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Satori?
| Philosophy 101 |
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Satori? |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan 
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“A monk asked Tôsu (T’ou-tzŭ ), a Zen master of the T’ang period: “ I understand that all sounds are the voice of the Buddha. Is that right?” The master said, “That is right.” The monk then proceeded: “Would not the master please stop making a noise which echoes the sound of a fermenting mass of filth?” The master thereupon struck the monk. The monk further asked “Tôsu: “Am I in the right when I understand the Buddha as asserting that all talk however trivial or derogatory, belongs to ultimate truth?” The master said, “Yes, you are in the right.” The monk went on, “May I then call you a donkey?” The master thereupon struck him. It may be necessary to explain these mondo in plain language. To conceive every sound, every noise, every utterance one makes as issuing from the fountainhead of one Reality, that is, from one God is pantheistic, I imagine. For “he givith all life, and breath and all things” (Acts 17:25); and again, “For in him we live, and move, and have our own being” (Acts 17:28). If this be the case, a Zen master’s hoarse throat echoes the melodious resonance of a voice flowing from the Buddha’s golden mouth, and even when a great teacher is decried as reminding one of an ass, the defamation must be regarded as reflecting something of ultimate truth. All forms of evil must be said somehow to be embodying what is true and good and beautiful, and to be a contribution to the perfection of Reality. To state it more concretely, bad is good, ugly is beautiful, false is true, imperfect is perfect, and also conversely. This is, indeed, the kind of reasoning in which those indulge who conceive the God-nature to be immanent in all things. Let us see how the Zen master treats this problem. It is remarkable that Tôsu put his foot right down against such intellectualist interpretations and struck his monk. The latter in all probability expected to see the master nonplussed by his statements which logically follow from his first assertion. The masterful Tôsu knew, as all Zen masters do, the uselessness of making any verbal demonstration against such a “logician.” For verbalism leads from one complication to another; there is no end to it. The only effective way, perhaps, to make such a monk as this realize the falsehood of his conceptual understanding is to strike him and let him experience within himself the meaning of the statement, “One in All and All in One.” The monk was to be awakened from his logical somnambulism. Hence Tôsu’s drastic measure.” Daisetz T. Suzuki Zen and Japanese Culture “bad is good, ugly is beautiful, false is true, imperfect is perfect, and also conversely. “ until someone throws a corpse in the middle of the room, or a lash bruised woman to be listened to as she begs to be returned to the pleasure of her master where she belongs. Have I got this right? Satori? |
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| © Copyright 2004 John Pawlik - All Rights Reserved | |||
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
It's probably not the best thing to quote D. T. Suzuki on much of anything.  |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Brad, "It's probably not the best thing to quote D. T. Suzuki on much of anything." Because? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Actually, I hope to be going to temple soon, and John, I'll be sure to ask the meaning of this. I'm afraid though, it will be well behind a few hundred other questions that I have on a list. Can I ask you directly what your belief and point is, without offense being taken? Why do you feel (and yes, I could direct this to many others here and elsewhere) a need to distance your feelings through quotation? I promise, I'll take your feelings seriously. Can you tell me, without reference to 'some other' great thinker, exactly what your point is here? Y'never know, I might think you the greater thinker. Some people need very simple language, John. I'm one of 'em, and I'm not ashamed to ask for that.  |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
serenity blaze, To tell the truth I’ve reached a point that is almost beyond feeling or strong opinion anymore, that time being and resigned to the past. I used the quotation because it coincidently, (or miraculously depending on your point of view), showed up in my reading and seemed applicable to a sense I got from another thread; that is that one can talk or write himself glibly into or out of anything, or for or against any view or value. This moment I am reminded a story. There was once in Rhode Island a very intelligent and successful artist. He came from a wealthy family and was personally handsome which further assured opportunities and successes. He was very popular. Women were more than willing to pose as his nudes which was something of a specialty. In the midst of his paradise there appeared a woman in one of his many relationships. In an uncharacteristic nude she appears sitting on a dark floor with her arms wrapped around her legs, below the knees, which are pulled up against and hiding her breasts; she sits in darkness except for a light source from directly above which dimly yet starkly illuminates her face which appears gaunt and unsmiling. No one knows exactly what happened, but sometime later she completely disappeared. Shortly thereafter, the artist closed his gallery, cut off all contact with friends and relatives and abandoned the comfort of his affluent residence to live in a one room wooden shack behind a bankrupt motel that had been converted into apartments for the indigent. He shaved off all his blond hair and went to work as a menial night janitor at the university where he had graduated with honors, which was not far away. People in the neighborhood would only occasionally see him but he kept distant, to himself, and was notably silent. He was in that situation for a number of years. One night he put a revolver in his mouth and blew the back of his head off. His filthy one room was found to be littered with empty liquor bottles, a thin stack of old canvases, (no brushes or paints), a few negatives, (including of the woman), and a large collection of valuable stocks and bonds which is all the relatives took away from the scene of his death. One of the old canvases was his youthful confident self-portrait which was very skilled except for the one ear showing which was oddly blurred and deformed. His name was George. See, that’s how my mind works these days; flying from one thing to the next. John |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Uh, because Suzuki is generally not respected in the field of Buddhist studies. To put it bluntly, he doesn't get it. One quick anecdote: In an introduction to one of Suzuki's books, it is reported that Heidegger read Suzuki and said, "That's what I've been trying to say all along" In Heidegger's notes, he says, "Not Buddhism, the opposite." The general point that all things are one distract from the very real disagreement concerning what one should do with such knowledge. Buddhism isn't exactly unified, you know. Suzuki tries to explain everything and, as a result, explains nothing. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Brad, "Daisetz T. Suzuki Zen and Japanese Culture" "Zen" on which his understanding and scholarship continues to be revered. You’ll have to show me a few sites I can read in support of an otherwise contention. John |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Thank you John, and while I may not understand how your response applies, I do understand the part about "that is how my mind works these days--flying from one thing to the next." If you can describe what my mind does as "work"--that's pretty much what my mind does too. bumblebee And Brad, I really have been invited to Temple with some friends (Doi and Chou) and I think before I investigate the philosophies, I'd like to first inhale the ritual. But trust that I will bookmark this thread. And thanks both, for answering. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I'm confused. Did you not read what I wrote? Don't give me sites. Give me aurhorities? Do you not understand? Zen means meditation. What is the proper school? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Brad, I'm not even sure if you're addressing me, but I tell you what? All I'm looking for here is a bit of peace in the foxhole, preferably without the bullet in my head. sigh I'm that frigging tired, yanno? and I don't mean that as hostile, I don't mean that as anything. I just want other people to quit trying to kill MY people. Peace in a foxhole. That's all I'm asking... |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Then tell this guy to stop playing Buddhism. It's that simple. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
smile. John? Stop playing Buddhism. (I swear Brad, I'm willing to try anything at this point.) and I really should go sleep...that might be enough at this point, huh?  |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Brad, Seem to be getting worked up. And it further seems there’s a disagreement as to Suzuki’s merit: “Zen Buddhism by DAISETZ T. SUZUKI Amazon.com The premier metaphysician of the 20th century, Martin Heidegger, once said in regard to D. T. Suzuki, "If I understand this man correctly, this is what I have been trying to say in all my writings." Roman Catholic writer Thomas Merton, analytical psychologist Carl Jung, social psychologist Erich Fromm, avant-garde musician John Cage, writer and social critic Alan Watts, poet Gary Snyder -- all influential in their own rights, claim a debt to Mr. Suzuki and his writings, the most representative of which are gathered here in Zen Buddhism. An intellectual understanding of Zen begins with this book.” http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/03 8548349X/qid=1100823608/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-1639118-9779910?v=glance&s=books John P.S. There’s also a drifting away from the purpose of the quote. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Yeah, maybe a little. But c'mon, it bothers me that I point out the Heidegger reference, tell you it's false, and then you proceed to use it as an example of the respect this man deserves? Look at those names again. There's not one Buddhist scholar among them. It's kind of like quoting Ezra Pound as an expert on Chinese language. But fair enough, I got myself into an argument in many ways very similar to this one about a year ago. I said some nice things about Deborah Tannen, and a sociolinguist jumped on my case for it. Now, I still think Tannen has said some useful things, but given the popular nature of her work, I have no doubt that she doesn't have the whole story. If you find something useful in his work, go for it. But don't use him as an example of Buddhism as a whole. There isn't such a thing. |
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