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Kill v. Murder

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Ringo
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25 posted 03-31-2006 11:40 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

quote:
I would say that Christ justifies the sinner who kills at time of war by grace alone through faith alone, just as he justifies anyone who sins


After a few personal experiences, I did some checking with a few clergy of various faiths (luckily, I am friends with several) and with the exception of the bleeding heart liberal who told me it was my duty to lay down my arms and walk away from the Marine Corps if they asked me to do such things... (not something the USMC advocates) they all explained it as such:

While it is true that I broke G-d's Law by intentionally causing harm to another human being, as I realistically have no viable options other than to obey, then the sin actually belongs to those who are forcing me into such a situation. The responsibility lies with those who caused me to be in the situation in the first place... besides, if He is, indeed, a loving and forgiving G-d, then we should be forgiven in any case, should we not?

Actually, my thoughts on the sinning part of this killing in time of war (and in anything, really) all falls into the category of intent.
Examples:
1) Thou shalt not steal Pretty easy to understand. If it isn't yours, and you take it, you done boo-boo'd. NOW... imagine that you are a single parent with 4 kids to feed at home, and you have no cash and no way to get any. They kids haven't eaten all day, and you have no way to feed the,. You walk in the house with groceries bought with moey your stole, oir wth food you stole, either way. Did you, in fact, sin?

2) Thou shalt not kill. The topic of this thread. You have 2 kids and BOTH of them are suffering from kidney failure, and you are the only match for both. According to most Christian beliefs, suicide is the only unforgivable sin. Yet, you paint the walls with your broans after leaving a note explaining that your kidneys are to be given one to each kid. Are you going to sizzle and fry for an eternity for killing yourself?


To be merciful to the cruel is to be cruel to the merciful.
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JesusChristPose
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26 posted 03-31-2006 11:56 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose



"While it is true that I broke G-d's Law by intentionally causing harm to another human being, as I realistically have no viable options other than to obey, then the sin actually belongs to those who are forcing me into such a situation. The responsibility lies with those who caused me to be in the situation in the first place..."

~ Could that not also apply to Satan as to the government which one serves? After all, it is a choice to serve a government.


"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

[This message has been edited by JesusChristPose (04-02-2006 03:02 PM).]

Ron
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27 posted 04-01-2006 01:19 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
... yet those words may still "sting" others due to their truth...

Mike, when "your" truth consistently insults others you can be fairly certain that you're going to hear my truth and, trust me, it's going to do a lot more than just sting. We've put up with your belligerence and intolerance for too many years and, frankly, my patience has reached its end. The "truth" is that you still haven't learned how to carry on a civil conversation with others.

Feel free to write me if you'd like further clarifications.
Mandamus
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28 posted 04-01-2006 11:56 AM       View Profile for Mandamus   Email Mandamus   Edit/Delete Message     View IP for Mandamus

Ringo,

I believe you are on the right track, as long as you do not confuse absolution for violating God's moral law with "forgiveness" of homicide by the criminal justice system during times of war.  

If I understand jbouder correctly, he is saying that God justifies sinners by grace through faith alone.  While the "sins/crimes" of others might excuse the homicidal acts of a soldier from earthly justice, if salvation is by faith alone, this would seem to rule out the notion that the sins of others justify people before God.  Even when they do seem to "justify" people before other people.

Does that make sense?

Mandamus
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29 posted 04-01-2006 12:55 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"through faith alone."

That sounds the same as "blind faith" to me.
What's the difference?


Knubian
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30 posted 04-01-2006 01:58 PM       View Profile for Knubian   Email Knubian   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Knubian's Home Page   View IP for Knubian

When God gave Moses the Ten Commandments, God became so angry that after all that He had done to bring the Israelites out of bondage that they when left alone would construct a golden calf, but Moses intervened while on the mountain for the sake of the Israelites, and God let it pass.  However, when Moses returned to see for himself, he broke the tablets; and subsequently put to death those believed to be responsible.  Some scholars say that it was for this, they were to wander in the wilderness for forty years, with Moses himself, never having sat foot in the Promised Land.  So I do not think that God gave anyone permission to kill something or someone He created.  Therefore, the Ten Commandments would be a bad example to use here according to the killings and/or murders that took place immediately after they were given to man; and the consequences immediately after.  Yet, as far as many prophets of old go, I have always heard that it was mostly them being hunted and murdered up until the time of Constantine.  

We have done most everything things feasible… put man on the moon; underwater exploration; satellites throughout the universe; expeditions to outer planets.  What else is left, to explore but death?  What else was left for us to feel but the feeling of killing, and murder?  

Our hands, hands, hearts, minds… on the brink of feeling nothing at all; – left searching for the last drop of rain to fill the void created in our lives and propaganda-cated by those wishing to gain favors and riches.  Were we feeding on every misunderstanding that suppressed itself behind this death-sickness left untreated or aware that it sets the soul on a collision course with hell, while never knowing what we may or may not be getting ourselves into?

It was so simple, yet complicated by the words of a feeding frenzy called vanity, and greed… to be something more than what we are, the dust of the plains, blowing in the wind!  Yet who shall escape... without the self being thrust back and forward, and through those winds to the other side of death, yet never reaching the Promised Land?

It is not a hard thing for man to kill – it starts with the simple crushing of a bug, an unwanted pest, a nosey journalist, an inquiring mind of difference, a skin-tone, a religious belief, a different language, a new ideal, a community unwanted.  We, whom the Lord has sent here to this tiny place in the universe, now mix the bloodline of greed of consumption, and poison the wines of life with killing, murder and death of the body!  However, should not the amputated spirit count as the murder of ones being, ones soul, ones community, ones generation, ones way of life?  Then what is murder if the intent shows itself in complicity of a gathering of voices influenced to kill without knowing murder and genocide is the intent?  

How many voices from an over-crowded world does t take to kill a human being, a spirit, a soul, a states-person, a prophet, a God?  Is it a few?  Is it many?  Is it too many voting for killing and murdering with or without cause?  Are these the things that we have been waiting for – to kill and murder our way to a new beginning?  If not, then why are we killing?  Who and what then are we really protecting, and why!

I will say it in a plain and simple language, that there are no complications of life and death.  Both are lived from the beginning to the end of it, and everything in-between is just a record of how we have lived it, where we have been, and how we lived died; anything else we do to and for each other are intentional.  

For whom then does the bell toll?  Is it a justified kill, or an intentional murder?  Would our soldiers ever have to have been in harms way, if the capitol of the Roman government had never moved back to Rome from Constantinople (Turkey).  On the other hand, if Kennedy had not been assassinated before our advisors were removed from Vietnam.  Or if America wasn’t getting rich by selling scrap-iron to Germany and Japan while they went about pillaging Europe in the first place?

There are so many if… so many rights and wrongs… so many opinions and scenarios that no one person, or any group of individuals could tell you why we continue to kill, or murder!  Only that we have gotten good at doing it; and rarely is any murder a justifiable kill or vise-versa, outside of vanity and greed!  Therefore, we turn back to intent, but there is also stupidity and fear, and a few more reasons in-between!  Rarely are we really killing or murdering to protect someone.  However, when and if we are, are we still subjected to missing our promised end?

We kill and murder by our own wills, not Gods!

Regards,
Knubian

Stephanos
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31 posted 04-01-2006 03:18 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Essorant:
quote:
That sounds the same as "blind faith" to me.  What's the difference?


Jim is talking about being saved from one's own sins by trusting in what Christ has done, and his own claims about forgiving sins.  In what sense would that be "blind" faith?  It is faith that is both historically and experientially grounded.


Otherwise I'm not sure what you're asking here.  


Stephen.
Knubian
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32 posted 04-01-2006 07:52 PM       View Profile for Knubian   Email Knubian   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Knubian's Home Page   View IP for Knubian

My problem with bringing religion in this discussion is that God gave His prophets “The Sword of Righteousness,” not a sword of slaughter.  In assassin-tory fashion Prophets and disciples alike was hunted and assassinated/murdered; like many other great figures throughout our history of humankind.  

In the final analysis I have learned to stop asking the question who, but why.  Why should a murder take place?  How many great men have lowered their guard and took the spear, the arrow, the bullet, in the name of what they believed to be just?  How righteous are any of us whom subordinate our beliefs, positions in life and certain matters, which we know to be right or wrong for the sake of self-preservation?

To kill someone is sometimes understandable in our place as humans, but we are not gods… to tag, and justify, or even divide the “Commandment of murder,” (which is the actual read in the Ten Commandments- murder, not kill), into degrees of murder, manslaughter or self-defense!  Remember, each person under Moses charge suffered forty-years in the wilderness.

If you really stop and think in terms of that wilderness wandering, the innocent as well as the guilty who might have survived Moses’ sword all wandered together.  What is the analysis behind this?  Could we in fact say that a guilty murderer serving twenty-five to life will do just about forty-years, but really have no prospect of promise when returned to society?  Moreover, what about the family of the victims – do they also suffer at least forty-years apiece… reliving the case in court and going to parole hearings; and in-between suffering the loss of a love one?  

It is funny how when we really sit down and think about the questions we pose to ourselves, how history plays the greatest part in it.  As there is nothing we can do, say or ask, that has not already been done, said, asked and answered to the best of the abilities of those great minds of that given time.  Moreover, even as we convene here this day, tomorrow and forever, of the same question historically one-hundred years from now, will not the same question take place unless we discover something different?      

Historically religions have held this world hostage on the on-skirts of their foolish pillaging, killings and murders, in trying to order-lize humankind.  The Crusades of Europe, the Spanish inquisitions, and the witch-hunts of America are real-life historical testaments of why the separation of church and state is so important.  We cannot! – Under any circumstances, allow the church to govern our lives, or believe the church to be entirely truthful, considering their track record of murder, rape and theft.  After all, would you knowingly leave your child with a man whom has done his best to lie and cover-up for his rapist brother?

In saying this, is not to say that I do not believe in Christ or God, or even an afterlife, but as I become more familiar with where we come from, the more I tend to find my own way – right or wrong, I stand alone before God in the end – in my own name!

Regards,
Knubian

Essorant
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33 posted 04-01-2006 09:35 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Stephanos

I just don't see how "faith alone" does it.  
Any religious person or group may say that about their faith and God to try to authorize, justify, or exempt their responsibility for the worst deeds.  What rightful ground is an involved person's faith to judge that person's deeds by?   How does a person's faith make any difference for or against the fact that a person committed murder whether in peace or in war?  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (04-02-2006 11:30 AM).]

JesusChristPose
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34 posted 04-02-2006 01:27 AM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Jim,

I want to apologize to you even if you didn't read the reply that was deleted.

And, I just want to say that if I come across in an offensive way, it is not intentional.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

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35 posted 04-02-2006 10:45 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

JCP

I read your reply.  
And didn't think it intended anything wrong or rude.  But intent isn't the whole point.  If there is something that is or may certainly have a chance of offending and the writer fails to see that then it betokens a lack of carefulness in the way the post was written.
  
Exactly what was wrong:  

- Letting an argumentive comment with a negative tone of voice be in any way directed or possibly suggested as directed at the person at any points in the comment instead of the person's comments themselves, that in the heat of the argument makes things become personal instead of about the argument itself.

- the very unpleasant word in your last sentence.      

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36 posted 04-02-2006 11:46 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

quote:
I believe you are on the right track, as long as you do not confuse absolution for violating God's moral law with "forgiveness" of homicide by the criminal justice system during times of war.

There is no confusion, Mandamus. During times of war, or any other times, if the military authorizes the use of deadly force, then there is no criminal justice system to deal with. The taking of another human life has been authorized by a competent authority and therefore, no crime has been committed. Same as with a police officer who kills in the line of duty while in a "combat" environment, such as the North hollywood shootings of a few years ago. The use of deadly force was authorized, and therefore there is no crime.

quote:
~ Could that not also apply to Satan as to the government which one serves? After all, it is a choice to serve a government.

Yes, it is a choice to serve the government, however it is NOT a choice to go into combat. Those decisions are made by people who are in a position of authority. And, before the argument gets started about "choosing" to be in a combat unit, learn about the way that the military chooses what specialty you get. It is not always your choice.
Also... if someone, for example, is a firefighter (as I was) and is assigned to the Airfield Defense Unit (as I was), then when the airfield you are stationed at is attacked, you are put on the line and told to kill anything that is in front of you and moving. That is not a choice you made. You joined the serive to save lives, and now, you are being required to kill someone you don't know, and whom you have no particular hatred for because someone told you to.
"No problem," you say. "You have a choice to not fight." UH... wrong again. If you lay down your arms and refuse to fight when ordered by a competent authority, then one of three thngs is going to happen:
1) You will be killed by the enemy
2) Your fellow warriors are going to shoot you
3) You will be brought up on charges, one of the penalties of which is death.
In this little scenario, 2 1/2 of the three situations end up with you being dead... and in the process, it is quite possible that many of your friends are also dead because you decided to not defend them. Survive the next 40 years of your life knowing that you caused your friends (who ahve children, and wives, and mothers and fathers depending on them for financial support) to die, and now you have also caused numerous hardships and sufferings for those people. And all this because you chose to join the military in a NON-combat unit.
The last I heard, Satan didn't have non-combat units. Anyone choosing the "Dark Side" knows that they are going to be going against as many of the Top 10 as possible.

One more quick example of how your example is a bit (in my opinion) skewed, and then I promise to send this novel to the publishers:
You join the Navy as a member of the medical corps. The Chief of Naval Operations decides that you can best serve that job being a field corpsman assigned to a Marine combat unit. While in combat, a grenade lands in the midst of you and 4 of your fellow warriors. The first thing you do is place yourself, face down, over the grenade, which then explodes, and spreads pieces of your intestines over a 400 yard area. There are numerous sins that you have committed, according to you and the many "good" Christians who don't believe it is in your heart that counts.
1) According to your post (unless I read it wrong, and I will apologize) volunteering to join the Navy in a non-combat unit is akin to joining forces with Satan.
2) You are assisting others who are actively taking a human life in deirect disobeyance of the Ten Commandments, therefore you are committing those sins as well.
3) You purposely caused your own death, knowing what the consequenses of your actions would be. That is suicide by ANY definition, and it is (according to most Christian religions) an unforgivable sin.

Yet, the Bible (which all "good" Christians love to quote to serve their own purposes) tells us that "Greater love hath no man than this: that he lay down his life for a friend."
OK... so, even though the corpsman in our example laid down his life for a friend, if I understand your thoughts (and again, I apologize if I am wrong) he is destines to an eternity of being bar-b-que because he broke G-d's law.

Does something not seem right here?


To be merciful to the cruel is to be cruel to the merciful.
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Stephanos
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37 posted 04-02-2006 01:34 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Essorant:
quote:
What rightful ground is an involved person's faith to judge that person's deeds by?   How does a person's faith make any difference for or against the fact that a person committed murder whether in peace or in war?  


Jim may correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he was merely saying that whether or not killing in war is murder or sin, a person is ultimately saved from such things by Christ.  I don't think that he was trying to justify the act of murder, or even "necessary" killing.  If you want to stand by the concept of complete justice though, there's just one problem ... No one can "undo" anything they've done.  So the properness of grace and forgiveness on God's part, and the necessity of faith on our part, can be clearly seen.  


And the reason that "faith" makes a difference to God, is that he himself has taken the just sentence against sin, on the cross.  So justice has been met.  We have been potentially released from our punishment.  Only trust and reliance in what God has done is now necessary for us to be cleared.  That is certainly, however, no excuse to do what is clearly sin, presuming that we automatically have forgiveness.  Because repentance does seem to be bound to faith.  In seems that it is an indispensable ingredient.


Stephen.
Ron
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38 posted 04-02-2006 02:06 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Ringo, I think there are many faults with your logic and understanding of Christian mores, but the part of your argument that most bothers me is your seemingly complete unwillingness to accept responsibility for your own choices.

Each man, draftee or enlisted, chooses the service over other alternatives. Whether his intentions were good or bad, selfish or altruistic, to take or to save human life, is ultimately irrelevant to the consequences of that choice. The road to hell, and all that stuff? In the end, he's there because he chose to be there.

Similarly, each man chooses, when the time comes, to pull the trigger. Not liking the alternatives doesn't absolve a man of the responsibility for his choices. Indeed, throughout life, the alternatives we have available are almost always the result of earlier choices, and each fork in our path can be traced to earlier forks. Each man writes his own path, albeit usually without much thought. Each man, I believe, has to take responsibility for the path he chooses.

I don't think you can realistically paint a Marine into the role of unwilling victim. It's perfectly fine to try to justify the long line of choices that led to pulling that trigger, but it's simply not accurate to claim there were no choices because the alternatives all sucked. We have only too look at others, at the draft dodgers in Canada, at the conscientious objectors, at the fragged second louies, at anyone who has ever made different choices, to see the lie inherent in such claims.

"They made me do it," in my opinion, is always a cop-out, even when true. There is always a choice to be made, and that choice always confers responsibility.


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39 posted 04-02-2006 06:41 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Actually, Ron, I am more than willing to accept the responsibility for my actions, and have done so more than once. When I was put into the situation we are discussing (not the firefighter aspect, that came after), I knew what I was doing, and when I was in that situation, I knew what I was doing, and what the outcome was going to be: someone wasn't going home because of my actions. That fact bothered me for what I consider to be far too long. It was this situation that led me to taking a lat move into the field of Aircraft Firefighting. I eventually made peace with the fact that I was there, I did what was expected of me, and I came home while people I didn't know stayed on that battlefield forever.
It wasn't easy, and it took me a great while to do so, because I knew it was ME that did that. It was ME that pulled the trigger. It was ME that watched and heard men die. I joined the Marines for a variety of reasons (more than just the "I was bored" I usually give when asked), and never once considered anything except the 03 field. I knew going in that we were having difficulties around the world, and that I would more than likely be required to do what is demanded of America's assault forces.
I took full responsibility then, and I take the responsibility now. I am simply bringing another viewpoint of the killing in the military bent of this thread. That of the young man/woman who joins the military in a non-combat capacity (firefighting, computers, medical, admin, whatever) for the education, or whatever reason and is put into this position through forces beyond their control. As you already know, if you join the military in peace, it is kinda hard to claim that you are an objector once trhe bullets start flying without doing some serious down time. And running to Canada doesn't work any longer as they now have an extradition treaty with the United States.


To be merciful to the cruel is to be cruel to the merciful.
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Local Rebel
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40 posted 04-02-2006 07:29 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

The only difference I really see, in terms of responsibility for a soldier goes, is that when he or she is in a uniform marching under a flag -- everybody under that flag on the field and at home is responsible when the trigger is pulled -- whether or not they agree with the individual action of the soldier(s), under orders or not.
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41 posted 04-03-2006 12:28 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

JCP:

Apology accepted and no offense is taken.  Being passionate about one's beliefs is a good thing.  We all let our passions get ahold of us from time to time.  Think nothing more of it.

Ess:

By "faith alone," as Stephen summed up, I mean a salvation that is apart from any merit we can earn in "God's book" as human beings.  The object of faith, in my view, is the person who lived the blameless life we couldn't and suffered the punishment we deserved.  By faith in Jesus' life, death, and resurrection (i.e., belief and personal appropriation of the implications of these events), Christ's perfection is imputed to the believer (in the legal sense) and our shortcomings are imputed to the crucified Jesus.  In other words, He received the punishment we deserve and we receive the reward He rightly earned.

The difference between this faith and blind faith is, essentially, that blind faith has no object.  Jesus, his life, death, and resurrection, are the objects of saving faith, while blind faith is merely a belief, without foundation, that a certain choice we make is going to result in a desired end.  In essense, one's self is the object of blind faith.

All:

It is of utmost importance that we understand the differences in meaning between the words "justify," "excuse," and "mitigate" if we are to understand Moses, the Prophets, Jesus, or Paul.

To be justified means to be declared just or righteous, as in a court of law when one is found "not guilty" of a violation of law.  To be excused of a penalty for a crime acknowledges that the criminal act was, in fact, committed, but the penalty is waived (as in a soldier's license to kill or one who kills in self defense or in the defense of another).  Mitigation acknowledges the criminal act, but cites specific circumstances that reduce the penalty for the crime (e.g., accidents, or walking in on your spouse in the throws of an adulterous encounter and committing a crime in the "heat of passion.").

The Christian's good favor with God is best described as a "justified" relationship.  God does not recognize the sin because, by faith, Christ's righteousness becomes the Christian's own righteousness and this is what God "sees" when He sees the Christian.  In contrast and in the legal sense, Christ paid the price for our sins on the Cross and, from God's perspective, the price for our past, present, and future sins have already been atoned for.

Again, the Mosaic Law contains elements with both metaphysical and practical implications.  God regards all killings of other human beings to be sin.  Man (or the legal tribunals of man) might regard all killings to be wrong, but in the interests of maintaining the public order and of equity, attempts to enforce penalties that account for all the facts of the case.

Stephan:

One of these days I'll have you convinced that James was a Judaizer and that his Epistle ought to be stricken from the Canon record.     Seriously, the only way to read Paul and James in harmony is to recognize that "good works" are tied to faith insomuch as they invariably proceed from genuine faith (in Paul's words, they are the "fruits of the spirit").  Faith without works is surely dead in the same way that fruit trees that do not bear fruit are of no use.  The fruit does not "bear the tree," it grows on it (although it can result in the growth of other healthy trees).

The only other options are to regard James as a Judaizer (as I jokingly did above) or Paul as an antinomian.  Both are, in my view, seriously mistaken.

In other words, Christian's doing the right things (summed up as loving God with all our hearts and minds and loving our neighbors) is evidence of the invisible work God has done to the Christian's benefit.

To Brad's original point, I think the danger in regarding killing at times of war as "justified" is in cheapening the loss of human life and somehow making that killing out to be something it is not ... that is, "good."  Although I might be accused of engaging in semantics, the term "excused" denotes a specific circumstance, during which time killing is excused (e.g., defense against an aggressive state, the deposing of a tyrant after all reasonable attempts at diplomacy fail, etc.).  By doing this, we take it out of the moral realm, acknowledging that, on a moral level, it is still inherently wrong for one human being to kill another, while recognizing that certain circumstances excuse a soldier from the legal penalty of that act.

End of rant (for now),

Jim
Stephanos
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42 posted 04-03-2006 02:37 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
In other words, Christian's doing the right things (summed up as loving God with all our hearts and minds and loving our neighbors) is evidence of the invisible work God has done to the Christian's benefit.


Jim, Essentially I don't disagree.  If James could speak of "faith and works" without refering to both as really faith, then I think I'm okay to talk about repentance as a necessary ingredient ... one of those "works" without which faith is dead.    

I would just ask you not to be overly picky about my language here, or quick to charge me with pelagianism, as long as I'm only taking the same liberty as scripture does with descriptions.  Because at least superficially speaking, James does seem to be at odds with Paul (as Martin Luther attested), but as we both agree ... not essentially at odds.

You may be preaching to the choir here, and I just want you save your breath for better pursuits.  

Stephen.
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43 posted 04-03-2006 07:43 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Ringo,

I don't follow your angle on this matter. If a person accepts Christ as his or her saviour, becomes baptised and then receives the Holy Spirit of God, that person would know that it is wrong to join the military or would get out of the military if already a member. That way, they won't be "forced" into killing another human being.

~ In the OT, God used to fight the battles for his chosen people, until they decided against it. Could you imagine today, a nation, its leader and people throwing down their weapons, and if the God of the bible is surely the true God, watching as that nation's enemies are smoted by the hand of God?

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

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44 posted 04-03-2006 08:13 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"are smoted..."

That should be smitten  
JesusChristPose
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45 posted 04-03-2006 09:22 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

LOL

That is what happens when one watches 17 seasons of The Simpsons.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

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46 posted 04-04-2006 12:13 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Quite an interesting thread here!  Nice going, Brad Of course you begin it with a completely illogical statement Why do we go to war? We go to war to kill people but, at least, it got the ball rolling.

In my opinion, and without the intent of offending anyone, it seems that everyone is caught in the trap of trying to defend or justify actions whose rules have been set by an illogical source, which is the Bible. The Bible sets rules that are impossible for humans to follow and humans try to justify why their not being able to follow them is acceptable. God set down laws in the Bible that even He did not follow. Thou shall not kill? There were a lot of first-born Egyptians who didn't see the light of day because He didn't follow that one. There are hundreds of instances in the Bible depicting God's viciousness and wrath and yet we are told that breaking any one of them closes the gates of Heaven to us. Does no one see the trap set there? We are given an impossible set of rules to follow and then made to feel guilty for not being able to follow them. That is the greatest weapon religion has. We don't feel guilty? Then why the excuses, the justifications, the "God will understand" or "God will forgive" responses? Why not just say it's not possible to follow them? If everyone who sinned were to be denied Heaven, there would be no one there. Knowing that, Christianity and the Bible gives us an out - if we accept Jesus Christ as our Savior, we are saved. This goes for the mass-murderer on death row as well as the soldier. In that case, we need even LESS justification for our actions and have a lot more leeway. There ARE no excuses according to the Bible. As a billboard I read states "WHAT PART OF THOU SHALT NOT KILL DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?? The guilt of not being able to follow rules which were never intended to be followed tear people apart. That is a sad by-product of some religions. Fortunately there are positive sides to make up for it.  I will not condemn the mother who killed to protect her child, nor will I condemn the soldier fighting to save his life....and I don't believe they need to justify their actions. If Heaven is not for them, then it is Heaven's loss.
Ron
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47 posted 04-04-2006 02:41 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I will not condemn the mother who killed to protect her child, nor will I condemn the soldier fighting to save his life....and I don't believe they need to justify their actions. If Heaven is not for them, then it is Heaven's loss.

I'm glad, Mike, you didn't specify American soldier. Or Christian soldier. You didn't even specify they had to be in uniform or fighting by the rules you and I would prefer they follow. Your magnanimous gesture, then, applies not only to our own fighting men and women, but also to those whom they fight, and even it would seem to those who flew planes into buildings in hopes of making a difference for their children (however deluded your and I might think those hopes were).

A license to kill, with no need to ever justify one's actions, has a tendency to take on a life of its own, don't you think?


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48 posted 04-04-2006 07:35 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ron, if you read my magnanamous statement again, you will see that I said "a soldier fighting to save his life". If you wish to apply that to ramming airplanes into buildings and make the claim that the thousands of civilians in those buildings had somehow placed the perpetrators lives in danger and they were acting in self-defense, be my guest but I fail to see how a rational person could interpret my words in that way. Perhaps I am the irrational one, then?

No, I didn't specify American soldier, nor did I specify in uniform because I believe anyone has the right to act in self-defense. If an Iraqi  insurgent, for example, felt that the Americans breaking down his door were going to kill him, I would not criticize his actions to try to save himself by whatever means. Does that mean I would also accept his planting a bomb in a restaurant filled with innocents to blow them up? No, and I'm sorry if that is the interpretation you got from my words.

I do not believe in an unjustified license to kill but we all have the ABILITY to kill. How we use, or manage to avoid using, that ability defines what we are to the consciousness inside us. THAT is where God is, in my opinion. Living with one's actions is our heavn or hell and there are no excuses or justifications that will excuse us from ourselves. We live with what we do...and there is nowhere to run from it.
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49 posted 04-04-2006 02:52 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Mixed analogies, like mixed metaphors, get confusing quickly, I guess. I was likening terrorists not to soldiers fighting for their lives, Mike, but to parents killing to protect their children. International violence is always designed to protect children, after all, whether it's perpetrated with commercial airliners or with shock and awe military invasions.

quote:
Living with one's actions is our heavn or hell and there are no excuses or justifications that will excuse us from ourselves.

Unfortunately, Mike, I can't agree. On the contrary, whether one is killing Germans, Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese, Afghans, or Iraqis, there always seems to be little shortage of excuses and justifications, both to ourselves and to the world. People will believe anything that make them feel better, and demonizing the enemy is surprisingly easy. Shoot, Americans even managed to do it when we fought ourselves, for crying out loud. Seems like there's always someone in dire need of killin'.

Besides, I suspect Charles Manson would be delighted to hear that his worst punishment was going to be a guilty conscience for the rest of his life.

If parents and soldiers don't need to justify their actions, Mike, they can't be held accountable for them, either. I think I would have a real problem with that.


 
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