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Passions in Poetry

Two quotes on why Hell is necessary

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Cloud 9
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25 posted 03-24-2005 03:25 PM       View Profile for Cloud 9   Email Cloud 9   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cloud 9

One of 7 reasons not to mess with children.
  

1.  A little girl was talking to her teacher about
whales. The teacher said it was physically impossible for a
whale to swallow a human because even though it was a very large mammal its
throat was very small. The little girl stated that Jonah was swallowed by a
whale. Irritated, the teacher reiterated that a whale could
not swallow a human; it was physically impossible.
  The little girl said, "When I get to heaven I will
ask Jonah". The teacher asked, "What if Jonah went to hell?"
The little girl replied, "Then you ask him ".
Essorant
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26 posted 03-27-2005 10:22 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

It is hard to believe a man's eternity is based on a little blink of mortal life time.
Stephanos
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27 posted 03-28-2005 06:33 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Essorant,

It's also hard to believe your entire physical life is based upon the "blink" of physical conception, and the manipulation of a few specialized cells, yet we now know that that is exactly the case.  


The orthodox Christian belief is that a person's will, or the outplay of his or her life on Earth, is related to the timbre of that person's eternity ... but not that the whole of eternity is determined by that.  It is only part of the whole picture.


Isn't nature itself full of examples of smaller things that have vast import? ... of far reaching effects that are dependent upon modest causes?  


I find it much harder to believe that eternity would have no relation to this life, like two planes that never intersect.


Stephen.    
Essorant
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28 posted 03-28-2005 07:54 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Stephenos

But how does going to heaven or hell include judging one based on what he or she does in an eternal life, instead of this mortal life?  When one is sent to heaven or hell is it earned from more than what s/he did in one mortal life?

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29 posted 03-28-2005 08:55 PM       View Profile for Local Parasite   Email Local Parasite   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Local Parasite's Home Page   View IP for Local Parasite

Essorant,

Whether time in eternity is the same as real time seems to be a question worth asking.  If life is just a short time, which it is (read Psalm 39), what is eternity but a very long time?  Well, there's an answer to this.

The fact is that in the physical world, time works quite differently than in the spiritual world.  

This can even be observed in reality, through human perception, as there is a definite distinction between anthropological time and cosmological time---for the individual human being, there really is nothing but the "eternal present," or the now that always is---any conceptions of "past" are recollections, drawing to an instant those things of the past, which is made possible by the faculty of human memory.  Spiritually, or from the perspective of consciousness, there is only the eternal present---any chronological progress that we observe in terms of past or future are worldly, are other than the time experienced by the human spirit.

Thus, if the human spirit is separated from the world in which time exists, there is only the one, the eternal present, the alpha and the omega, the first and the last at a secluded point.  Eternity is not an endless line, but an echoing punctuation mark.

Brian

"God becomes as we are that we may be as he is."  ~William Blake

Stephanos
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30 posted 03-28-2005 09:37 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Essorant,

Heaven or Hell depends upon what a person does with Jesus Christ.  That involves more than God determining one's eternal destiny based upon behavior.  And God, being all wise, knows whether or not a person will ever believe on Christ.  I believe what is ascertained of an individual in one lifetime would not be different if that person had a thousand lifetimes, else God would grant that.  I believe no one is damned to Hell without the utmost measures on God's part to help that person avert such an end.  In fact the utmost measures were taken at Golgotha, and I'm not so sure it requires more than a lifetime for a person to come to terms with the Gospel.  


I'll bet divine wisdom is able to tell how much time is enough time.


Stephen.
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31 posted 03-29-2005 04:38 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

So in only a small mortal life man is capable of being good or evil; but in a whole eternity, he may only be one or the other?

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32 posted 04-02-2005 07:52 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Essorant,

I'm not sure that it's about being "good or evil" in this life, but rather coming to recognize that the only real goodness that exists is from God.  And while some of that goodness should manifest in this present life, eternal life is nevertheless based upon God, not upon mere management of personal behavior.


If you think of it in that way ... then eternity represents either coming back into union or unity with the goodness of God, or failing to do so.  Of course Christians believe that it's only through Christ that we can come back home.  


Goodness is what we were meant for.  Personally I'm thankful that eternity will show a resolution rather than a muddle, a purity rather than the disheartening mixture that we all know now ... the knowledge of good and evil.


Stephen.  
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33 posted 04-03-2005 12:50 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"  Personally I'm thankful that eternity will show a resolution rather than a muddle, a purity rather than the disheartening mixture that we all know now ... the knowledge of good and evil."

I guess I don't really believe in eternity that way.  
I think that all things are always "together" in a universe, a oneness rather than "seperated"  
The reason things are not seperated is because the less physical "states" in between things that seem to suggest "seperation" are really "part of them" of them too, and therefore in a spiritual way AND a physical way, everything is always touching and influencing every other thing.  People think the moon and the earth are not "touching" each other.  But the light and space between them is truly part of what they are as well, so that in a universal sense they don't end at the air and light between the distinctions "moon" and "earth" but they continue into that like shades of a spectrum "graduate" into other shades, so that they really do touch each other, even though they look seperate.  Our attention and distinction is so stressed on the "shapes" that we don't really "add" into the "whole" the less physical space between those shapes, but treat it as if it is not part of them.
We often treat light, darkness, and space, as seperate things, and in contrast with other seperate things that are more solid, but I don't think these are "seperate" at all; I think there is one spectrum becoming different shapes/shades/states, so that we make a distinction of the differences that the same underlying "spectrum" has, and then treat those differences as if they are seperate things, as if they are independant of each other.  The spectrum includes much more spiritual things such as space and thoughts, but also all things that are more physical.  
Physical and spiritual must not be seperations but rather distinctions.  
Everything is the same universe, the same existance and the same matter, just in a different shape.
As long as you are in the universe, which I do truly believe is the eternal "whole" I think you live with everthing else that is in the universe, so that no no matter how far you are from it, you are always touching and part of it.    
If you are in a lowest basement called hell of the universe, yet you still live with the goodness that is in the highest loft, that might be called heaven.  If you live in the highest loft called heaven, you still live with the evil that is in the lowest hell.  A "whole" and eternal universe must have everything in it, not just some things.
The whole universe or spectrum is not God, but it is everything, just like our body is everything that it has.  But the universe, I think, is like a body that IS other bodies as well.  In respect to that therefore everything is a body but a "body part" too.
God is the head of the universe and humans and animals are the toes; Angels must be the fingers.
        
Thus we are never seperate, even though we are strongly distinct and different from each other.  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (04-04-2005 02:27 PM).]

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34 posted 04-06-2005 10:23 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Essorant,

I wasn't talking about the distinction between physical and spiritual (which is often a false one, though not always), but between good and evil, especially the moral kind.


It's a Gnostic belief that the physical body is bad, and the spiritual is good, not a Christian belief.


But it would seem to me that a naturalistic belief like pantheism (or anything monistic, describing a hermetically sealed cosmos), has the perrenial problem of never being able to hope for any golden age, where wrongs are righted.  And it's all because according to that view, there is no fundamental difference (apart from something completely subjective) between right and wrong, or between good and evil.  And in fact most of the religions based upon such a monism, deal with this problem by denial ... by saying that the distinction between good and evil is illusory, and a part of "unenlightened" existence.  The only problem is that in that statement itself, there is the tacit assumption that enlightenment is better than unenlightenment, that one is good and the other evil.  So in the end, such belief-attempts don't get rid of the distinction, but merely push it back a step, hidden behind certain dogmas ... often not even realizing that it is ever present, and really unavoidable.


Therefore if you don't agree that a "muddle" of that sort will (or at least should be) straightened out, then I believe you face the same dilemma as the monists.  


But as far as the belief in things being harmoniously and gloriously "one" ... I believe that that state of affairs will ultimately be realized, with the caveat that much will be disposed of, renewed, and brought back to a state of original beauty and coherence.  The eastern view is not so much a wrong view, as it is a premature view.  And because it is premature, it is too inclusive.  


Stephen.

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35 posted 04-06-2005 11:17 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Absolutely, distinctions are always important, Stephenos.  
But I emphasize that distinctions may not necessarily indicate that that is being distinguished is seperate and independant from anything or everything else, rather than just a differing state of the same universe.  The same universe, the same existance, the same matter, just in a different shape/state/degree.  I no longer question that everything exists, nor that everything exists forever, both are bound to each other; but I wonder if anything or anyone is ever seperate and independant from anything or anyone else.  Just because  two things strongly contrast, doesn't mean they are not still of the same spectrum.  Purple and green contrast, but they are still colours of the same light.  That is in the reflection we call purple is the same light that is in the light we call green.  Although there are many colours, there is only one "light"  Every star is distinct from every other star, and yet they look to me like the same light.  Even shade and darkness seems just a less bright and direct state of light.  Even "space" beyond that seems like " darkness" seperate from light, may yet again be the same light in a different "grade".  The contrasts between a rock and idea, good and evil, don't mean for sure that a rock and an idea, good and evil are not just different grades of the same thing either; it truly may just means that these distinctions are so strong and needed in our life that it is almost impossible to ever imagine them as equally existant, and equally, though in many different ways, dependant on everyone and everything, a whole universe.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (04-06-2005 11:55 PM).]

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36 posted 04-07-2005 12:03 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Essorant,


do you feel just as comfortable with the eternal coexistence and coequality of two things like hateful malice and good will?  It's too easy to imagine that the only contrasts within the universe fall under the category of physical properties, which are easily reconcilable, and congruent with our mental acceptance, at least in theory.  I know of no objection I would have in the eternal co-existence of optical darkness and light.  But is it so easy to try and marry spiritual darkness and light?  Or to wed moral darkness and light?  


When we try to reconcile devils and angels, perversion and purity, beauty and ugliness, we are not so comfortable with the compound (and rightly so).  


The moralist you usually are, Essorant, would seem to have a hard time with your assertion that everything in the universe (including whatever is evil) is just a necessary and eternal part of the whole.  If that were really true, then your usual moral voice becomes nothing but a very arbitrary kind of unenlightened "noise".  


But, since I don't believe that is true, I'll continue to think that the moralist in you is closer to the truth than the monist in you.  


Stephen.  
  
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37 posted 04-07-2005 12:15 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

I still cannot relate to the need for Heaven or Hell. I must be from another planet, as neither location (as described herein) appear as necessary, and neither one appeals to me on any emotional, spiritual or intellectual level.
*sigh* the arguments for/or against slide unnoticed past my brain and my heart.

ROTFLMAO! I just read what Cloud 9 wrote, and am having laughter fits!   how funny!
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38 posted 04-07-2005 02:42 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"do you feel just as comfortable with the eternal coexistence and coequality of two things like hateful malice and good will?"

Yes, I feel much more comfortable because it means that everything else equally coexists too.  
If something for some reason somehow is "not existant" at all, or only partially existant, or only existant at some time and not another, or only at some segregated places, or else with some potentiality of becoming nonexist, then anyone could say anything, anywhere, and at any time may not exist , or may be more or less existant than something else.  
Therefore beleiving that everything is always equally existant all at one time and place: the universe, makes me feel much more comfortable and confidant.  

Good exists because good exists.  Not because evil ceases to exist.  
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39 posted 04-07-2005 12:58 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Stephenos

Imagine that you found a square and circle in a room, and that there was no way the square or circle may be taken out of the room.
If you came back and found only a circle, what would your first thought be?  
Despite the rule that it may not be taken out of the room by anyone, you perhap may still think that someone took the square out of the room.  Or else, you may think that it is nonexistant, and was never there to begin with!
Those are ways of approaching things in respect to human activities being involved where things we know come into and out of our sight from taking them out of sight, and from illusionists that try to propose that things we experienced in one way or another were only in one way or another "illusions" and  never truly existed.  
If the "room" is the whole universe though, those things make even less sense
In a whole universe if a "shape" is no longer present, then that shape is not "taken away" but rather is become another shape now.  So that a circle may be there not just of a circle that was there, but also of a "square" that was there too.  The square became the circle too. And neither ceased to exist.
With a change like that in mind, that is why hell makes no sense.  
A man shall not be a man forever, let alone do the evil he did forever, unless God denies him the opportunity to change, by sending him to hell
Ron
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40 posted 04-07-2005 02:04 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

LOL. Go cut off your hand, Essorant. Then you can tell us how it still exists, albeit in a different shape.

I would have to guess that anyone much past puberty knows what it's like to find love and then -- through one's own neglect or betrayal -- mess it up royally. It hurts. We immediately want to take back our actions or recommit ourselves to doing what we know we should have always been doing. We want to change. Sometimes we get that opportunity, maybe not just once but many times. Sooner or later, however, perhaps after we've blown chance after chance, our failure to return love in a faithful and meaningful way can have only one result. We find ourselves alone, forever separated from the one we love, knowing the hopelessness we feel is entirely our own fault.

Multiply that heartache and sense of loss by eternity, and you have Hell.


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41 posted 04-08-2005 03:06 AM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Dreamchild, regarding "casting into the outer darkness", my reference to my post 55 was wrong.
"Casting into the outer darkness, where men will weep and gnash their teeth," is in only three places: Matt. 8:12, 22:13, and 25:30.
A careful reading of the verses in their contexts, shows each account has to do with the coming millenial kingdom on earth.

In 8:12, Jesus describes a royal banquet with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (and I'm sure all the other Jewish saints),who have been resurrected.  The "sons of the kingdom", will, I believe, be those Israelites who had
little or no faith during the time prior to Jesus coming in power and great glory, and
therefore are not allowed to be apart of the great celebration.  This story seems to imply
that the banquet was in a lighted banquet hall, and those self-righteous Israelites, who think they will naturally be part of the kingdom blessings, will not be allowed in but are thrown out into the darkness, and of course will be so bitter and unhappy they will weep and gnash their teeth.

22:13 is a parable of the kingdom of the heavens about a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, and many were invited but wouldn't come, so strangers were invited (who must have been given wedding garments), but one man tried to get in with no wedding garment.  He was bound up and cast into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.  Again,if it was night, the wedding hall was well lighted and outside was the darkness.  Or, "outer darkness" may be figurative of the bitterness and unhappiness of those who can not be apart of the joys of the kingdom.

25:30 is again a parable regarding the kingdom of the heavens.  In this metaphor, servants are given talents to invest while their master is away. The first two servants doubled theirs, but the one with one talent did nothing with his.  When the master returned he praised the first two, but was angry with the last one who did nothing with his.  The worthless servant was cast into the outer darkness; their men will weep and gnash their teeth.

There is nothing in any of these accounts that "outer darkness, etc" is "hell".

Arnold
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42 posted 04-11-2005 11:55 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
A man shall not be a man forever, let alone do the evil he did forever, unless God denies him the opportunity to change, by sending him to hell

"The Landlord does not make the blackness. The blackness is there already wherever the taste of mountain-apple has created the vermiculate will. What do you mean by a hole? Something that ends. A black hole is blackness enclosed, limited. And in that sense the Landlord has made the black hole. He has put into the world a Worst Thing. But evil of itself would never reach a worst: for evil is fissiparous and could never in a thousand eternities find any way to arrest its own reproduction. If it could, it would no longer be evil: for Form and Limit belong to the good. The walls of the black hole are the tourniquet on the wound through which the lost soul else would bleed to a death she never reached. It is the Landlordís last service to those who will let him do nothing better for them.


...  Then the Guide sang:


'God in his mercy made
The fixed pains of Hell
That misery might be stayed
God in his mercy made
Eternal bounds and bade
It's waves no further swell
God in his mercy made
The fixed pains of Hell.'


(C.S. Lewis, from "The Pilgrim's Regress')

Stephen.
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43 posted 04-13-2005 02:07 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Hell is the way men used to punish men, not God.  If it was a "microcosm" of God's justice system our justice system could not possibily do better.  But it does.  God led us to democracy because all men deserve choice, and civilized justice, not because they deserve to be thrown into a fire pit for doing something wrong.
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44 posted 04-13-2005 10:30 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

From my research, I find no concept in the Bible originals, or copies thereof, that man has an eternal soul that, after death, will enjoy blessings in heaven or conscious torment in a place called hell.  

God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life and Adam became a living soul (Gen.2:7).

"Soul" is used for the total person many places in the bible, and in our secular conversations.

Many verses say that the soul can die, be destroyed, etc.

A word study of "soul" in the bible, shows to me that soul is the consciousness, the feelings , the desires, produced by the breath vitalizing the body.

The pagan Platonic philosophy of the "immortality of the soul" was accepted by a number of fourth century Christian theologians, headed by Saint Augustine, and while prevalent in orthodox theology, it is wrong.  

Death is the opposite of life.  The cure for death is resurrection.

Arnold
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45 posted 04-14-2005 05:03 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Essorant:
quote:
Hell is the way men used to punish men, not God.



That may be an oversimplification on your part.  Though cruel men may have used the doctrine of hell (to be distinquished from hell itself) to exert control over others through fear, good and kind men too have believed in hell ... that if there is a state of bliss and reward, there must also be an opposite.  


quote:
†If it was a "microcosm" of God's justice system our justice system could not possibily do better.††But it does.



Does it?  We still punish people Essorant.  There is still life in prison, and death sentences issued from the courts of this democracy.  (I'm not defending those things here, I'm merely pointing out that there are presently things in our system which are actually much closer to your ideas of "Hell" than to your ideas of a more sublime and humane "justice".


quote:
God led us to democracy because all men deserve choice



Exactly.  I know no better description of the will of choice ... than that people should be able to choose hell, as terrible as that may be, if they will do no other.  The doctrine of hell has never been that God would allow anyone to go there easily, or without pains on his own part.  


Even in a democracy, there is the possiblity of choosing the wrong, and sufferring ill consequences.  Freedoms and rights can and must be taken away, because of certain failures.  Even speaking of purely temporal things, those consequences are sometimes irreversible.  
  

quote:
and civilized justice, not because they deserve to be thrown into a fire pit for doing something wrong.


What exactly do you mean by civilized justice?

Think of it this way Essorant ... Even though a prison might seem more civilized to you than a fire pit, some of the internal distresses people have in situations are as fiery as any literal flame.  When justice takes the form of punishment, you use the term "civilized" to mean "mild", and that milder is always better.  But those words have never meant the same thing.


Maybe the unquenchable fire, and the undying worm, are descriptions of things like unlawful desires that go forever unmet, a conscience that has no quiet and rest in the light of truth, and a regret that is never remitted.  Not something that God actively does to us, as much as something we do to ourselves in the searching light of truth, when we don't accept the grace of God.    


People still feel things like that in the most "civilized" settings.  Some of the finest beds in the world, have been beds of torment for those who lie in them.  


Stephen.        

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46 posted 04-15-2005 03:36 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Stephenos,


"That may be an oversimplification on your part.  Though cruel men may have used the doctrine of hell (to be distinquished from hell itself) to exert control over others through fear, good and kind men too have believed in hell ... that if there is a state of bliss and reward, there must also be an opposite. "


What is the difference between what hell is supposed do and what a weapon is supposed to do?  
The belief that we should teach men thro pain to begin with I think is severly mistaken.  Many wrongs had never been done if that false idea wasn't there and acted upon. I think it stands true for people of every age, that pain is not a true teacher:  only a true teacher is.  

                                              
"Does it?  We still punish people Essorant.  There is still life in prison, and death sentences issued from the courts of this democracy.  (I'm not defending those things here, I'm merely pointing out that there are presently things in our system which are actually much closer to your ideas of "Hell" than to your ideas of a more sublime and humane "justice"."


The reason we do much better is because we don't make pain the center of punishment. Probably any form of punishment may border on some form of pain.  But overall, I think punishment is more and more governd with the pursuits of rehabilitation, communication, helping a wrongdoer, and making sure that his life is still safe and protected, and whereever possible giving him hope, and  letting him know he may change for the better.  Despite needing to punish a man, we still give him comfort to know that he may change and be helped and that he still has life and honour no matter what he said or did.  
What we may do for wrong doers in our democracies better than what people think God may do for wrong-doers when they say he sends them to hell, because hell doesn't bring any idea forth but causing pain.      
                                          

"Exactly.  I know no better description of the will of choice ... than that people should be able to choose hell, as terrible as that may be, if they will do no other.  The doctrine of hell has never been that God would allow anyone to go there easily, or without pains on his own part."  

It doesn't seem to agree with "the will of choice" though.  It suggests that one is "fated" ONLY to the "worst" for a worse choice.  And what choice does a man have when he is in hell?  Does he have a choice to have any comfort or to help himself, or be helped?  No, all he has is pain.  No comfort. No choice.


"What exactly do you mean by civilized justice?"

Civilized justice always defends man's high life and worth, no matter how low his words and deeds are.  He is punished, and respected at the same time.  Respected not for what he said or did, but for what he is: a man and a man that wield his own will and change, and is never "locked" into only one pattern of behavior..  No matter how many times a man repeats a foul crime that civilzed justice and respect must be there by which punishment should be goverened, because without it punishment will become like it was in dictatorships and monarchies.  
The justice system is flawed.  And we could go on for ages bringing up the flaws and the foul crimes that it commits.  But it still is a thousand times more civilized than sentencing men to torture for  not practicing the same religion.
                                        

"Maybe the unquenchable fire, and the undying worm, are descriptions of things like unlawful desires that go forever unmet, a conscience that has no quiet and rest in the light of truth, and a regret that is never remitted.  Not something that God actively does to us, as much as something we do to ourselves in the searching light of truth, when we don't accept the grace of God. ?


I don't have any problem expressing hell as something like that.  But the doctrine usually doesn't seem to suggest something that has any heavenly or good things, such as hope,  mixed with that too.  It just seems to suggest an end altogether.  We made our bad choice so we end up paying the price for ever through pain.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (04-15-2005 05:32 PM).]

Ron
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47 posted 04-15-2005 11:50 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
We made our bad choice so we end up paying the price for ever through pain.

The consequence of ingesting too much cyanide isn't a punishment, Essorant, be it just or otherwise. It's simply cause and effect, an invariant bond between one thing and another, a bond that can't be broken without ultimately surrendering to chaos.

Cause. Effect. There aren't any do-overs, no mulligans, no second chances. One thing leads to another and, for good or ill, we go on from there.
Essorant
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48 posted 04-16-2005 12:30 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

That makes more sense.  

But is that really how traditional lore portrays "hell"?  
XOx Uriah xOX
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49 posted 04-05-2006 12:06 AM       View Profile for XOx Uriah xOX   Email XOx Uriah xOX   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for XOx Uriah xOX

In the Hebrew of the Old Testament there was Sheol...representing the grave or the abode of the dead.   In the Greek of the New Testament this becomes Hades and carries the same meaning as Sheol. Moving on to the time of King James we see the word Hell come into being.  Hell is an Old English word that meant...to hide away, as to cover with dirt.  It was used in ways such as...Hell the potatos.  Today we...Hill them.   But Hell was intended to express the same idea as the grave or abode of the dead that sheol and hades had carried.  The doctrine of eternal punishment did not become an accepted teaching until well into the 2nd and almost 3rd century after Jesus.
As Hell is thought to be today...it would exist as an eternal monument to the victories of Satan.   I find it odd that anyone could imagine God allowing such a thing.
But...I will let the scriptures speak for themselves concerning the "freewill" that gains us Heaven or Hell and who is to be saved.  Everyone is free to edit these as they see fit or to just remove them from their Bibles if they cause disturbance.

Jer 10:23   I know that the way of man is not in himself: It is not
in Man that walketh ... to direct his steps.

Freewill?

Rom 9:16   It is not of him that willeth or of him that runneth, but
of God that showeth mercy.

Freewill?


John 6:44  No man can come unto me except the Father which hath sent me
draw him.

Freewill?


Proverbs 16:33  The lot is cast into the lap (center)  but... the whole
disposing (every decision)  thereof ... is of the Lord

Freewill?


Proverbs 16:9  A Mans heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth
his steps.

Freewill?


Just as it was God who sent Moses to free the people ... It was also
God...who hardened Pharoahs heart...to deny Moses.
Exodus 9:12   10:1    10:20    10:27   11:10   14:8

Freewill?


1 Chr 21:1  And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to
number Israel...

Now...The same story in... 2 Sam 24:1   And again, the anger of the
L O R D   was kindled against Israel, and He moved David against them
to say,  Go, number Israel and Judah

Yes... Pharoahs heart was hardened...but who was behind it?
Yes... David was provoked by satan...but who was behind it?
Yes... Job was tormented by satan....but who was behind it?

Romans 9:11-24    (for the children not yet being born, nor having
done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election
might stand, not of works but of  H I M  who calls),
12:  it was said to her, " The older shall serve the younger."
13:  As it is written, " Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

Now look at this...thus far     Before they were even born...Before
either of them had done any good or evil...God had already declared
that He loved Jacob and hated Esau.   That the  P U R P O S E  of
GOD might stand     According to...election     N O T  of  W O R K S
.... but of  H I M   who   C A L L S         Glory to God

Does God love Jacob and hate Esau...because of any of the Freewill
CHOICES they have made?

14:  What shall we say then?  Is there unrighteousness with God?
Certainly not !
15:  For He says to Moses, " I will have mercy on whomever I will have
mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."
16:  So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of
God who shows mercy
17:  For the scripture says to the Pharoah, "For this very purpose I
have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name
may be declared in all the earth."
18:   Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He
hardens.
19:  You will say to me then, " Why does He still find fault ?  
For who has resisted His will ?"
20:  But indeed O man, who are you to reply against God?  Will the
thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like
this ?"
21:  Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump
to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22: What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His POWER known,
endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for
destruction.
23: and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels
of His mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
24: even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the
Gentiles?

There are vessels....prepared for honor and glory
And there are vessels...prepared for dishonor, wrath, and destruction.

It is ALL....GOD

There is  N O  Power ... but of  G O D  

Col 1:16   For by Him   A L L   things were created that are in heaven
and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or
dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through
Him and for Him.

There is NO power... but of God


Shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it ?
                                                       Amos 3:6

I form the Light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:
I the Lord do all these things        
                                                    Isaiah 45:7

The Lord hath made  A L L  things for Himself: YEA, even the wicked
for the Day of Evil.                              
                                                     Proverbs 16:4


Freewill?
1 Tim 2:4    Who will have  ALL  men to be saved and come to the
knowledge of truth

How many?

John 12:32    And I , if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw
ALL men unto me

How many will be drawn?

Romans 14:11    For it is written, "As I live, saith the Lord, EVERY
knee shall bow to me, and EVERY tongue shall confess to God"

How many?

Phil 2:10    EVERY knee ,  EVERY tongue      Again


2 Peter 3:9   ...Not willing that  ANY  should perish , but that
  ALL  should come to repentance

How many is He willing to let perish?

1 Tim 4:10   ...who is the saviour of  ALL men, specially of those
that believe.

How many ?   Specially...but not limited to...those that believe.
He is...specially the saviour of those that believe...because...they
are aware of it...and have the peace and joy of knowing.

Lam 3: 31-32   For the Lord will not cast off forever    But though
He grief, yet will He have compassion according to the multitude of
His mercies.

Eph 1:10   That in the fullness of Times He might gather together
in ONE  ALL things in Christ, both which are in Heaven, and which are
in earth, even in Him.

Have we reached the...fullness of Times?   Dont sell God short
Do you think you can number Israel?  
1 Chronicles 21: 1-3   And Satan stood up against Israel and provoked
David to...number Israel
2... and bring the number of them to me, that I may KNOW it
3...  Joab answered " THE LORD MAKES HIS PEOPLE AN HUNDRED TIMES SO
MANY MORE AS THEY BE"

2 Sam 14:14  ... God does not take away a life; but He devises means
so that His banished ones are not expelled from Him.

Rom 11:26  And so   ALL  Israel shall be saved ...

Col 1:20  ...to reconcile  ALL  things unto Himself; by Him, I say,
whether they be things in earth or things in Heaven

Romans 5:18   Therefore, as by the offense of One ...judgment came
upon  ALL men to condemnation; Even so by the righteousness of One...
The Free Gift came upon  ALL men unto justification of Life.

Is it a ...Free Gift?   or must it be earned?    Why does the first
ALL written above mean...EVERYONE     But the second  ALL...is Limited?

1 Cor 15:22  For as in Adam... ALL die , Even so...in Christ shall  ALL
be made Alive

Once again...who has deceived you?  Why does the 1st  ALL mean...
EVERYONE    But the 2nd   ALL  is....limited ?
Did you....CHOOSE  to be born under condemnation?  Did you  CHOOSE to
be born under Adam?    What makes you think you  CHOOSE  to be in
Christ?     No one can come to the Son except the Father draw them
Just as He drew you...He will draw others.   God does the work.
Are you saved by....GRACE   which is...un merited favor    Nothing
you can...earn    Nothing you can...deserve   Just the Mercy and
Grace of the Father     or   Are you saved by...A  CHOICE  you have
made?   Was it...YOU   who made the choice?  Or   Was it the Father
who led you to a point in your Life...that led you to the Knowledge
of Truth?

Oh!!!  But what about those who are in Satan?

Do you not know....There is  NO  power...but of  GOD?
Satan has no power of his own.  He is but a tool of God...that will
cease to exist when his purpose is fulfilled.
If there is ANY other power...Then  GOD  is not sovereign.
Is God sovereign?
Could Satan torment Job...without Gods permission?  Was Satan limited
in the extent of his torment?
Just as it was the Lord who sent Moses to free the people...It was also
the Lord who hardened Pharoahs heart...to deny Moses.
There is NO power...but of...GOD.

1 Cor 5:5  To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the
Flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Yes, Satan destroys.   Yes, Satan torments.   And in doing so...MANY
are led to Christ.

The Father has a destination for each of us.  It is His  WILL that we
reach this destination.   Like Jonah , who God wanted to go to Nineveh
We can either...Go willingly...in accordance with Gods WILL...
Or...We can enter the belly of a big fish...and suffer...until...OUR
will is changed...and then ...go to Nineveh.

1 Cor 3:13-15   Every mans work shall be made manifest; for the day
shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by FIRE ; and the Fire
shall try every mans work of what sort it is
14...  If any mans work abide which he hath built there upon, he shall
receive a reward
15...  If any mans work shall be burned , he shall suffer loss , but
he himself shall be saved ; yet so as by Fire

This is the...CLEANSING  Fire of God    

Mal 3:3  He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver

How does a silver refiner purify the silver?  He holds it in the
flames...burning away all impurities...until...He can see his own
image in the work.  Glory to God

MANY...read in the scriptures...That it is Gods      
      
                           W I L L  

that  NONE should perish  

MANY...pray...     Thy
  
                          W I L L

BE DONE


and MANY say," Its a shame that it wont be that way "

They say it with ... their words     They say it with...their doubts
Where is their Faith?
You have seen many scriptures that speak of Gods plan for  ALL
In the beginning...God said...LET US MAKE MAN...IN OUR IMAGE
Is 46:10  Declaring the end...from the beginning...My council
shall stand , and I will do all my pleasure.


1 Cor 3:15  If any mans work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss,
But he himself shall be saved; yet so as by Fire
1 Cor 5:5  Deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the
Flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus.

Some call  HELL    The Lake of Fire     Is it?

Rev 20:14   And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This
is the second death.
Notice that death and hell are together.  Death and the abode of the
Dead...are often linked in scripture.   But.... Is   HELL....being
thrown into HELL ?   Therefore the lake of fire is not the same as Hell

Look at Rev 20:13   ... death and hell delivered up the dead which
were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

So... They are ALREADY in HELL?   And have not yet been judged?
Then... They are taken OUT of HELL... to be judged...To see if they
should be cast into HELL?    HUH???   How does that work?  Does it make
sense to you?

Dont let the Mother of Harlots or her prostitute daughters deceive you.  Dont be caught up in
the CONFUSION which is BABYLON    Babylon means...confusion
The Lord says ... Come OUT from her.

Search the Spirit of Truth that the Father has placed within you.
Know the PEACE of the FATHER who...IS.... LOVE
Agape... UNCONDITIONAL   LOVE      Stop putting...conditions on it.
Enter into HIS rest      Be  STILL   and     K N O W    that  HE  is
G O D
Is God...Love?   1 John 4:8
Is it righteous to to try and bring others to Christ...through
FEAR tactics?   1 John 4:18  There is no fear in Love; but perfect
love casteth out fear: because F E A R  hath   T O R M E N T .
He that feareth is not made perfect in Love.

Here we have...FEAR and TORMENT linked together.  Is it...of GOD...
or...of LOVE...to instill these things upon our brethren?
Are these the qualities of GODs nature that we are to show others?

1 Cor 13: 7,8   LOVE... "beareth all things, believeth all things,
hopeth all things, endureth all things    Love never fails"
If LOVE never fails....and GOD  I S   Love ....  Shall He fail?

1 Peter 1:20  says that Jesus was " foreordained before the foundation
of the world"
The Father, before He began creation ...looked ahead...and made
provision for His children.  HE planned it...from the beginning.
Did HE plan...The ETERNAL TORMENT of billions?
For one of US to plan such a thing...would be considered sadistic
and abominable.  Do we DARE assign such traits upon  GOD ?

Does Satan have a never ending shrine to his victory?  
                 or
Did Christ defeat the Devil?

HELL...as it is believed to be...and ETERNAL TORMENT...would be an
everlasting monument to Satan and his under minding of Gods Will.
An ETERNAL shrine to the influence and power of Satan. Will such a
thing exist?
Let the Spirit of TRUTH and LOVE guide you through the maze of
CONFUSION that is MANs TRADITION.

" Beware lest any man spoil you through PHILOSOPHY and VAIN DECEIT
After the TRADITION of MEN, after the rudiments ( elementary teachings)
of the World, and not after Christ"  Col 2:8

Perfect peace....to each of you
 
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