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Passions in Poetry

Judgment Day

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Huan Yi
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0 posted 11-06-2004 03:15 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


Is there any situation that you can see
where you would tell a perfectly healthy
man to go kill himself?

John

serenity blaze
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1 posted 11-06-2004 03:37 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

During the Columbine slaughter, I did find myself actually praying that the perpetrators would commit suicide before any more murders were committed.

I have struggled with that one ever since, so I'll be watching this thread with interest.
Poet deVine
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2 posted 11-06-2004 03:40 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

No.
Huan Yi
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3 posted 11-06-2004 03:56 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Poet deVine,

Not even Hitler?

John

Midnitesun
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4 posted 11-06-2004 05:30 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

are you suggesting Hitler was healthy?
Huan Yi
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5 posted 11-06-2004 05:35 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Kacy,

Physically yes; probably could run a marathon
and never break a sweat.  

You knew what I meant.
Answer.

John


Midnitesun
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6 posted 11-06-2004 05:54 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

I think it's a really lame question, John. Though I do recall telling a neighborhood bully 'go off yourself' and he understood exactly what I meant.
It's still a lame question, dude.
Poet deVine
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7 posted 11-06-2004 06:13 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine


Not even Hitler. If I did that, I would be acting just like he did.

Brad
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8 posted 11-06-2004 09:42 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

This is the same mistake as the Aztec question and the time travel one.

1. Is it moral to ask someone to kill themselves.

No.

2. Can I commit an immoral act?

Yes. Doesn't make me happy, but I've done it before.

3. Can I think of a situation where I would commit that specific immoral act?

Sure, I can think of a few.

It's an easy one to answer once you get out of the false dichotomy that the solution to a dilemma must always be moral.
Huan Yi
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9 posted 11-06-2004 11:14 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Does anyone remember Richard Speck,  one night
broke into a dorm and slashed seven or eight
nurse trainees to death?   Would you tell him
to have a nice day?


Poet deVine,

“Not even Hitler. If I did that, I would be acting just like he did.”

That deserves expansion on the equivalence.
Essorant
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10 posted 11-07-2004 01:48 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Never;  no man's life should be made out as the evil that deserves to be stopped.  
EVIL IS EVIL--the thinking and the doing.  Not a man, not his life.  The thinking--moving yourself, or moving another--the questioning, making something that you know is evil out as a question; splitting your mind about something that needs onemindedness; and the doing, the foul doing as a deed over someone or something.
Only when you stop thinking, questioning, doing what is evil, by thinking, knowing, doing, good do you vanquish the evil.  There is no being that is evil itself; but evil is what we are doing.  The only way we may stop the evil, is stop what we are doing evil.    
Ron
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11 posted 11-07-2004 02:25 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Does anyone remember Richard Speck, one night broke into a dorm and slashed seven or eight nurse trainees to death? Would you tell him to have a nice day?

Why not? After I locked him away, so he couldn't ever hurt anyone again, I would hope Speck would have a long life full of very nice days.

You would prefer vengeance, perhaps?
serenity blaze
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12 posted 11-07-2004 03:12 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Yeah.

I edited.

I tried.



I really tried.

I'll not be doing that again.

[This message has been edited by serenity blaze (11-07-2004 07:35 AM).]

Huan Yi
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13 posted 11-07-2004 07:09 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Ron

“Why not? After I locked him away, so he couldn't ever hurt anyone again, I would hope Speck would have a long life full of very nice days.

You would prefer vengeance, perhaps?”

What would you tell the parents, and others who loved them?

John

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14 posted 11-07-2004 07:21 AM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

John, I do remember Richard Speck...I was a single girl living in a dorm-like home with other single girls.

Murder is a crime and should be treated as such in a court of law. If we went around killing people who WE thought deserved to die, what kind of life would that be? What if someone thought YOU had killed their daughter and without benefit of a court of law and evidence and the presumption of innocence, they took matters into their own hands?

There are many instances of men released after years in prison because new DNA evidence has proven them innocent. What if the 'shoot first' theory of yours was the norm? These innocent men would be dead.

As for Hitler? He caused millions of people (men, women and children) to be murdered. He was basically a coward who couldn't face up to what he'd done, whether it was a sense of guilt or not, and committed suicide. If I told him to do it, then I would feel guilty the rest of my life.

I am not here to judge anyone. Therefore, the judgement that someone must die is not mine to make. I don't care how many serial killers you reference. I wouldn't do it.
Huan Yi
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15 posted 11-07-2004 07:44 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

serenity blaze,

Toward the end of the war my father was
being transported from the camp where he had
been and away from the approaching allies.  
He figured the guards were taking him and the
others where they could be disposed of, so as
to leave no witnesses of what had occurred
before.   Their convoy came under an artillery
barrage, and seeing his chance he leaped for
his life out the back of the truck  past the
German guards, (who were just as terrified),
running into the forest.  He stayed there
for two weeks while battles raged around him
surviving on whatever nuts and berries he
could find.   Then starving, he decided
to go out and surrender to his fate.  He
heard a clanking on the road which he
knew could only be tanks, yet, still
resolved, he came out of the woods.
Indeed there were on the road tanks,
but to his surprise they had a star
on their sides instead of the familiar
German cross.  He ran across the field
waving his arms and shouting that he
was Polish.  He was very lucky,
not only because of his striped camp
uniform and emaciated appearance,
but because on the tank he was approaching
there were two ethic Poles from
Milwaukee who understood what he
was saying.

Encountering my manner,
(to some degree deliberate), is like that of
meeting a soldier; you have to be
attentive to what colors he wears before
you decide how to respond.

I sincerely hope my way of approaching
my subject is the worst adversity you
ever experience.

Since I am reminded, I will also relate:
that having survivors for parents may
have made my upbringing different.
For example, they never hid death from
me; my first funeral was when I was perhaps
three, which I remember because they had the
corpse laid out on a low bench, (which was
the custom), and I, at my height, looked
directly at his face from the side not
two feet away.  There are other stories
but we’ll leave them.  My parents did
not believe in shielding me from the
harsher realities.  That was not uncommon
in our neighborhood which was composed
almost entirely of emigrants who had
survived.  Still as I said, it may have been
different.

I’m really not that bad.

John


Huan Yi
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16 posted 11-07-2004 07:55 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Poet deVine,

Fair enough.  Now we know.
There's no best answer, only different
ones.

But let’s have some more fun.
Say you or someone you loved were being attacked
by an assailant with an axe, and you saw
another man, (me perhaps (- ,  aiming a shotgun at the
assailant and knew with absolute certainty
that if he fired the assailant would be killed.
Would you shout to the man not to shoot?


Oh look, a smiley face!  See, serenity blaze,
God says I'm ok!


John
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17 posted 11-07-2004 08:04 AM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine


Not knowing you I would shout for you not to shoot....you could miss the assailant and hit my loved one!
Huan Yi
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18 posted 11-07-2004 10:05 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Poet deVine,

I was very clear:

“knew with absolute certainty
that if he fired the assailant would be killed.
Would you shout to the man not to shoot?”

The only physical danger to you or
your loved one is from the axe swinging
assailant who is intent on murder.

(Besides you’re saying rather than
risk the possibility of the gun you accept then the
certainty of the axe)

Now again:

“Would you shout to the man not to shoot?”

John
Poet deVine
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19 posted 11-07-2004 10:35 AM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

Why must it be a shot to kill? Wouldn't it just be as effective to shoot the axe from his hand? Perhaps I'd shout "don't kill him!" and hope that your aim would then only wound him.

You cannot make me say I'd want someone dead. (Since we cannot reference family or loved ones as per your original question, I think you weren't playing fair here!)
Ron
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20 posted 11-07-2004 01:17 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
"You would prefer vengeance, perhaps?”

What would you tell the parents, and others who loved them?

I would tell them I was sorry for their horrible loss, John. If pressed, I would tell them taking a life doesn't restore one already lost, and any satisfaction they might gain through vengeance would be hollow and last but a moment. I would tell them their lives would be richer for remembering their love and forgetting their hate.

I notice you didn't answer the question, John.

quote:
Say you or someone you loved were being attacked by an assailant with an axe, and you saw another man, ...  aiming a shotgun at the assailant and knew with absolute certainty that if he fired the assailant would be killed. Would you shout to the man not to shoot?

That is a very different question from your first, John.

"Should you wish someone dead simply because you can?" isn't nearly the same things as "Are you willing to kill someone if that is the most viable way of stopping them from hurting others?"

The title of this thread was an interesting choice, John. Do you perceive yourself as a judge of others?

quote:
Encountering my manner, (to some degree deliberate), is like that of meeting a soldier; you have to be attentive to what colors he wears before you decide how to respond.

I sincerely hope my way of approaching my subject is the worst adversity you ever experience.

The colors he wears, John, are of less import than his actions. Friend or foe won't ultimately be determined by a uniform, but rather by the respect for others he is willing to demonstrate.

Caustic soldiers, who seeming go out of their way to irritate or provoke those around them, soon find themselves standing on the side of the road, very much alone as those around them continue trudging forward. Sadly, being left behind is rarely the worst adversity they experience. It's just the most common.


serenity blaze
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21 posted 11-07-2004 05:19 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Here, John. Have another.



And I kinda figured that life had given you quite a ride.

Whenever I see a person blatantly angry, I think: "Now there's a person who's in a lot of pain."

Here, have a hug too.

I hope you didn't find that too annoying.

Stephanos
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22 posted 11-07-2004 06:55 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
It's an easy one to answer once you get out of the false dichotomy that the solution to a dilemma must always be moral.



I see your point Brad, there's always more to consider than just "morality".  And yet, the kinds of decisions that John is referring to cannot be totally divorced from the moral dimension.  When it comes to killing someone (or not) there's probably no consideration higher than the moral question.  Don't you think so?  


I know that Dietrich Bonhoeffer (who made an unsuccessful attempt at assassinating Hitler, and ended up dying at the hands of the Nazis), did what he did out of a moral conviction.  Whether what he did was right or wrong (morally) is no easy question to answer, but the question was doubtless foremost at the time.


Stephen.
Huan Yi
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23 posted 11-07-2004 10:33 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Ron,

My answer to my own question is colored
by the experience of my parents and their
friends.  I would have no problem killing
Hitler.  

John
Ron
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24 posted 11-08-2004 12:07 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Everyone's answer is colored by the past, John. That's not the same thing, though, as an answer determined by the past.
 
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