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Passions in Poetry

Being A Significant Other

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Huan Yi
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Waukegan


0 posted 11-06-2004 04:53 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


Under what circumstances
should a woman consider committing adultery
with a married man as acceptable or
moral behavior?

I didnít have to go far
for this question to pop up.

John
Poet deVine
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1 posted 11-06-2004 06:31 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

Why is the question about a woman only? You've skewed it so the immorality of adultery is a given. There can be no answer acceptable to you this way.
serenity blaze
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2 posted 11-06-2004 08:40 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

"I didnít have to go far
for this question to pop up."

I'm confused.

(again--so my apologies on that)

But did you mean that you didn't have to go far in a personal relationship for the question to pop up?

As to an answer, all I can say is that as a woman who happens to be someone's significant other, it would be extremely helpful for me if I felt significant.

As for the morality of the desire, I don't have much of an answer to that either. I suppose anything can be rationalized (justified) but I'm the sort who can't lie when asked a direct question. Even if I could say the words, my eyes would tell the story.

Brad
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3 posted 11-06-2004 10:06 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Serenity,

And you would be right.

iliuuuibguibeiyuvbyvdyuviuoiinvoithofbio9
utituiobigui7bgo98g98h98nb7eg87fg6goh7988

--and that's what my daughter has to say about it.

Huan Yi
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Posts 6334
Waukegan


4 posted 11-06-2004 11:09 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Poet deVine,

ďYou've skewed it so the immorality of adultery is a given.Ē

Please argue that it isnít.  Letís see the responses.

John

P.S. To serenity blaze,  another co-worker situation.
Somehow the office seems to be neutral territory
in which someone, (in this case a woman), can
broadcast.

Ron
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5 posted 11-07-2004 02:32 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Please argue that it isnít (a given).

LOL. Isn't that a little inane, John?

ANY argument removes something from the status of given.
Denise
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6 posted 11-07-2004 07:05 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I can't think of any circumstances where it wouldn't be immoral. I can think of curcumstances where it would be understandable, but still, the bottom line, still immoral. The guy's wife will be betrayed, as well as the woman's husband or partner, if she has one. Someone will get hurt, other than the woman and the man directly involved. They will undoubtedly be hurt as well, but I think the greater consideration in this matter should be for the ones who will be hurt who have no say in the matter, the innocents in the situation.
Stephanos
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7 posted 11-07-2004 06:59 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

John,

I can't think of any circumstance where a woman committing adultery with a married man would be moral.  The whole question revolves around the rather simple question of whether adultery is an immoral action or not.  


Stephen.
Stephanos
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8 posted 11-07-2004 07:06 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Ron:

quote:
ANY argument removes something from the status of given.

But can't we can all rationalize actions and tendencies which are contrary to very obvious conclusions (even against what we know to be our own best judgement- therein lies the guilt), things which most of society would call "given"?  

I think what John is asking is, can adultery ever have a sound defense?


And yet, l'm still not sure why he's asking.


John, why do you ask?


Stephen.

Huan Yi
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9 posted 11-07-2004 10:26 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Stephen,

Simple curiosity brought on by an office incident.

A very long time ago, I was with a woman who
was absolutely incensed with her friends for their
involvements in such affairs which, to her mind
at least, they accepted if not sought openly.
There had to be some rationale on their part.
It was so often an experience to the woman
that she had little faith in marriage being able to withstand
such an environment, (she also had little confidence
in any manís ability to decline any opportunity
for infidelity freely offered).

John
Stephanos
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10 posted 11-07-2004 10:38 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

"The most endangerd species

the honest man

will still survive annihilation"


(RUSH, Permanent Waves)

By the Grace of God may I add.


Stephen


(Hey if Brad can quote Neil , so can I)
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
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Waukegan


11 posted 11-08-2004 12:43 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

ďAt last the good life came, good sleep, bright fruit,
And Lazarus betrayed him to the rest,

Who killed him, sticking feathers in his flesh
To mock him.  They placed with him in his grave

Sour wine to warn him, an empty book to read;
And over it they set a jagged sign,

Epitaphium to his death, which read,
The Good Man Has No Shape, as if they knew.Ē

Wallace Stevens


LeeJ
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12 posted 11-08-2004 12:54 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

I believe if a woman or man is considering adultry, they should think about everyone else involved in the stead of gratification...b/c when you do this, the hurt is not only irrepairable, but also can scar for years to come...there is no time when anyone should consider committing adultry...if it's that bad, then leave the spouse first.

Besides, even if the person would leave their spouse for you, could you trust them after what they did with you to someone else?  

Dating married people is called cheating...its a lie...downright irresponsible, and involves so many more people then just the two????????

a woman/man knows when a candidate for marriage is trustworthy....when one puts all other desires aside....

If you know what you want and need in a spouse, you make a mental list, and you don't compromise those beliefs simply to have someone in your life, or in bed. To me, infidelity is unacceptable...and perhaps your lady friend has just not met anyone yet who is of her beliefs.  

I know many married men who are trustworthy and consider their wives/girlfriends way to precious to chance loosing.  

  

Skyfyre
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13 posted 11-08-2004 08:40 PM       View Profile for Skyfyre   Email Skyfyre   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Skyfyre

It is always immoral to date when you are married.  I would add, though, that in my opinion the burden of guilt is more centered on the cheating husband than his "significant other."

Acceptable is a highly subjective term.  Acceptable to whom?
Huan Yi
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Waukegan


14 posted 11-08-2004 08:49 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Skyfyre,

Acceptable to the woman consciously considering
engaging in adultery with a married man.

John

Skyfyre
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15 posted 11-08-2004 09:10 PM       View Profile for Skyfyre   Email Skyfyre   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Skyfyre

In that case, it depends on the woman and the situation.  Clearly, it is not an unknown occurance, so some woman somewhere must have found it acceptable.

I had a friend in college who would only date married men.  She had very little faith in the sanctity of any relationship and considered marriage to be God's biggest joke on the world.  If you asked her to explain her attraction for married men, besides the usual "unattainable and taboo, therefore desirable" aspect she would note that when she was dating a married man, she never had to wonder if he was cheating on her.  She knew - and that knowledge provided her some comfort, because she would never be shocked by finding out that "her man" had been unfaithful.

Not saying she was right or wrong; it's just one view I've seen on the subject.
Huan Yi
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Waukegan


16 posted 11-08-2004 09:37 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Skyfyre,

"Not saying she was right or wrong. . ."

Why not?

John
Stephanos
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17 posted 11-08-2004 10:38 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
Not saying she was right or wrong; it's just one view I've seen on the subject.



She's helping men to break the solemn oaths they made to their wives on their wedding day.  Those men are betrayers to their life partners.  What's the hesitation to just say it's wrong?  It's plain as the nose on your face.


She also betrays her own view, by saying that she is offended by the "unsanctity" of marriage ... and yet makes no efforts to work toward or restore that sanctity?  That's hypocritical.  


Stephen.
Stephanos
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18 posted 11-08-2004 10:49 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

John,

I must commend you, your posting of 4 or 5 threads at a time really helped the drought here on Philosophy 101.  At least there's something to talk about now.  


Stephen.
Ron
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19 posted 11-09-2004 12:04 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
She's helping men to break the solemn oaths they made to their wives on their wedding day. Those men are betrayers to their life partners. What's the hesitation to just say it's wrong? It's plain as the nose on your face.

It's wong.

Er, sorry, but I have a cold and the nose on my face is plain stuffed.

More seriously, if you are going to pass judgment on those doing it, Stephen, shouldn't you also be holding court for those fantasizing about it? To condemn one more than the other, it seems, would be ... uh, what was that word you used again?


Stephanos
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20 posted 11-09-2004 12:23 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

absolutely Ron,

the fantasizing is wrong too ... and often leads to the other.

A spade is a spade.


But I'm not holding court for anyone.  Meting out sentences, and declaring that some things are definitely wrong are two different things.  A distinction you seldom seem to give expression to in your posts.


And we can't even fight against lust in our own hearts unless we say it's really wrong, for others and ourselves.



Stephen.
Skyfyre
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21 posted 11-09-2004 04:02 AM       View Profile for Skyfyre   Email Skyfyre   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Skyfyre

quote:
Why not?


Because I don't apply my moral standards to others unless they ask me to (she didn't, because she knew what I would say) or unless their actions affect me in some way.  I didn't know the guys she dated or their wives, or I may have felt compelled to enlighten the wives.

What she did wasn't illegal, and frankly it was none of my business, so it isn't my place to judge.
Ron
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22 posted 11-09-2004 10:04 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
But I'm not holding court for anyone. Meting out sentences, and declaring that some things are definitely wrong are two different things. A distinction you seldom seem to give expression to in your posts.

That's because I see no such distinction, Stephen. The difference between public condemnation and public flogging is in degree, not kind.

I'm still working out the vagaries of right and wrong for myself. That's enough for me.
LeeJ
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23 posted 11-09-2004 11:39 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

public flogging is one thing Ron, but, what is happening here in this time is that everyone is deeming it acceptable...I have to wonder about the mentality and concept of people when a show like "Desprate Housewives" has a following of 23 million...that in itself frightens the hell out of me....what society deems entertainment?????  And like many shows, it is suggesting that that kind of behavior is acceptable. It promotes negative response and actions, instead of dealing with what could be little problems...

Public flogging or not, someone's got to stand up for some sort of morals and thumbsdown to aggrivated moral assult.

Again....no one is being asked to consider first the many hearts they hurt by such irresponsible behavior...

Do I sound like an old fuddy guys...Good..cause it's wrong...wrong and an intentional assassination of relationships...trust...belief

if the public doesn't get it soon and reverse this damage, where will it end?
With millions of broken hearts?  Come on guys, you write poetry, and understand the sensitivity of this subject and I'm certain that many of you have unfortuately experienced this.  We are becoming a society which laughs at what we should deem as mature adults, immoral and corrupt.

And again....I'm not judging anyone, I'm judging bad behavior!  Which is what more people should do...we're promoting through television that it's ok to act like this...and it's not ok...to rip out peoples hearts, chew them up and spit them out....and that's what' s happening to families...is it no wonder children are confused when families become so dysfunctional?  Is it any wonder teens are cutting themselves...committing suicide?  

No one seems to think about these things before...talk about self absorpstion?  

If you wanna mess around, then have the respect if not for yourself, for your families, to leave your spouse first!

My goodness, doesn't anyone think about the children and the confusing signals they're being sent.  How'd you like to sit down and tell your child...mommie or daddy's having an affair? Talk about taking away innocence?
Destroying someone's life..for what, a moment of excitement?  

I'm speaking very emotionally about this b/c it is a subject which should be addressed...by millions....and has nothing to do with religion...just some respect for self, and others connected whom will be destroyed by such permissivness?

Ron, I really believe if more people would deem this behavior unacceptable (public flaggings) perhaps we'd get our ship restored and ready to sail again?

I dunno?  What the answer is, but this is indeed how I feel and firmly stand by it.


Skyfyre
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24 posted 11-09-2004 02:17 PM       View Profile for Skyfyre   Email Skyfyre   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Skyfyre

I don't think I've read anyone that said it wasn't wrong.

My point is that you have to pick your battles.  Humans are flawed beings and are going to screw up - and touchy though this subject is, it isn't a heinous crime against humanity.

Personally, if my husband found himself tempted to sleep with someone else, or even allowed himself to be seduced by her, I would consider that relationship to be over whether he broke it off with me or not.  Whose fault would I make it?  His, of course; he was the one who made the vows, not her.  Not that I'd be inviting her to any tupperware parties.  

There's really no point in crusading against something like this.  You could make just as good a case against getting married when you aren't completely committed to one another.  That's "wrong" too, correct?  Is the 50%+ divorce rate in the US due to all those immoral women destroying marriages by sleeping with other womens' husbands?  I somehow doubt it.

Which, would you say, does more damage to the institution?
 
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