither could the masses. Why? Christ said it Himself, "It is not for them to know...


Yes, when someone hardens their heart to the truth, divine destiny has a hand to play.  But that doesn't mean that Christ was not a teacher to whoever would listen, including the Pharisees.  As I recall, he reasoned with them from the scriptures quite skillfully.  Using pronouncements of divine destiny may be suitable at the end of a process ... but not as a substitute for coherent teaching at the beginning.  More often than not, you've circumvented the preliminary task of coherently explaining your views to others, and told them it's their own incapacity to understand.  That's not what Jesus did.  All anyone has to do is read the gospels in their entirety to see that.


quote:
what did Christ say when asked why He spoke in parables?


It's the same as always Mike ... To the hungry and simple hearted, parables were there to illuminate.  But for those who were rebellious in heart,  parables were a snare, because they would constantly misunderstand through twisting the words.  And really it's the same today.  


However, it's good to remember too that Jesus didn't speak only parables.  More direct styles of teaching were employed as well.  Remember the sermon on the Mount?  And honestly, the clarity of that kind of exposition, we need to hear from you before we can believe that we're simply rebellious and "unchosen".  


Again it's the difference between the end of a story and the beginning.  And in my opinion you're trying to skip to the last chapter.  So I'm not saying that such a statment, "It's not for you to understand" would be intrinsically wrong to say.  But I am saying that it has to be said at the right time, and after the right actions and words have been rejected, or it is little more than annoying.  


And with that, I'm done.  I'm here to debate, but not to argue.


Stephen.
Knubian
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since 03-25-2006
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Louisiana, United States


99 posted 04-25-2006 12:27 PM       View Profile for Knubian   Email Knubian   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Knubian's Home Page   View IP for Knubian

Quote:
--------------------------------------------
To the hungry and simple hearted, parables were there to illuminate. But for those who were rebellious in heart, parables were a snare, because they would constantly misunderstand through twisting the words. And really it's the same today.
--------------------------------------------

Somewhere between the years of 6 and 5 BC Herod built a city on a mound comprising two huge temples with one overlooking the Dead Sea.  Some say that Herod built this place to escape the persecution of his own people, more so than creating a place residence.  After his death in 4 BC the occupation of the mound changed hands many times.  This place was called Maseda.

Between 62 and 71, there took place a war between the Jews and Romans.  In Jerusalem a rebellious force of Jews took arms against Roman soldiers.  It is said that those that truly understood Christ’s teachings left the city as to avoid murder, chaos… death! - To which all those that stayed to fight took up the sword.

During this period a man name Josephus was said to have tried negotiating the both sides into peace, but called a traitor by his own people because he would not pick up the sword to fight for or against either side, he was said to have once been a man of spiritual influence among the Jews.  But because Josephus took refuge within the Roman cause, he instead chronicled the events that he and some others call “outright murder“, verses what some call the “ultimate sacrifice“.    

This war would sustain over a seven year period throughout the region cumulating on the mound of Maseda.  Upon this mound stood about nine hundred (900) men, women and children; rebels… surrounded by a legion of Roman soldiers.  After a four month blockade of the mound, the Roman soldiers finally breached the walls of the fortress.  But the next day when the soldiers entered the compound, every soul it seem had agreed to suicide, thus taking any glory and gains that the soldiers come upon from battle.

Although death, rape, slavery, and other horrific conclusion awaited them, Jewish law according to Scribes and Pharisees of this time, says one should not take their own lives, therefore these people would seem damned if they do; and doomed if they don‘t.            

The argument of Josephus, as is with some scholars today is this; did every man, woman and child commit to what some call this ultimate sacrifice, or where some in fact, murdered?

The question abounds because two women and four children escaped death by hiding in a cave, only exposing themselves once the Roman soldiers entered the compound - which eliminate the fact of every-single-soul agree to suicide.  

Twelve lots were “found by excavators…” - taken of men in the compound, which one man of the lot would kill the other eleven men… after all the people of Maseda were dead… and set fire to the grounds; except for the grain and food supply to show the Romans that they were in fact, never going to starve them out.  

Therefore, would these individuals willingly to commit suicide be considered the hungry and simple hearted, illuminated by these parables?   Or would they be the rebellious heart, twisting the words of the parables through their constant misunderstanding?

From the mound I thought He meant for us to stop adding to our troubles by worrying about things that were out of our reach and control! “Let today’s own troubles be sufficient for today.“  

We can’t re-write the seasons, interpose Gods Law beyond our own individual heart and mind, or create a soul, and believing that we can becomes somewhat satanic in nature… the forbidden knowledge that will destroy us all.  

Regards,
Knubian

 
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