How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 Philosophy 101
 Being A Significant Other   [ Page: 1  2  3  ]
 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Being A Significant Other

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


25 posted 11-09-2004 02:32 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

I would answer your question by replying
infidelity to self

and yes it is a crime...when innocent bystanders could be scarred for life by such selfish acts....I know, as I was on both side of this...and it was not just about two people, but all who love me.  I deem it a crime that so many people feel so little worth for the other half and the children.
I also deem it a crime for those people involved with one another, b/c what goes around does eventually come around...in guilt, the destruction of the lives of others, infidelity to your life, harmony, substance....it's a difficult lesson to learn, which some treat as if it were a game
I've known of many people who were shot b/c of this...
Maybe not a crime for encarsaration, but a crime of the heart or hearts.

Cloud 9
Senior Member
since 11-05-2004
Posts 988
Ca


26 posted 11-09-2004 03:43 PM       View Profile for Cloud 9   Email Cloud 9   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cloud 9

Amen LeeJ! I couldn't of said it better myself.
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


27 posted 11-09-2004 04:11 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Ron:
quote:
That's because I see no such distinction, Stephen. The difference between public condemnation and public flogging is in degree, not kind.



You need look no further than Jesus.  Remember how he said to the woman caught in adultery "Go and SIN no more."?  And at the same time, "Neither do I condemn you".  Gee there's the very same paradox you said couldn't be.  You're usually fine with paradoxes Ron, I don't know why you're particularly offended by this one.  And before you say, "Well that's Jesus after all, not us."  , I would point out to you that his followers went on to perpetuate the same apparantly contradictory views and instructions in their epistles to the Churches.  Namely, "Speak the truth with love."


Failing to call a spade a spade is not somehow more loving, for that avoidance of the issue is it?


Remember, the mistake of the Pharisees was their intent and plan of action, not their doctrine.  



Stephen.
  
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


28 posted 11-09-2004 04:21 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Skyfire:
quote:
There's really no point in crusading against something like this.  You could make just as good a case against getting married when you aren't completely committed to one another.  That's "wrong" too, correct?  Is the 50%+ divorce rate in the US due to all those immoral women destroying marriages by sleeping with other womens' husbands?  I somehow doubt it.
Which, would you say, does more damage to the institution?



But isn't that like asking which half of the scissors does the cutting?
Crusading implies, meanspirited agression.  But I think there is a need for vocalizing.  Why?  Because we live in a culture now where it's rationalized in so many ways, and there are many who simply haven't heard the older voice of reason and moral rightness.  It's one of those unpopular truths which, though difficult to hear sometimes, can help keep people awake and aware that the trap is a trap.


Of course, you are right, this is the negative side of the coin, which does little without the positive to fill the void.  "Don't commit adultery" isn't enough.  "Learn to value fidelity and learn to have good thriving marriages", can fill the gap.   And there's much to be said positively on those subjects.    


Stephen
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


29 posted 11-09-2004 05:50 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Stephen said: She also betrays her own view, by saying that she is offended by the "unsanctity" of marriage ... and yet makes no efforts to work toward or restore that sanctity? That's hypocritical.


quote:
Stephen said: "Speak the truth with love."

My mistake, Stephen. I'm afraid I mistook your love for indignation and anger.

If we are to address the truth with love, guys, we should probably talk about a few related issues. For example, since thinking about a sin is just as bad as committing a sin, Western women should stop dressing as if that's ALL they ever think about. The Muslim concept of hijab is therefore right, while bare bellies and naked heads is wong. Er, I mean, wrong.

Of course, we also shouldn't forget our Catholic brothers, either. Anyone here divorced? Sorry, but you, too, are adulters and just as wong (arrg) as someone sneaking off to the nearest Motel 8.

Shall I continue? My Amish neighbors still have a few words of wisdom about computers and technology you might enjoy?

People who don't believe in marriage, hijab, or til-death-do-us-part are never going to be convinced by self-righteous anger. I think the best anyone can do is decide for themselves what is right and wrong and then try to set a good example. If you decide well, your life will be rich and others will want to follow your lead. If you decide poorly, your life will suck and no one in their right mind will choose to share your misery.

"I don't choose to do that" has the potential to change people.

"You're wrong and a hypocrite to boot," usually doesn't.

LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


30 posted 11-10-2004 10:03 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

People who don't believe in marriage, hijab, or til-death-do-us-part are never going to be convinced by self-righteous anger. I think the best anyone can do is decide for themselves what is right and wrong and then try to set a good example. If you decide well, your life will be rich and others will want to follow your lead. If you decide poorly, your life will suck and no one in their right mind will choose to share your misery.

"I don't choose to do that" has the potential to change people.

"You're wrong and a hypocrite to boot," usually doesn't.
I firmly agree...well said
nakdthoughts
Member Laureate
since 10-29-2000
Posts 19275
Between the Lines


31 posted 11-10-2004 02:32 PM       View Profile for nakdthoughts   Email nakdthoughts   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nakdthoughts

Personally, if my husband found himself tempted to sleep with someone else, or even allowed himself to be seduced by her, I would consider that relationship to be over whether he broke it off with me or not.  Whose fault would I make it?  His, of course; he was the one who made the vows, not her.  Not that I'd be inviting her to any tupperware parties.   

~smiling~ only because I have experienced this after a 30 year marriage...and would never do the same to any woman as was done to me...so like Lee, I would say why not leave the marriage/divorce/then go  for the lusto (tongue in cheek)and funny how they come back after it wasn't all they thought it to be....

M

oh..and don't get me into the discussion about porn...I am too opinionated on it!!!
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


32 posted 11-11-2004 11:00 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
If we are to address the truth with love, guys, we should probably talk about a few related issues.

I agree.

quote:
For example, since thinking about a sin is just as bad as committing a sin

Your premise is correct.

quote:
Western women should stop dressing as if that's ALL they ever think about.

So far so good.  Conclusion #1, correct (when western women do dress in this way, that is).

quote:
The Muslim concept of hijab is therefore right, while bare bellies and naked heads is wong. Er, I mean, wrong.

This extreme conclusion does not follow from your premise.  (Here let me get you a tissue ... Oh, you were born without a nose??)        

quote:
Of course, we also shouldn't forget our Catholic brothers, either. Anyone here divorced? Sorry, but you, too, are adulters and just as wong (arrg) as someone sneaking off to the nearest Motel 8.

You're right.  Though we don't want to fail in our compassion, the subject of divorce is now soft pedaled in our churches and communities.  What kinds of things did Jesus say about divorce?  Were they closer to "I'm okay, you're okay", or to his cousin John's style?


quote:
Shall I continue?


Shall you?  I would be shocked if you didn't paint every possible grey, in every thread, to prove there's no such thing as black and white.  That's why I won't even comment on the Amish one.  

  
quote:
People who don't believe in marriage, hijab, or til-death-do-us-part are never going to be convinced by self-righteous anger.


Perhaps you're right Ron.  Perhaps I should examine my heart on these issues.  I don't want to come across as always angry.  And I certainly don't want to be a hindrance to anyone coming to know the truth ... or give anyone the idea that I'm pretending to be above moral struggles and sins.  


But there's a constant theme of yours I am skeptical of, and it's this ... that love and public moral disapproval can't mix.  Some of the most loving and inspiring people, biblically speaking, have decried things publicly, and had more love in their pinky fingers, than in you and I put together.  

What do you think of John the Baptist?  Wouldn't he be a biggot in your eyes?  A moralist thug?  self righteous?  He was one of whom Jesus said was "more than a prophet".  Of course you could say that I am no John the Baptist.  But couldn't you follow the wisdom and consistency of your Lord, and at least say "Do what they say, but not what they do" when encountering a teaching that's correct in the mouth of someone whose integrity you doubt?  And the thing about Jesus and the Pharisees was this:  He really knew what wrongs they were doing, he didn't just assume.


It just so happens that we live in a time when both moral words and examples are lacking.  I want to be right in both, not just one.  


Stephen.
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


33 posted 11-12-2004 12:21 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
But couldn't you follow the wisdom and consistency of your Lord, and at least say "Do what they say, but not what they do" when encountering a teaching that's correct in the mouth of someone whose integrity you doubt?

It has never been your integrity I doubted, Stephen.
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


34 posted 11-12-2004 05:23 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I'm having a difficult time understanding why anyone but the parties concerned would be concerned.
KristieSue
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Senior Member
since 01-31-2003
Posts 1555
PA, US


35 posted 11-12-2004 05:52 AM       View Profile for KristieSue   Email KristieSue   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit KristieSue's Home Page   View IP for KristieSue

I slept with a married man, but I didn't know he was married until afterwards.  Was I guilty of causing him to cheat?  In my eyes, yes.  If I believe in the way I was raised (which I do) I shouldn't have been having sex in the first place.  Had I respected the laws of sex/marriage I wouldnt have been in that situation.  However, I'm not perfect and we all make mistakes... It took me a while to get over the fact that he'd done what he did but I learned.  

"Painting is poetry which is seen and not heard, and poetry is a painting which is heard but not seen." ~Leonardo da Vinci

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


36 posted 11-12-2004 06:49 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

serenity blaze,

“I'm having a difficult time understanding why anyone but the parties concerned would be concerned.”

Because, the parties concerned tend to talk
about it to others whose own outlook can or
is influenced.  As I, in my example, said before:

“I was with a woman who
was absolutely incensed with her friends for their
involvements in such affairs which, to her mind
at least, they accepted if not sought openly. . .
It was so often an experience to the woman
that she had little faith in marriage being able to withstand
such an environment, (she also had little confidence
in any man’s ability to decline any opportunity
for infidelity freely offered).”

John

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


37 posted 11-12-2004 06:55 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

KristieSue,

"It took me a while to get over the fact that he'd done what he did but I learned."

Did you part with him?  If yes, was it
for that and how long after?

John
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


38 posted 11-12-2004 06:59 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I'm assuming we're talking about adults here.

Adults, I maintain, are responsible for their own actions.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


39 posted 11-12-2004 01:59 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

serenity blaze,

The woman I was speaking of was
twenty-two at the time and had been
at her workplace less than two years.
The infidelities spoken of there had a direct
and severe impact on her view of marriage
and fidelity within any relationship between
a man and woman.

John
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


40 posted 11-12-2004 03:09 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

John?

She'll figure it out. Or she won't.

I don't see what the problem is, m'self.

I'm thinking in particular of a situation, wherein my girlfriend found out her husband was having an affair. She wanted me to go with her to confront the woman.

"Why?" I asked her. "She didn't break any vows to you--she might not even know that you exist," I pointed out.

My point is (and has been throughout other threads) that marriage is defined by the participants of each particular union. They do not have to adhere to a religious or moral code of our understanding or acceptance. The rest? Well, I suppose it's interesting enough diversion at the water cooler, but that is all it is.

I'll spare ya the "just my humble opinion."

OH.

Guess I won't.

Maybe next time.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


41 posted 11-12-2004 10:37 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

serenity blaze,

“She'll figure it out. Or she won't.

I don't see what the problem is, m'self.”

That is a "winner’s" stance.

John
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


42 posted 11-13-2004 11:35 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
I'm assuming we're talking about adults here.
Adults, I maintain, are responsible for their own actions.

Karen, that is absolutely true.  But why isn't it still okay to discuss whether or not actions are good or bad, helpful or destructive, wise or unwise, etc ...?  If we shouldn't do that, ever, then a large branch of philosophy (ethics) would be ruled out.  


And since adults can think and do some very childish things, and children can often be as wise as any adult, the word "adult" doesn't automatically exempt our actions / philosophies from criticism / discussion.


quote:
They do not have to adhere to a religious or moral code of our understanding or acceptance.



I think that though we can say we don't "adhere" to any particular moral or religious standard ... we still get hurt when these things happen, evidence to me that we don't create the standard.  We're under it, not over it.  

Stephen.  
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


43 posted 11-13-2004 08:41 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I feel like I missed something here.

I didn't intend to imply that discussion was somehow off limits. (Um, I showed up for this one, didn't I?)

and I'm not sure what is meant by "a winner's stance" either. *scratching my head*

So I guess I am officially confused.

But I'm still not going to ask the young lady in question to answer to me for her behavior.

So yep, I'm puzzled.

I know many married couples who have "agreements" regarding what constitutes disloyalty/adultery, and I'm not going to argue with them either. It's simply none of my business.


I have absolutely no idea what defines a marriage between other couples, and I am just beginning to understand that my own is redefined daily as evidenced by me and my husband. And even in that particular situation, he may decide that there is a rational reason to disregard our chosen vows, but even that doesn't exempt my own responsibility, according to my own views.

Under a standard?

I think it's my own. I'm still here, doing what I promised to do, and I shudder at the "devil made me do it" train of thought that would seemingly nullify personal responsibility.

My husband has many single friends and he often goes out with them, and I know full well there are situations that arise (note my discretion--ahem) that would be considered tempting if not downright unseemly. But even as the "situations" arise, I do consider him the ultimate responsible party.

And let's just suppose for a minute, that he was unfaithful as a result of being the target of someone who didn't share my moral viewpoint of marriage. He might very well attempt to justify that using that same rationale (in fact, it sounds just like him) but according to my personal view, that would still not exempt me from my own promises.

It took me 26 years to marry this guy, because I do take my vows that seriously. And oh yes, there's temptation always, but as I said previously, I've got this thing about responsibility, and as much as I would have liked to disregard that, I'm just not the sort who can.



Now, if you'd like to continue this discussion in Grok, I'd be happy to tell you how getting married ruined my sex life.



(c'mon, Stephan, it's a teeny jest, m'friend! Smile with me?)

Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


44 posted 11-16-2004 02:14 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
even in that particular situation, he may decide that there is a rational reason to disregard our chosen vows, but even that doesn't exempt my own responsibility, according to my own views.



Nor, would it exempt his responsibility, I think.


quote:
Under a standard?
I think it's my own. I'm still here, doing what I promised to do, and I shudder at the "devil made me do it" train of thought that would seemingly nullify personal responsibility.



Ever asked yourself why you're so convinced that people ought to keep their word?  That is a standard that you didn't make up.  


Just because you might believe in a moral standard from Heaven, doesn't mean you have to adopt a "devil made me do it" mentality.  You might be able to say "I acted like the devil", but never "The devil made me act".


quote:
And let's just suppose for a minute, that he was unfaithful as a result of being the target of someone who didn't share my moral viewpoint of marriage. He might very well attempt to justify that using that same rationale (in fact, it sounds just like him) but according to my personal view, that would still not exempt me from my own promises.



He could use the same rationale, indeed.  But I think that deep inside you consider your moral view to really be wider than just yourself ... else you would have no right to even feel a bit peeved about his (theoretical, I hope) behavior.  That anger, is a natural and right response to a wrong committed.  The best advisors tell us that we should try to love and forgive ... not that anger is wrong.  Sometimes it's nearly a sin NOT to be angry.  


The Bible even states, "Be angry and sin not."  What a difficult balance, but I think it's the right one.  


quote:
It took me 26 years to marry this guy, because I do take my vows that seriously. And oh yes, there's temptation always, but as I said previously, I've got this thing about responsibility, and as much as I would have liked to disregard that, I'm just not the sort who can.



Karen, I think that's awesome.  I admire that in you.


quote:
I'd be happy to tell you how getting married ruined my sex life.



Well I guess sometimes keeping honor, can be preferrable even to the most physically gratifying sex life ... as hard as that may be for some of us to imagine.  



Stephen.
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


45 posted 11-16-2004 04:53 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Smile...

I knew this one was coming:

"Ever asked yourself why you're so convinced that people ought to keep their word?  That is a standard that you didn't make up."

And yes, Stephan, I agree, that one I got my from my parents.

Both of whom have cringed at my determination in this relationship, saying, "that's not we meant."

A standard, though, I thought was like a "curve" in class grading. Should I have gone by a 'standard', according to the pervasive view of influence that you have been so adamant in regarding as to a pollutant to my spiritual health, as according to the calculations deemed standard by my particular aspected society, I would be due, hmmm, I figure, what? Two divorces and at least five affairs.

Should I pack for Cancun?

Standards and procedures would dictate a "yes."

Smile.

(Even if you agreed to that logic, I couldn't do it.)

But to speak to you in your own language, Stephan, 'God' gave us all free will.

I look to that same example, when I think, "If you want a baby to walk, take the baby off your hip."

My spiritual appreciation is akin to that analogy.

I don't WANT my baby to skin his knees, but he is certainly likely to do so, as he learns to walk.

you see?

Anything more than that, and my child would never grow up.

(We do agree more in the spirit than you might surmise, Stephan.)

I just think you are confusing your own path with an exclusive.

And it's completely understandable too, considering how well that faith has done for you. But completely unacceptable to others, and sometimes you just have to concede to God that he/she knows what they are doing, yes?

Anything else would seem sort of disrespectful to me.



The acknowledgement of a God must begin with the faith that they/he/she/it has the ability to appear to people in forms that they can personally understand.

How could we claim a personal relationship otherwise?



Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


46 posted 11-18-2004 02:21 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Karen:
quote:
... And it's completely understandable too, considering how well that faith has done for you. But completely unacceptable to others, and sometimes you just have to concede to God that he/she knows what they are doing, yes?



Yes.  That doesn't mean everyone else does though.     Including me.  What that doesn't mean, is that he has failed to give us some plain directives.  Understanding and cooperation are two different things.  I've told you before that most of my spiritual problems manifest about 18 inches beneath my brain (and that's probably true of many).  Since heads talk, they tend to steal the heart's applause.


quote:
The acknowledgement of a God must begin with the faith that they/he/she/it has the ability to appear to people in forms that they can personally understand.
How could we claim a personal relationship otherwise?



No argument there.


Stephen.

    
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


47 posted 11-18-2004 03:16 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Stephen is awesomely cool.



(and if you give me a break on small sized hot sauce,I think can promote that for you. Well, that, and you need an La. License from the FDA--I did check. )
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


48 posted 11-18-2004 05:55 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Karen,


The three guys I was "in business" with, all decided to move away ... one to Missouri, one to Colorado, and one to Africa.  The hotsauce business is therefore not so hot.  


But I've got a few boxes left ... and I'd be glad to set you up while it lasts.


Stephen.
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


49 posted 11-24-2004 09:41 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

I bring this up because the threads are at least remotely related ...

What happened to the Bunny thread?


I came back after a few days, and it was gone without so much as a foot print.    
Was the subject matter off limits?  Or did the discourse become too heated?    


Hare today gone tommorow?      


(turning my attention away from bunnies, to turkeys for a moment ... I wanted to say to all of my philosophy friends, "Happy Thanksgiving".)

(Karen ... remind me of your address, and I'll set up a special holidays hotsauce delivery)



Stephen.
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> Philosophy 101 >> Being A Significant Other   [ Page: 1  2  3  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors