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Passions in Poetry

Two quotes on why Hell is necessary

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Local Parasite
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0 posted 12-18-2004 03:09 PM       View Profile for Local Parasite   Email Local Parasite   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Local Parasite's Home Page   View IP for Local Parasite

Lately I've been reading a lot of what people have said about Heaven and Hell.  Two ideas from Christian thinkers I've come across that interest me, that I'd like some feedback on...

From Emanuel Swedenborg, Heaven and Hell:
quote:
Evil with man is hell with him; for it is the same thing whether we say evil or hell.  And as a man is the cause of his own evil, therefore he, and not the Lord, also leads himself into hell.  So far is the Lord from leading man into hell, that He delivers him from it as far as a man does not will and love to be in his own evil.  

All a man's will and love remains with him after death.  He who wills and loves evil in the world, wills and loves the same evil in the other life; and then he no longer suffers himself to be withdrawn from it.  This is the reason that a man who is in evil is bound fast to hell and is actually there, too, in spirit, and after death he desires nothing more than to be where his evil is.  After death, therefore, a man casts himself into hell, and not the Lord.

quote:
When, therefore, a spirit of his own accord and from his freedom drifts towards his hell and enters it, he is received at first in a friendly manner, which makes him believe that he has come among friends.  But this continues for a few hours only.  In the meanwhile he is explored in respect to his astuteness and his consequent ability; and when this has been done they begin to infest him, and this by various methods, and with gradually greater severity and vehemence.  This is accomplished by introducing him more interiorly and deeply into hell; for the more interior and deeper the hell the more malignant are the spirits.  After these infestations they begin to treat him cruelly by punishments, and this goes on until he is reduced to the condition of a slave.


From Jacob Boehme, A Dialogue between a Scholar and his Master:

quote:
Where thou dost not dwell as to thy SELF-hood, and to thine OWN Will, there the holy Angels dwell with thee, and everywhere all over round about thee. Remember this well. On the contrary, where thou dwellest as to thySELF, in SELF-Seeking, and SELF-Will, there to be sure the Devils will be with thee, and will take up their abode with thee, and dwell all over thee, and round about thee everywhere.

quote:
But when the Body dieth or breaketh away, so as the Soul cannot any longer enjoy such temporal Pleasure and Delight, nor the Light of this outward World, which is wholly thereupon extinguished as to it; then the Soul stands in a eternal Hunger and Thirst after such Vanities as it was here in Love withal, but yet can reach nothing but that false Will, which it had impressed in itself while in the Body; and wherein it had abounded to its great Loss. And now whereas it had too much of its Will in this Life, and yet was not contented therewith, it hath after this Separation by Death, as little of it; which createth in it an everlasting Thirst after that which it can henceforth never more obtain, and causeth it to be in a perpetual anxious Lust after Vanity, according to its former Impression, and in a continual Rage of Hunger after those Sorts of Wickedness and Lewdness whereinto it was immersed, while being in the Flesh.

Fain would it do more Evil still, but that it hath not either wherein or wherewith to effect the Same, left to it; and therefore it doth perform this only in itself. All is now internally transacted, as if it were outward; and so the Ungodly Soul is tormented by those Furies which are in his own Mind, and begotten upon himself by himself. For he is verily become his own Devil and Tormentor; and that by which he sinned here, when the Shadow of this World is passed away, abideth still with him in the Impression, and is made his Prison and his Hell. But this hellish Hunger and Thirst cannot be fully manifested in the Soul, till the Body which ministered to the Soul what it lusted after, and with which the Soul was so bewitched, as to dote thereupon, and pursue all its Cravings, be stripped off from it.


Personally, I quite agree that Hell is something that can only be brought on a person by himself, and that God really would wish the best for everyone.  The problem is that a soul at the time of death would be unable to enjoy the grace of God.

The question raised by these two passages is... is sin, like Swedenborg says, a cause of torment because it is liberated by death (in that without the laws and penalties of life there is no deterrent from sin), or because it is impossible in death (in that there is no outlet for physical indulgence in death, the body being dead and the spirit bare)?

A little context might help understand the difference here.  Swedenborg believes in a spiritual realm that is the source of the natural, so that might account for his disagreement with Boehme on this point.  For Swedenborg, the spirit after death is removed from the natural world and remains in the spiritual world, which is a world of states that correspond to things natural (think Plato's Forms).  So hell, being liberated, is a community of fallen angels that torment one another, constantly struggling to rise to the highest state of power.  So, sin is the cause of its own anguish (which stems from love of self), whereas Boehme says that the deprivation of sin is the cause of torment (as sin stems from love of the world).

Two pretty different ideas, but I think they're both good examples of how hell is necessary.  I'm not prepared to defend either of these thinkers, but I'm interested in whatever all of you think about what hell is---the hell question is a pretty popular one among atheists or opponents of the Christian faith and I find it kind of important to be prepared for.

[This message has been edited by Sunshine (04-14-2005 06:26 AM).]

Huan Yi
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1 posted 12-18-2004 08:28 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi



Emanuel Swedenborg not only conversed with the wisest dead
he would best them in theological discussions as would be attested
to by God shining a light on him so all his debaters would immediately
understand the rightness of his arguments.  He spoke with heavenly
beings who resided on Mars, Venus and other planets, (which, I seem
to recall, he visited). One could say that Hell would be
being stuck in a room with  Emanuel Swedenborg.

Christopher
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2 posted 12-18-2004 08:51 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

In order to be truly effective, Hell would have to be subjective. So would the sin that took one there.

Then again, so would redemption...?
serenity blaze
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3 posted 12-18-2004 10:36 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

and smile...Christopher just unwrote my speech.



(and thanks C)
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4 posted 12-19-2004 12:48 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

~DreamChild~
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5 posted 12-24-2004 11:43 AM       View Profile for ~DreamChild~   Email ~DreamChild~   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ~DreamChild~

i would agree with huan yi, as spiritualists are called adulterers in the bible, and all manner of mediums and such
are  condemned, unless they repent.

Local Parasite
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6 posted 12-24-2004 12:15 PM       View Profile for Local Parasite   Email Local Parasite   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Local Parasite's Home Page   View IP for Local Parasite

quote:
In order to be truly effective


I'm curious, Christopher, what do you mean by "effective?"  I don't see how that's relevant.

I might add that both of these quotes account for subjectivity.  Swedenborg says that the soul flees to the point most suited to itself after death, so hell is a reflection of subject rather than something imposed on them, and Boehme likewise maintains that it is the subject that is responsible for the state of "hell."  

The argument is that death isn't different according to person, nor is the state of the soul after death, so the subject finds itself in heaven or hell according to a very subjective reaction to a permanent situation (at least for Boehme) or finds its own community based on its taste (which leads it to hell according to Swedenborg).

I admit I don't see where "effectiveness" is an issue.
Arnold M
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7 posted 01-08-2005 08:29 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Why is the concept of hell necessary?

All I have found in using a Bible concordance
and other references is that "hell" is from an Anglo-Saxon word "helan"= "to hide", and it was a good equivalent for "hades" = "the unseen, or imperceptible".

Unfortunately, most translators of the English Bibles brought in a preconceived idea of a burning region somewhere in the middle of the earth, where disembodied spirits of the wicked are being, and will be tormented forever.

Three words in Greek usually translated

"hell" are: geenna = a valley outside the walls of Jerusalem, where the refuse of the city was burning, during Jesus day on earth,
and was a place Jesus warned about that those whose deeds were evil, would not enter the kingdom to come but would be judged worthy of death, and their bodies thrown into geenna.

"Hades" = "the unseen, or the grave"; nothing to do with a "burning place of torment".

"Tartaroo" = "to thrust down to Tartarus", and is used to tell where fallen angels are being held prisoner in "gloomy caverns" until
they will be judged.

So, our choices are not "heaven or hell", but life or death.  Christ said "I am come that ye may have life, and that more abundantly"

ice
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8 posted 01-08-2005 09:08 PM       View Profile for ice   Email ice   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ice

I have a question ...

Does Jesus, anywhere in the bible, speak about hell...I mean outright say the word in a sentence?

Or is it just mentioned by the mortals who wrote the book?

__________ice
   ><>
Stephanos
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9 posted 01-08-2005 10:50 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

ice,

yes he does.


I could give you some references if you want them.


Stephen.
ice
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10 posted 01-08-2005 11:15 PM       View Profile for ice   Email ice   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ice

Please send them or post them here, Stephen..
It may change my feelings about his teachings, but what is, is...thanking you in advance...ice/ford
Stephanos
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11 posted 01-09-2005 12:04 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

ice, no problem.

Some of these directly refer to "hell" by the use of the Greek word "Gehenna".  Others refer to hell only by inference, such as by descriptions of everlasting fire, and other such imagery.  


There are enough, that I've just given you some of the ones in Matthew.  That's enough to start looking at.  


Some of these, I just gave a verse or two, and not the surrounding context.  You'll have to read a little before and after the verses to get the fullest sense of what the passage is saying.  


Also, it's good to remember that though Jesus taught about Hell as a warning ... he definitely did teach truths which give us hope to escape it.  He also taught about the bliss and beauties of Heaven.  There is light to balance these dark passages, (thank God).    

Matthew

5:29
7:13
8:13
10:28
13:36-43 (Jesus explaining the parable of the tares 13:24-30)
18:8-9
23:13
25:30
25:41


Later,


Stephen.
ice
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12 posted 01-09-2005 10:12 AM       View Profile for ice   Email ice   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ice

Thank you Stephen
I will look into those verses and the ones that surround them..

This may be a mistake for me, as I already have very little faith in the bible, in a general sense...

If Jesus proves to be an advocate or even an accepter of a punishment as great as hell is said to be, then he will be dropped down a notch on my hero list.

__________ice
   ><>
Local Parasite
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13 posted 01-09-2005 02:17 PM       View Profile for Local Parasite   Email Local Parasite   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Local Parasite's Home Page   View IP for Local Parasite

quote:
If Jesus proves to be an advocate or even an accepter of a punishment as great as hell is said to be, then he will be dropped down a notch on my hero list.


Ice,

I don't think it's a matter of his "accepting" a punishment like this, as it is the impossibility of people being able to enter heaven.  You might be interested in the quotes I mentioned in the post, which show how the existence of a Christian Hell isn't the fault of God but of the individual.  Or, at least, I'd be interested in your reaction to them.

Brian

"God becomes as we are that we may be as he is."  ~William Blake

Stephanos
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14 posted 01-09-2005 05:48 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Ice,

This may be only an echo of the sentiment of Brian's reply .... But if Hell were a real possibility, and Jesus' desire was to warn men in the hope that they might flee the other direction, I don't see how that would cast doubt on his character.  We all appreciate honest appraisals.  And whenever there is any real danger, (whether we are learning to drive a car, or to climb a mountain), the forthright sharing of unsavory possibilities by our teachers is usally interpreted as a great favor.


So to me, the question is whether or not Jesus was being honest ... whether indeed Hell is a reality, or only an invention of men's minds.  If he was being honest, that can't be a bad thing.  And even if he were mistaken, but honestly so, his character remains noble.  


Also, consider that the whole episode of his betrayal and death on the cross, according to his own words, and the words of those who followed him, was in order to pay the penalty of our sins.  In other words, he gave his very life so that we could avoid the hell of which he warned us.  So if hell is a reality, not only did he tell us about it, but he DID a great and mighty act on our behalf to save us from that fate.  That's why the Church has always talked about his "vicarious suffering" on the cross.  One might forgive a man who seems overly preoccupied with hell, if he's truly willing to suffer it's torments in our place.  


If you look at it that way,  (which is the Biblical outlook) he becomes not an "advocate" of hell as a mere doctrine of punishment, but a leading warrior against its very real influences upon the world of men.


Stephen.  

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (01-10-2005 08:51 AM).]

Arnold M
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15 posted 01-10-2005 09:38 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Stephen, while it may seem I'm close minded, I am really not trying to be. My goal is to know and live by the truth of the Scriptures.

Question: Where in the Scriputes does it say
"the wages of sin is eternal torment" or words to that effect?
     All I can find is the contrast of life versus death.  Romans 6:23 reads, "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ, our Lord."

Question:  If Christ died "in our room and stead", paid the penalty (death) for my sins,
then why do we die?
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16 posted 01-12-2005 08:54 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Hell was not made for humans It was made for the bad angels. There is a theory that Humans through themselves in to Hell. I like not to think about who goes to hell or why it is neccesarry. Not That I am pretending it doesn't exist. Sometimes such thoughts in my opinion are cruel.

Juju
Arnold M
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17 posted 01-12-2005 08:56 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Help me find "immortal soul" in the Scriptures.
I read in Gen.2:7 "God breathed into man's nostrols the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

And there are many verses that speak of a soul being dead, or can die, such as: Lev.21:
1; 24:17; Num.23:10; Judges 16:30; Psa.33:18;
78:50; Isa.53:12, etc.

When the soul dies, it must be because the person dies, for many times man is called
"soul" in the Scriptures:  Gen.12:5; 14:21;
Exod.12:15,16; Acts 2:41; 14:22; 27:37, etc.

Arnold
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18 posted 01-13-2005 07:22 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

As I see it, Swedenborg, Boehme, and other thelogical philosophers writing on this subject are writing from there own imaginations influenced by pagan philosophers, such as Plato.  Only someone who has died and come back to life to tell about it, can speak the truth.  There are a few instances in the Bible where dead ones were brought back to life. Other than Christ, the most prominent one was Lazarus, who had been dead three full days, and whom the Lord Jesus raised.  Since, Lazarus was a believer, what marvelous things did he describe about heaven?  None! When he was dead it was as if he were asleep.  And "sleep" is a figure of death in the Scriptures.  No one exists in some other "body" or "soul" while dead.  The cure for death is resurrection.  

One good verse to read and ponder is Jno 5:28
,29 "the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth,
those who have done good to the resurrection
of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgement," RSV.

But the good news today is that Christ died for our sins and believing this is life for evermore.
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19 posted 01-14-2005 09:43 PM       View Profile for ~DreamChild~   Email ~DreamChild~   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ~DreamChild~

what about the terms "lake of fire", or as jesus so often said, "outer darkness".

and also, jesus said "there will be weeping, and gnashing of teeth"

and again... "where the worm dieth not"

don't know what verses, but it's there.
Arnold M
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20 posted 03-12-2005 03:09 AM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Hi Stephen and others, I've been away for awhile.  I'd like to get back on this thread.

Regarding the subjecting of hell, I would certainly agree that if you translate
"Geheena" as "hell", then in that translation
the bible speaks of hell. But translators go
too far to include "Hades", and "Tartaroo"
as "hell."

As we've no doubt heard, Geheena was a place
outside the walls of Jerusalem, which our Lord referred to eleven times, a place where
the refuse of the city was dumped and was ever burning,and worms were eating the rotting flesh and rubbish. A Jew could be judged guilty of death and sentenced to Geheena by the Sanhedrin, which was the worst sentence imaginable, for after being stoned to death his body would be cast into the fire.

Jesus came to seek and to save the lost sheep of the house of Israel, who,along with all Israel, were looking for the kingdom of the heavens, the golden age to be ushered in by the Messiah. I believe his warnings of
facing the judgement, in danger of the Sanhedrin (the highest governing council), and in danger of the fire of Geheena, were in effect in His day and will be during His Messianic reign. I'm pointing this out because Matt.5 sets forth rules for living to gain blessing or loss in the kingdom of the heavens to come.

Our Lord referred to Geheena eleven times and from all the contexts, it was a literal place in His day and will be again outside of the restored Jerusalem in the coming kingdom, as I understand it.

Of the verses listed by Stephen, four of them were warnings of being cast into Geheena, which is not some region in the center of the earth.

And may we look at the other verses listed:

Matt.7:13.."Go ye in through the strait gate,
because wide (is) the gate, and broad the way
that is leading to destruction, and many are those going in through it;"  Also 14, "And strait is the gate and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it." YLT.  
I see nothing in these verses warning of hell, but they are metaphors telling  the
Israelites to walk the strait and narrow to
be worthy of the kingdom. Christ uses another
metaphor,later in the chapter, about building your house upon a rock, and not sand.  Again, the contrast is between life and destruction, or, death.

Matt.8:13. I believe Stephen meant 8:12. I'll
quote 10,11 and 12 from YLT, "Verily I say to you, not even in Israel so great faith have I found; and I say to you, that many from east and west shall come and recline (at
meat) with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the reign of the heavens, but the sons of the reign shall be cast forth to the outer darkness---there shall be weeping and gnash-
ing of teeth."
From commentaries, etc, I under stand that the "sons of the reign (kingdom)" are the religious leaders of the Jews, the self righteousness that Christ castigated, and whose offspring, evidently live through the Great Tribulation; and now, after Christ, the Son of Man returns to earth, a great feast is being given, with Christ, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all those saints whose hope was the Messianic kingdom.  The feast must be at night in some lighted hall, for the unworthy sons of the kingdom are cast forth to the outer darkness, where they weep and gnash their teeth with bitterness.

Must stop now.  Will continue later. Bick


Arnold M
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21 posted 03-12-2005 08:08 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Continuing on: Quoting from Young's L.T.:
Matt.10:28..."And do not be afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna."
Man is said to be a living soul, and from the scriptures one might define soul as the consciousness, the feelings, the desires produced by the breath of life vitalizing the body.  I understand this passage as Jesus
teaching to fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in gehenna in the coming kingdom, and thus, that person would not be alive to enjoy all the kingdom blessings.
If someone is persecuted and killed, it's true that his body and soul die, but as a righteous person he would be resurrected and enjoy all the blessings of the kingdom.

Matt.13:36-43...Here Christ explains the parable of the wheat and darnel. Darnel is figurative of humans who offend and practice lawsessness at the end of the age when Christ, the Son of man, has returned to the earth with His angels to establish His kingdom.  The angels gather out of His kingdom the "darnel" and cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, which I interpret as fear and bitterness experienced before they die in the furnace of fire.
It doesn't indicate if the furnace of fire is Geheena or the lake of fire which has been created, maybe somewhere near Jerusalem.  I would say it is the lake of fire described in Matt,25:41.

Matt.18:8,9..."And if thy hand or thy foot doth cause thee to stumble, cut them off and cast from thee; it is good for thee to enter the life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast to the fire
the age-during.  And if thine eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee; it is good for thee one-eyed to enter into the life, rather than having two eyes to
be cast to the gehenna of the fire."
Again, gehenna may be called hell, but it will be a place outside of Jerusalem.

Matt.23:13 (I believe it should be 15):
"Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye go round the seas and the dry land to make one proselyte, and whenever it may happen---ye make him a son of gehenna twofold more than yourselves."
While the scribes and Pharisees were self-righteous hypocrites in our Lord's day, they weren't worried about the judgement of gehenna; but the lord who knew their hearts,
said one of their proselytes would be worthy of gehenna twice as much as them. In 15:33. Christ railing at them says, "Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgement of gehenna?"  

Matt.25:30..."And the unprofitable servant cast ye forth to the outer darkness; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth."  
I suppose one could interpret a number of trues from this parable (one of many concerning the kingdom of the heavens).  If, when the returning lord was asking his servants to give account, it was night and they were in a lighted house, may be conjecture, but when the slothful servant is thrown into the outer darkness, it makes sense to me.  It is true, "hell" can be interpreted to meen many things, including a firey furnace or outer darkness.  
To me, this parable means the slothful servant didn't use his talent for his lord Christ) and will lose any rewards in the kingdom of the heavens.

Matt.25:41..."Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers." and verse 46..."And these shall
go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."
To many, this fire (the lake of fire described in Rev.20:10), is one of the key scriptures  ascribing unending punishment to the wicked, because the Greek word "eonian"-
agelasting, is interpreted as 'everlasting' or "eternal".  A person has to make his own choice. But even if "eternal" was the view, it could not be true because, those being punished for how they treated Christ's brethren, must still be resurrected and appear before the Great White Throne, for the judging of their whole life.

Since there are differences of opinion, I'm sure there will be more discussion.
The Lord bless you,  Arnold
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22 posted 03-13-2005 04:08 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I've missed you, Arnold. Welcome back! And the Lord bless you, too, abundantly!
Arnold M
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23 posted 03-18-2005 08:30 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Dream child, while there is a lot of them, please read my posts 55.

The lake of fire, while not translated "hell"
will be a literal place in which, after Christ judges them at the great white throne,
those whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into.  This will be their second death.

Regarding "cast into outer darkness," see my posts 55.

More later.  
Arnold M
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24 posted 03-24-2005 01:34 AM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Dream child: Those are good questions. let's look at them.
The lake of fire is mentioned five times in Revelation: (1)19:20: The beast and the false prophet (Satan impowered human beings)were thrown alive into the lake of fire.
(2) 20:10: The devil is cast into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet were, and will be tormented day and night for ever and ever (litrally for the ages of the ages).
(3)&(4) 20:11-15: After being judged at the Great White Thrown, those whose names were not in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire, as well as Death and Hades.
This is the second death.
The popular view is that all will suffer eternal torment, regardless of whether they have sinned a little or a lot. This used to bother me, because, how could that be a fair, right judgement?  Then, after carefully
reading Romans 2, I understood that God will render to every unsaved human exactly what they deserve.  And, I believe it will be at the Great White Throne, with Christ as the judge.  Here are the words of Paul using the RSV:  "For he will render to every man according to his works;...those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.  There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,..."  I see these judgemments as both physical and mental. And after exacting His anger on them, what is the final ration of sin? It is DEATH. That is why I believe those cast into the Lake of Fire die and stay dead until resurrected.
(5) 21:8:  Reiterates that the wicked,the evil, etc, will be in the lake of fire which is the second death. They will have no part in the New Earth.

All for now.  Arnold

  
 
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