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Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
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Waukegan


0 posted 12-28-2004 07:09 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

“Tsunami Death Toll Tops 52,000”

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,142692,00.html

and counting . . .

So where do
all those men, women
and children Non-Christians go?

In Dante Alighieri wouldn’t it be
the first circle of Hell?
Local Parasite
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Transylconia, Winnipeg


1 posted 12-28-2004 07:16 PM       View Profile for Local Parasite   Email Local Parasite   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Local Parasite's Home Page   View IP for Local Parasite

Don't you love it when thousands of people die?  It's such a great opportunity to rip on Christianity.
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


2 posted 12-28-2004 07:43 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi



“The hills
Rock-ribbed and ancient as the sun, -- the vales
Stretching in pensive quietness between;
The venerable woods -- rivers that move
In majesty, and the complaining brooks
That make the meadows green; and, poured round all,
Old Ocean's gray and melancholy waste,--
Are but the solemn decorations all
Of the great tomb of man.”

http://www.msu.edu/~cloudsar/thanatop.htm

Local Parasite
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3 posted 12-28-2004 08:03 PM       View Profile for Local Parasite   Email Local Parasite   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Local Parasite's Home Page   View IP for Local Parasite

You can't really account for all of them in term of Dante's hell.  The children would go to the first circle, for sure, but it's anyone's guess where the others would go.  Really upstanding non-Christians must be very happy with their lives, and I imagine they'd continue to be happy with an eternity in Limbo, if all they need is time and self-consciousness without the grace of God in order to practice their religion.

Ain't nothing wrong with the first circle.
Stephanos
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4 posted 12-30-2004 06:39 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

It ain't so certain that unknowing children (or even adults) will go to Hell.  The biography of the Character of God would seem to make that absurd.  

(hey, bad grammar is catching ... Brian started it.  It ain't my fault)

Attempts to dogmatize to that level are inappropriate in my opinion.  (Coming from one who has no aversion to definite doctrine either).


Stephen.
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


5 posted 12-30-2004 07:20 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Stephen,

In Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn’s The First Circle one of his
characters relates how Dante created the first circle
in Hell to accommodate those virtuous individuals whose
lives pre-dated the birth of Christianity.  This would seem
a ignorance is innocence stance.  I don’t see how this wouldn’t
apply currently to those equally uninformed, and further how
it wouldn’t afford them a pass into better.

Juju
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since 12-29-2003
Posts 3353
In your dreams


6 posted 12-30-2004 10:12 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Playing off of misconseptions...

how cruel.

-Juju
Stephanos
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7 posted 12-31-2004 12:03 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

John,

It sounds like you are describing the Jewish concept of "Sheol", rather than the Christian concept of "Hell" or "Gehenna".  


My point is that death without the specific and immediate knowledge of God doesn't always seem to be the determining factor of salvation, even from a scriptural point of view.  There has always been the question of what happens to those unable to hear or understand, and I think "Hell" is simply not applicable in such cases.



Stephen.


    
Local Parasite
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8 posted 12-31-2004 12:04 AM       View Profile for Local Parasite   Email Local Parasite   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Local Parasite's Home Page   View IP for Local Parasite

quote:
This would seem a ignorance is innocence stance.


Keep in mind that Dante also believed in the harrowing of hell, so people like Adam and Noah didn't remain there.  So those who were before Christianity but still had the right God in mind made it out okay.  People like Virgil and Homer were still in Limbo but they shook hands with Dante and happily chatted with him, so it doesn't seem like they had it all so bad.

Stephen,

Limbo is basically like living on earth forever, according to Dante, so it doesn't involve any punishment.  Though it's underground, everyone's naked, and I'm sure nobody enjoys all the noise and smells coming from adjacent circles of Hell (the "vestibule" above and the tempest of fornicators in the circle below).
Stephanos
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9 posted 12-31-2004 12:36 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Again,  both of you guys should consider a study of the difference between the Jewish concept of death (Sheol- actually very similar to the Greek Hades), and the Christian doctrine of hell, or "Gehenna" as the final place prepared for the punishment of the wicked.  

If this distinction is made, then the Old Testament saints never were in "Hell", though they had died and perhaps even existed in "Sheol".  The same can perhaps be said for those whose eternal fates and the means of deciding them, are simply unknown to us,.  We find our consolation in the Character of God as savior, not in what we think we know of this matter.


Stephen.
Juju
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since 12-29-2003
Posts 3353
In your dreams


10 posted 01-02-2005 05:39 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

This reminds me of when my greek orthedox cathlic unkle had a fight with my romen cathic mother over who goes to hell.

Two people who cared deeply over there stance, yet all I could think was... wwjd

Even among christians there is different beliefs. Theologians argue this stuff.  

-Juju
 
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