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Kill v. Murder

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Balladeer
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50 posted 04-04-2006 06:26 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I was likening terrorists not to soldiers fighting for their lives, Mike, but to parents killing to protect their children

In that case, Ron, I understand your thoughts even less. Committing an action, in peacetime, against innocent civilians thousands of miles away for the sole purpose of murdering as many of them as possible is like a mother killing to protect her child? I cannot  believe you can seriously formulate a comparison there.

whether it's perpetrated with commercial airliners or with shock and awe military invasions.

Once again,I marvel at your comparisons.


there always seems to be little shortage of excuses and justifications, both to ourselves and to the world. People will believe anything that make them feel better

I disagree with that statement but there's no way I can prove my point and I can only go by my own thoughts there. You may very well be right but I happen to think that, behind all of the smiles and self-displayed bravado and fists raised in the air, at night in the darkness and alone, man cannot delude himself . Who knows for sure what goes on inside that head or what tortures they go though when all is said and done? I happen to believe it's not good. If you were to cheat someone out of something and get away with it, could you honestly convince yourself you did nothing wrong? Sure, you can say to yourself "I didn't do nothin' wrong" but could you keep up your guard when that little voice sneaked out and says "sure you did and you know it"? I happen to doubt it. There are exceptions, of course. There are sociopaths who do not have the capability of considering their actions to be wrong. That's a medical condition and those turn out to be the worst types of individuals. As for the others, they know. Why did Hitler commit suicide? If he didn't feel his actions were wrong, why be worried about answering for them? He knew. Think Hussein doesn't know? He knows.

At any rate, I gather from your response that you are indicating that I said parents and soldiers do not need to justify their actions. I said no such thing and meant no such thing. We did have the Neuremberg trials. Soldiers DO have the right to refuse an order that  they consider to be criminal or morally objectionable. Even the mother who shoots the man strangling her child has to stand trial to justify. Personally? I think Charles Manson's worst punishment IS his guilty conscious - but I don't mean that should be his only one. Everyone is accountable - not only to themselves but to the laws of a civilized country.

As I say, I can't prove it but I believe and hope I am right. It's the only thing that makes me believe O.J. is paying for his crimes, no matter how many golf balls he is hitting.
Ron
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51 posted 04-04-2006 07:59 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Committing an action, in peacetime, against innocent civilians thousands of miles away for the sole purpose of murdering as many of them as possible is like a mother killing to protect her child? I cannot  believe you can seriously formulate a comparison there.

Mike, objectively, the only difference in your statement above between New York City and Hiroshima is the reference to peacetime. And since Osama had long since publicly declared war on America, even that is arguable.

I am certainly not defending terrorism (but then, neither would I try to defend Hiroshima). My point all along has been that the minute you give yourself a free pass to kill without justification, you give the same free pass to everyone else. It's inevitable.

quote:
At any rate, I gather from your response that you are indicating that I said parents and soldiers do not need to justify their actions. I said no such thing and meant no such thing.

Oh. Then, in my best Gilda Rander voice, "Neeever mind ..."

I'm glad I misunderstood you when you said, " I will not condemn the mother who killed to protect her child, nor will I condemn the soldier fighting to save his life....and I don't believe they need to justify their actions."


Balladeer
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52 posted 04-04-2006 09:09 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I am certainly not defending terrorism (but then, neither would I try to defend Hiroshima)

May as well lump them together, too. Hiroshima happened  because tens of thousands of soldiers were being killed weekly in a war with no end in sight...that relates to 9/11???

What a thread Hiroshime would make. Could it happen today? Would the countries that endorsed it then do the same now? Would public opinion go berzerk now as it didn't then? Good questions.....

I'm glad I misunderstood you when you said, " I will not condemn the mother who killed to protect her child, nor will I condemn the soldier fighting to save his life....and I don't believe they need to justify their actions."

Dogonnit, Ron. Are you going to go by what I say or what I MEAN to say? They don't have to justify them to me, or you, but they certainly have to justify them to the laws of the country. That's the way the system is set up.

By the way, you are in danger of upsetting thousands of Gilda Radner fans around the world by misspelling her name


JesusChristPose
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53 posted 04-04-2006 09:54 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

I don't see any difference between a soldier killing another soldier in the killing fields and what the terrorists did to the U.S.A. on 9/11.

~ Both kill in the name of their country and God.

~ I asked earlier in this thread, and I'll rephrase it and ask this question to Christians...  Does any Christian reading this reply believe that Jesus would condone killing in His name?

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Balladeer
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54 posted 04-04-2006 10:00 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Which country did you say the terrorists were killing in the name of?
JesusChristPose
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55 posted 04-04-2006 10:03 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Multiple countries. What is the difference? What we label as being a terrorist, they label as freedom fighters. All I am saying is there is no difference when viewed from outside our own worldview.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Knubian
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56 posted 04-04-2006 10:13 PM       View Profile for Knubian   Email Knubian   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Knubian's Home Page   View IP for Knubian

I think every point the has been made in this thread is valid because we all have a right to our own opinions.  But one of the things that bothers me is the fact that we sometimes forget where Christianity came from, and the historic development of it over the years.  

Christ-followers; I believe was the original name for it before Constantine’s’ mother converted and convinced Constantine to move the capitol of Rome, but not after he himself, claimed to have been visited by an blinding light, or entity from heaven that told him to conquer in the name of Christ.  

Constantine, in the name of Christianity raged war.  In the end he was victorious and gave all his thanks to Christ.  Thus begin the Christian church, with Constantine serving as the first Pope and of course ruler of Rome.

With the exception of what Constantine said his reasons for conquering were, to me it would be in direct contrast to what most believe Christ stood for.  I thought that Christ came here to prove that those that were in suffering… not to worry, because in His resurrection was proof that there was in fact an afterlife - something, or someplace better than here.  JOB was the best example that man did not have to kill or seek revenge regardless to what happened to us.  Unfortunately, I’m not JOB, I wish I was.
  

Christ did say that if we ask, we shall be heard; and if we knocked, the door shall be opened;  and if we asked forgiveness for our sins, we could receive such.  

The early Christian church also used this “sin-factor” to justify sending knights of to kill, pillage, and die in belief that they could somehow absolve themselves of a sin(s), which may have been less than the slaying of a human life in the first place.  And all the while the Christian church was becoming one of the riches commercial organization in the world.  

Any other religion that formed or existed in these days were deemed enemies of the Christian church and its membership hunted and slaughtered.  Christianity was just another name given by those that raped the world of everything that it thought had value.  

We today, well some of us anyway feel like those “Christ-followers” did… watching as the powerful continue to dilute the whole understanding of what Christ stood for, and while I do believe in Christ, God and the afterlife, I do not believe in any man-made religion where people were and are continually slaughtered today.  God Ain’t said this, and Christ didn’t come here for that!  Humankind use this to absolve themselves of their own crimes.


In war; unfortunately terrorist don’t respect Geneva’s conventional laws of fighting a war, why should they, it seem that nobody else does!  Have anyone forgotten of our own “home-grown” terrorist?  Or the agents that gave and taught these people how to kill us?  Or the parts of our own government that sells us out everyday and then lie about it?

I can forgive a soldier that fights out good conscious of soldiering, but to take a prisoners cloths off and humiliate them for information is one thing - but to be stupid enough to take personal pictures is another.  We all know that some of our soldiers are in the army just hoping for a war to get a chance to kill something, and some are in violation of these laws, but that is not why we are at war, and that is not what every soldier stands for.    


There are so many excellent, excellent entries here, and I must say that some are very-well informed, but most are just good personal opinions… including mine.  I can really conclude with one entry,

Quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure, you can say to yourself "I didn't do nothin' wrong" but could you keep up your guard when that little voice sneaked out and says "sure you did and you know it"?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And so does God!


Regards,
Knubian

JesusChristPose
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57 posted 04-04-2006 10:21 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Back to the point of this thread, and since I have no takers on the question I posed....

~ I don't believe there is any significant difference between killing and murdering. To kill a human being when a friend, family member or self is directly threatened is different than knowing that a profession may lead to killing a human being.

~ There is no way that I can believe that Christ would condone a human being taking another human being's life in His name or country, or sense of duty, etc. He said it Himself - Bless your enemy! And this is what p@sses me off, that some Christians can justify the killing and say that Jesus never really meant to bless your enemy or turn the other cheek... Now, with that in mind, if we turn to the OT, we find that a true person of Jehovah, will be AOKAY, if he/she allows Jehovah to fight his/her battles, such as what happened in the OT. Of course, this is taking into account that the God of the Bible is in fact the true God.

  

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Balladeer
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58 posted 04-04-2006 11:04 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I had thought the Crusades were committed in Christ's name...along with other atrocities.
Ringo
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59 posted 04-04-2006 11:09 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

JCP- You made it a blanket statement that it is wrong to join the
military... if you are a follower of Christ and His teachings, anyhow.

OK. Let me see if I get this right... the young man or woman that joins
the military for the for the educational benefits, the travel, or
whatever, and spends his/her entire career sitting behind a desk ensuring
that the Armed Forces Radio Station has enough toner for the copy machine
is wrong, and displeasing the Almighty?

Also, by your statement (if I am to understand you) the individual who
is in any job in the military who suddenly finds themselves
blessed by your version of Grace and demands to be let out, even though it
could cause them to go to a court-martial, and thereby land them in the
civilian sector as a convicted felon... THAT person is perfectly
OK in the eyes the One True?

Well, let me ask you this:
Does your statement include the doctors that are in the military to
take care of the servicemen and women? Are they wrong in the eyes of
the Savior because they are attempting to save lives? How about the
corpsman and field doctors in Iraq who are treating the Iraqis? Are
they banned from Paradise because they are
following the words of Jesus as written by Matthew (Matt 25:35-40)?

How about the ministers who are there to teach G-d's Word to the people
they are serving with? These people are standing up before the world
and pronouncing their belief and faith in the Absolute. They are
attempting to lead others unto the paths of righteousness. By teaching others
to live as He has said to live, these followers of Christ are doomed to
an eternity of sizzle and frying because they are in the military?

OK... let's make this a little more realistic, and stop dealing with
"what if"...
I was a member of the United States Marine Corps for six years. My
father was a member of the Marines for 24 years. My brother was a Marine
for 12 years. During our times of active service, we all were active
members of the religious community on base. My father and I both taught
religion classes to the dependent children. All of us were lay readers,
and participated in the services. We were also ushers, Eucharistic
Ministers and assisted the clergy of all faiths in the upkeep of the
churches, and with any other project that came down the road. In Boot
Camp, my brother and I were the lay leaders for the Catholics in our
respective platoonsWe were not required to do so as our job. My father
started in the infantry and went to teaching civilians how to be Marine
Officers. I started in the infantry and went to the fire/rescue service.
My little brother stayed with the infantry his entire career. In the
eyes of G-d, we are all exempt from the Peace that passes all understanding because we were in the military while we were
doing our good deeds?

One more question:
There is a church down the road that has a "Christian" movie and cookie
and punch night every New Years Eve. I do not attend, because I offer
my services to the local drinking establishments as a designated driver
for their patrons who might not be able to make it home safely on their
own. I, myself, do not drink that often, and would rather ensure that
these people get home without killing themselves or someone else.
Because I choose to not spend my evening enjoying the company of those who
are Saved by the Blood of the Lamb, and would prefer, instead, to spend
my time with the sinners and those who have fallen to the wayside,
offering them safety and comfort, I am to be chastised and scourged, and to
be eternally taken from my Father because I did not spend the evening
with Him? Perhaps it is because I am Catholic and not "bathed in the
Blood" that keeps me from Salvation?



To be merciful to the cruel is to be cruel to the merciful.
www.impressionsintime.net

Knubian
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60 posted 04-05-2006 07:19 AM       View Profile for Knubian   Email Knubian   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Knubian's Home Page   View IP for Knubian

Everyone wants Christ on their side.  The only difference with the whole concept of Christianity is; that whom call themselves Christians and follows the true teachings of Christ, and those whom jump on the bandwagon of Christianity thinking that will absolve them of their sins... The crusades should taught us at least that much!

The true “Christ-follower” knows the true power of forgiveness through Christ and understands that Paul was once Saul, hunter and murderer of Christ-followers.  And look what Christ did for him?  

And although I don’t agree with Constantine’s reasoning for war, the Roman populace were tiring of their thrust for blood and mayhem of the rich and powerful and were in fact themselves converting to Christ-followers.  The Roman Senate was losing its power of persuasion in idol worshipping of its people and Constantine knew that in order to gain the full support of the people, he had to separate himself from traditional rule of Rome, (divide and conquer).  Now I do believe that Constantine’s mother was in fact a true convert… honoring the place where Christ died - the place we now call the Wholly Church.

There are many more examples of God’s power of conversion of the sinner from wretched to blessed, historically.  Moses himself was raised in paganism but heard a voice call to him, but Moses didn’t have to come back and lay his life on the line unless truly converted.  

Jack and Bobby Kennedy on the heels of their father’s ill-gotten Nazi sympathizing fortune - murdered like dogs - now heroes of an historic civil rights movement.  And although I the Kennedy’s had their own agenda like most politicians, they fit the scenario likening to Caesar… everybody get in on it, so we’re all as guilty as the other of murder, therefore we forgive each other… it is the Christian way!.  

I too am a military man from a partial military family… my father, two brothers besides myself, and a sister.  My father served in the Korean War, one brother during Vietnam, myself entering just months before the peace treaties were signed, and my sister in Desert Storm.  I know how the military thinks and moves.  It a way of life so ingrained in your blood that in one command you move without thinking twice of the order, or sometimes who gave it.

We had conscientious objectors then, but the system of dealing with them was different.  The ones that went to war were generally shot by follow servicemen.  Some were just kicked out.  Some were sent to prison.  But there were those that watched in horror as did the rest of the world and simply asked God for forgiveness and went to war like Sgt. York and Audie Murphy.  The whole point is, you put on that uniform you better be ready for war… that’s what the military do!

Does this separate killers from murders, not all the time!  We know the stories; we’ve seen the news reels… some of these fighting men would have been murderers in civilian life anyway.  Can you believe that at one point the civilian courts gave criminals options to go to the army instead of prison?  This is how you get murders in your ranks!

Sure we got all this technologies and gadgets, but none of it means a damn thing when a car full of explosives is coming at you 90 mph.  I applauded the infantrymen whose lives are on the front lines, while the brass and senators sit in the back and have tea and crumpets, and cause more confusion.  

Does any of this excuse killing and murdering?  No!  But it can define the difference between military duties and out-right murder, and we’ve seen both on both sides of the line.      

Regards,
Knubian

Brad
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61 posted 04-05-2006 09:22 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I keep skimming this thread and this quote keeps popping into my head. I hope it's close to the real thing:

"You don't win wars by dying for your country, you win wars by getting the other poor son of a 'gun' to die for his."

--"Patton"

Balladeer
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62 posted 04-05-2006 09:42 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

hmmm.....I don't remember him saying 'gun'.
JesusChristPose
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63 posted 04-05-2006 10:14 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Ringo,

You said a lot in that reply, so I am going to answer it a bit at a time, or if I get the time, I will attempt to answer the entire reply.

"JCP- You made it a blanket statement that it is wrong to join the
military... if you are a follower of Christ and His teachings, anyhow."


~ Not exactly. What I am saying is this... if a person is called by God, and that person accepts the calling by repenting of his/her sins, and is baptized, at that point or soon after, that person will receive the Holy Spirit of God. It is only then, will that person understand and know what sin is. The carnal mind does not know. Now, with the Holy Spirit of God providing knowledge of sin, that person, if he/she is in the military, will know it is time to get out. Why? Because of the possibility that that person would have to KILL, which is a sin.

Of course, this answer is linked to another misinterpreted concept of the Bible - that God is trying to save the world NOW. When in fact, God is not. Well, according to the Bible, that is. So, the overwhelming majority of military people are not truly called Christians. But that doesn't mean those people, among the entire world's population, will not have a chance to be saved. That will occur during the millenium, when they are raised from the dead in their flesh and blood bodies and taught no longer by man, but by the saints of God almighty.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Balladeer
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64 posted 04-05-2006 10:19 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

So, if killing is a sin, then how many times did God sin...or it is a 'do as I say and not as I do' situation.?
JesusChristPose
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65 posted 04-05-2006 10:39 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"So, if killing is a sin, then how many times did God sin...or it is a 'do as I say and not as I do' situation.?"

~ That is a good question. Answering from a Biblical standpoint, I would say that since God gave life, He has the right to take it away, and does so only when it is justified. Humans, on the other hand, cannot justify killing, because we are not God.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

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66 posted 04-05-2006 10:54 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

interesting....thank you for the explanation.
Essorant
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67 posted 04-05-2006 11:00 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

What kind of parent leaves such examples among childeren?  

What kind of teacher leaves such examples among disciples?

What kind of God leaves such examples among his believers?


Not one that I will ever believe in.  


Stephanos
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68 posted 04-06-2006 01:08 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

What Kind of judge sentences hardened criminals to keep them off of your streets?


I'm not saying that God is little different than an earthly judge ... but law and justice is definitely one aspect of his nature, revealed in a very wicked world like our own.  But then again, mercy and grace is revealed at the cross, where Jesus gave his life (nothing taken there) and whose resurrection is a portent of our own.  A God without either justice or mercy wouldn't be a God anyone could respect, much less worship.  
quote:
"Then he isn't safe?" said Lucy.

"Safe?" said Mr. Beaver; "don't you hear what Mrs. Beaver tells you? Who said anything about safe? 'Course he isn't safe. But he's good."

(C.S. Lewis, from The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe)
    


Stephen.
JesusChristPose
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69 posted 04-08-2006 12:37 AM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"Well, let me ask you this: Does your statement include the doctors that are in the military to take care of the servicemen and women?"

~ I can't answer that question. Only the doctors or nurses, etc., whom serve in the military, and ARE TRUE Christians could answer that, because that answer would come from the Spirit of God, not men/women, not from the minds of men/women.

"Are they wrong in the eyes of the Savior because they are attempting to save lives?"

~ When did I ever say that it is wrong to save a life? Don't mix issues. Saving a life whether in the military or anything else has nothing to do with killing a human life.

"How about the corpsman and field doctors in Iraq who are treating the Iraqis?"

~ How about them? God has his purpose and the overwhelming majority of the human race aren't being called at this time. Our lives are a mere "blink" with regards to the reward of all eternity.

"Are they banned from Paradise because they are following the words of Jesus as written by Matthew (Matt 25:35-40)?"

~ I am not a judge, so I could never say if one is banned from paradise (paradise is not to be confused with the misconception of going to heaven).


"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."
Ringo
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70 posted 04-08-2006 10:42 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

...if a person is called by God, and that person accepts the calling by repenting of his/her sins, and is baptized, at that point or soon after, that person will receive the Holy Spirit of God. It is only then, will that person understand and know what sin is.
I was baptised as a child, and was raised in the Church, and went to classes to teach me about G-d and all things related. I was sentenced to the Catholic Penetentiary System for a number of years (Catholic Schools) being taught by those who would know best... the nuns and priests. I was also training to become a priest when I realized that my life was meant to travel a different path. I went to Mass every Sunday. When I was an altar boy, I served Mass every day, and listened to His word as written in the scriptures. I was in adult religious training classes as a 15 year old because of my advanced knowledge...I was confirmed Catholic when I was 14, and was assisting with teaching religious faith to kids by the time I was 16 until I joined the Marine Corps, when I took over my own class for several monthys until I was transferred. By most people's standards, I would be presumed to have accepted the calling of G-d. Yet, according to your statement (if I am to understand it) I cannot have accepted Chirst, because I joined the Marines.

Only the doctors or nurses, etc., whom serve in the military, and ARE TRUE Christians could answer that...
According to you, they could not be true Christians as they are in the military, and might possibly have to kill someone (as do civilian doctors who "pull the plug").

When did I ever say that it is wrong to save a life? Don't mix issues. Saving a life whether in the military or anything else has nothing to do with killing a human life.
As they are in the military, they might be required to take a life.. this is a fair question, as it involves someone doig His works while they are in a position to disobey His laws.

How about them? God has his purpose and the overwhelming majority of the human race aren't being called at this time.
I am still confused, as it seems to me that you are talking two different stories (that is not an attack,merely my misunderstanding, I fear). The question still remains: These people, according to your statement, are not TRUE Christians because they are in the military (most of them willingly) yet they are doing His works, by doing unto the least of their brothers. I am almost positive that many of these people feel that they have been Saved, and that they are doing His works, yet according to you, they cannot be True Christians, though they feel they are. Which is the true version of the story? Are they being misled because they are, by their own admittance, Bathed in the Blood and are still in a position to destroy another human life?

Paradise is not to be confused with the misconception of going to heaven
UH... a little clarification, please? 40 years of religious indoctrination,(including a year of pre-seminary studies) has taught me that this is the same thing. How can that many preists, and protestant ministers be completely wrong about it?

"... the rest is silence"
from the song The Flesh Failures
www.myspace.com/mindlesspoet

JesusChristPose
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71 posted 04-08-2006 11:48 AM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Woah! Ringo, to answer your questions would open up an "old can of worms."

About learned religious scholars in our day... what did Christ say about learned religious scholars in His day?


"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."
Essorant
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72 posted 04-08-2006 02:33 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"What Kind of judge sentences hardened criminals to keep them off of your streets?"

I'm not sure what you mean Stephanos.
I was referring to using or portraying someone that kills, or killing itself as symbol of practicing authoritive justice, and being treated like jusitice itself in authority, and before those that so often look up to, imitate and emulate in the examples of those in authoritative roles: children, students, believers etc.  I don't accept that as being part of anyone's "role" or "rank" especially not one that is called "God".

"I'm not saying that God is little different than an earthly judge ... but law and justice is definitely one aspect of his nature, revealed in a very wicked world like our own.  But then again, mercy and grace is revealed at the cross, where Jesus gave his life (nothing taken there) and whose resurrection is a portent of our own.  A God without either justice or mercy wouldn't be a God anyone could respect, much less worship.  "

I agree.  
But you aren't making the distinction I was trying to make.  Justice is justice, just as parenting, teaching, and other things that help and save life.  Murder/killing or anything that strives against a human's life to take it away though is not.

Stephanos
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73 posted 04-08-2006 02:43 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

JCP,

If religious leaders are not to be trusted merely because of their position and schooling, then much less are they to be vilified for it.  

Jesus didn't saying anything about learning per se, being in conflict with true piety.  He only dealt with particular instances where pride, self-serving, and complacency had set in.  He called them "hypocrites", not "wrong".  Their lifestyle was attacked much moreso than their doctrine.  Being "unlearned" does not guarantee any more of the praise of Christ than being well studied.

Ringo has referred to his own "learning" in scripture, and you would do well to answer him, rather than tell him that his formal study puts him at some sort of spiritual disadvantage.  Scripture also provides us with examples of "learned" people who were pious and friends to the Cause of God, and Christ.  Traitors and friends come from both sides of town, and that's usually the way it is.  


Stephen.    
Stephanos
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74 posted 04-08-2006 03:10 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Essorant:
quote:
I was referring to using or portraying someone that kills, or killing itself as symbol of practicing authoritive justice, and being treated like jusitice itself in authority.  I don't accept that as being made a part of anyone's "role" or "rank" especially not one called "God".


Well most of humanity, up until this present day, has felt that there is some degree of justice involved with killing those who have killed.  This is just as much descriptive as it is prescriptive.  "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed" (Genesis 9:6)

A life for a life is indeed just, Essorant, regardless of your feelings.  Unless you want to redefine what justice means to suit yourself.  Even if you want to say that words are no more than cultural consensus, by that measure, punitive death may still represent justice in most cultures ... including our own.  You need to go back and review what the word "justice" really conveys.  

You sound like you are trying to equate justice with mercy.  They don't mean the same thing.  But at least you recognize the need for mercy, and with that I will agree.  But I will still insist that though God is more than just (ie, merciful too), he is not less.  And regardless of whether you feel God has a right to impose death, he has indeed done so because of original sin.  I'm going to die.  And that's true of you as well, unless you want to conclude that God was powerless to stop physcial death, or that death is without purpose.


The Christian view is that death has a punitive element, but that, by God's mercy, it is more than that, it is remedial and redemptive.  A person who thinks that God shouldn't have the prerogative to punish sin, has not come to terms with the depraved reality of what sin actually is.  And a person who thinks that God should kill all of his personal enemies for their wrongdoings, is a person who hasn't come to terms with the fact that "mercy triumphs over judgment", and that even God's punitive actions are mixed with merciful relenting.  And a person who thinks that God shouldn't have the power of life or death, because we shouldn't, is someone who is forgetting the divide between our authority and God's.  It's good to remember the ways that God has become like us (incarnational truth), so that we may have a path to him.  But it's also good to remember the ways that God is different from us, that we may retain a healthy fear and reverence for him.  


Stephen.    
 
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