How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 Philosophy 101
 Does perfect exist?
 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Does perfect exist?

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


0 posted 11-18-2004 09:00 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal


is there anything in or of this universe/life that truly meets the definition of 'perfect'? A broad topic but it will lead to another question, for the time being i'm just curious to read you responses.
Copperbell
Senior Member
since 11-08-2003
Posts 952


1 posted 11-18-2004 09:15 PM       View Profile for Copperbell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Copperbell

You've got me thinking - I will post later

[This message has been edited by Copperbell (11-18-2004 10:11 PM).]

Michael
Moderator
Member Ascendant
since 08-13-99
Posts 6333
California


2 posted 11-18-2004 11:35 PM       View Profile for Michael   Email Michael   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michael

You mean besides the '72 Miami Dolphins?
Skyfyre
Senior Member
since 08-15-99
Posts 1966
Sitting in Michael's Lap


3 posted 11-18-2004 11:57 PM       View Profile for Skyfyre   Email Skyfyre   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Skyfyre

I've had a few perfect moments in my life.

The birth of my children, for instance.

Oh, sure, I was in pain - bleeding and torn in a few places, groggy and thirsty and exhausted, and looking every bit of it - heck, my eyes even got leaky on me, and I NEVER used to get choked up about anything.

Nevertheless, that first glimpse of my daughter's, and later my son's, tiny face ...

Perfection.  No doubt in my mind.

muted
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 01-15-2004
Posts 3021
Elapsing, Eclipsing, Evolving


4 posted 11-19-2004 02:34 AM       View Profile for muted   Email muted   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for muted

perception defines perfection.
but you know that
Susan Caldwell
Member Rara Avis
since 12-27-2002
Posts 8464
Florida


5 posted 11-19-2004 08:37 AM       View Profile for Susan Caldwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Susan Caldwell

Well, my points have already been made.

A newborn baby is perfection, to me.

So far, in this life, I have found nothing else to be perfect.  

Now if it's a perfect woman you are looking for, well, I am as good as it gets, so call me...  

"cast me gently into the morning, for the night has been unkind"
~Sarah McLachlan~

SEA
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 5 Tours
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 01-18-2000
Posts 24152
with you


6 posted 11-19-2004 08:53 AM       View Profile for SEA   Email SEA   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for SEA

I like what Muted said...it is in how we personally define "perfect". Kind of that 'eye of the beholder' type of a thing.
Dark Angel
Member Patricius
since 08-04-99
Posts 10270


7 posted 11-19-2004 05:22 PM       View Profile for Dark Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Dark Angel

I'm with Dawn and Sea

into this night i wonder, it's morning that i dread, another day of knowing of, the path i fear to tread.
~Sarah McLachlan~

Copperbell
Senior Member
since 11-08-2003
Posts 952


8 posted 11-21-2004 11:39 AM       View Profile for Copperbell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Copperbell

perfect: 1. complete in all respects; flawless 2. excellent, as in skill or quality 3. completely accurate 4. utter, sheer, absolute ..... Webster's New World Dictionary

3. completely accurate:

I think the Earth meets the definition of perfect.  

From the angle of its tilt to the exact measurement to its orbit around the sun to the currents in the ocean that keep it from becoming stagnant, the Earth is precise.  And precise in such a way that we could not exist if certain things were only slightly altered.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


9 posted 11-23-2004 05:47 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Powers and weights, densities and amounts
All are the core, all are the perfect cause
Compounded anyway - everything counts
And is a maker and breaker of laws.
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


10 posted 11-23-2004 08:58 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

YES. Perfect exists.

It's when we apply our standards and ideals to what is, considering in hopes, what could be, that imperfection as a perception is born.

But then, isn't that the impetus of evolution?

grin

Excellent question Raph...and didn't we discuss this before? My memory is imperfect.

;(
Marge Tindal
Deputy Moderator 5 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Empyrean
since 11-06-1999
Posts 43042
Florida's Foreverly Shores


11 posted 11-23-2004 09:31 PM       View Profile for Marge Tindal   Email Marge Tindal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Marge Tindal's Home Page   View IP for Marge Tindal


Oh yes, I certainly believe so~


~*When the heart grieves over what it has lost,
the spirit rejoices over what it has left.
- Sufi epigram <))><

Email noles1@totcon.com
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


12 posted 11-23-2004 10:21 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Some words from Latin: (see Wheelock's Latin)


Per: [preposition] through
     [prefix] throughly, completly, very

Factum: deed, act, acheivement

Facere: to make, to do, to accomplish

Perficere: to do thoroughly, accomplish, bring about


Bona facta  "good deeds"

Per bona facta  "through good deeds"

Mala facta  "bad deeds"

Per mala facta  "through bad deeds"
Krawdad
Member Elite
since 01-03-2001
Posts 2627


13 posted 11-24-2004 12:12 AM       View Profile for Krawdad   Email Krawdad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Krawdad

Raph,

Interesting question, but lame, if you don't mind me saying so, since you didn't define "perfect".  But then, that is a methodology.

A couple of curious responses too.

Karen's perked my interest:
"But then, isn't that the impetus of evolution?"
Well, no, not at all.  Evolution has nothing to do with perfection, or vice versa.  But that should lead to another thread?

To draw from investigations in particle physics, "perfect" is perhaps not observable.  On the other hand, there may be an argument that could be made for mathematics.
Any mathematicians in the house?

Other than that, "perfect" could be defined as something, or anything, that fully meets one's expectations, which is, I think, what most of the replies are getting at.

e
Mysteria
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Laureate
since 03-07-2001
Posts 19652
British Columbia, Canada


14 posted 11-24-2004 01:57 AM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

Sure does, but probably only to the person defining its definition Raph.  To me a small hand in mine is absolutely pure perfection!  To someone else it could be a kiss, a look, a diamond, and so on.  So many things in life depend on the expectations we put on them to be "perfect."  True perfection comes when you finally let that guard down a tad, to see beyond the first layer, and so I believe it is all in the definition.  Convenez-vous?
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


15 posted 11-24-2004 05:11 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Ah, Krawdaddy!

*beaming at you*

Let me think about how to answer you, as this question hinges on another question of my own.

Let's suppose for a second, that I actually believed my answer, that everything is perfect, right now.

Let's just say I can look in the mirror, and see past my various neuroses, and I say to myself there, "Karen? You are an absolutely perfect being. Don't change a damned thing!"

(Trust me, it's a stretch for me, too.)

But let's just suppose...

What would compel me to reach for more, then?

Like a baseball player on a winning streak, I tend to stagnate (perhaps superstitiously?) in the stench of the same worn socks--and I smile here thinking of a quote from the movie "A League of Their Own", whereupon the coach inquired of his star pitcher who did just that--

"So what? We all have to suffer?" as he held his nose and waved her stench away.

To offer another analogy, I recently was asked by the carpenter who renovated my home,

"What would you do with the house of your dreams?"

I know, as a certainty, I would end up changing something.

Oh, not right away, no. But as I live and change, I'd want my surroundings to reflect that.

As for the evolution question? I maintain that somebody must have said/thought: "This sucks. There has got to be a better way."

Necessity being the mother of invention, I have to question the acceptance of the states of perfection, as it seem to indicate to me, contentment, which I perceive to be the antithesis of evolution.

And if you're wondering what my question of kin would be, it is this:

"How do I do better without using the pain of being a malcontent as my impetus, because of course, a state of perfection indicates the ultimate end-resulting satisfaction?"

Or to put it another way, what makes someone leave an oasis?

("To infinity, and beyond!" --Toy Story)



So I suppose I have to amend my answer, that yes, perfection exists, and it is NOW.

And NOW is decidedly temporary.



sheesh. It's after four a.m. here, I do hope I'm making sense...
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


16 posted 11-24-2004 06:56 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Or to put it another way, what makes someone leave an oasis?

Unspoken assumption #1: We will be content in the face of perfection.

Unspoken assumption #2: We want things to be perfect.



p.s. You're not talking about evolution, Karen, which is a natural process requiring no decisions. Genes and chromosomes don't "decide" to adapt or mutate, it just happens, and the result is evolution. The desire to improve a situation because "This sucks, there's got to be a better way" is usually called progress. Sometimes, it's just called divorce. In either case, it's a perception that may or may not actually reflect reality. Ultimately, though we use a lot of different ways to describe it, we are all victims of the Grass Is Greener syndrome. I doubt that would change even in a perfect world.
ice
Member Elite
since 05-17-2003
Posts 3059
Pennsylvania


17 posted 11-24-2004 09:19 AM       View Profile for ice   Email ice   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ice


"In this broad earth of ours,
Amid the measureless grossness and the slag,
Enclosed and safe within its central heart,
Nestles the seed perfection."

exert-Song of the Universal-Walt Whitman


I believe that Whitman's take on this subject is very good, he is cautious about reality but as is usual for this genius, he adds bit of the unknown world of improvable hope..a faith that the seed of perfection exists...

As for my opinion, I will accept excellence as a replacement for perfection until, and if, that seed ever sprouts..I can see and touch excellence.

Ron...
I hope this passage from Leaves Of Grass, does not get the "edited out" stamp....it is only an exert, so I feel it should pass approval...

I have used poetry as a learning tool, and quotes as examples of how I feel, written of course by much larger minds than mine, who are able to articulate my feelings in a much more dramatic way than is possible for me.


ice_________
      ><>
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


18 posted 11-24-2004 01:25 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Excerpts are fine, Ford.

Also, any poet listed in our Classical Poetry section at the main site, as certainly is the case with Whitman, has already been accepted as "copyright free." The classics belong to the world.
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


19 posted 11-24-2004 06:26 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Nodding here.

"Evolution" was indeed, a poor choice of word. Progress is much more apt, and even hopeful.

*chuckling*

The grass is greener syndrome? I submit that as incredible as it may seem, I have just discovered there are varieties of grass that do not come in carefully weighed baggies.

But personal insights aside, I'm thinking now of an instructor who taught me method in chalk pastel and charcoal. She informed me that my biggest obstacle in the pursuit of my hoped for goals as an artist, was knowing when to STOP.

*shaking my head*

I wonder now if she understood how astute an observation that was of me, in every aspect of my being.

But I still maintain that perfection exists--sometimes in the form of a perfect mess, but there it is.



But I do thank you, Ron, for the insight--it helped to shed a little light for me, as I realize my analogy is decidedly a personal problem.

Then I have to wonder, "what ain't?"



Happy Thanksgiving.

From a work in a progress.



Local Parasite
Deputy Moderator 10 Tours
Member Elite
since 11-05-2001
Posts 2929
Transylconia, Winnipeg


20 posted 11-24-2004 11:56 PM       View Profile for Local Parasite   Email Local Parasite   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Local Parasite's Home Page   View IP for Local Parasite

Reminds me of something I've been reading lately.  From Edmund Burke's "The Sublime and Beautiful" (parts in bold are my emphasis, italics are the author's)

quote:
There is another notion current, pretty closely allied to the former; that Perfection is the constituent cause of beauty. This opinion has been made to extend much farther than to sensible objects.  But in these, so far is perfection, considered as such, from being the cause of beauty; that this quality, where it is highest, in the female sex, almost always carries with it an idea of weakness and imperfection.  Women are very sensible of this; for which reason, they learn to lisp, to to totter in their walk, to counterfeit weakness, and even sickness.  In all this they are guided by nature.  Beauty in distress is much the most affecting beauty.  Blushing has little less power; and modesty in general, which is a tacit allowance of imperfection, is itself considered as an amiable quality, and certainly heightens every other that is so.


This isn't a representation of what I think, necessarily, but just something I thought I might share with a community of poets.

I think Burke's is a neat idea, that the perfect and the beautiful are not always compatible, but I think Burke really might want to rather question whether or not the things he attributes to imperfection are essentially imperfect, or whether he only considers them so based on some measurement other than an amount of beauty.

Personally, I agree with the Platonic idea that the perfect must exist, as it is something by which we measure everything else in our lives.  How could things approach perfection if it were not for a perfect, a sort of sun from which we could see everything?  It might depend on your definition of "exists."  

"God becomes as we are that we may be as he is."  ~William Blake

Juju
Member Elite
since 12-29-2003
Posts 3353
In your dreams


21 posted 11-28-2004 07:53 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

That can ONly be defined by an indivisual, because like reality, its relative. Beauty is in the Eye of the beholder


Juju
muted
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 01-15-2004
Posts 3021
Elapsing, Eclipsing, Evolving


22 posted 11-28-2004 11:36 PM       View Profile for muted   Email muted   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for muted


raphy,
im giggling now
LOL
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


23 posted 12-03-2004 01:24 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


http://judithpordon.tripod.com/poetry/id308.html

 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> Philosophy 101 >> Does perfect exist? Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors