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Passions in Poetry

God vs. Spock

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Huan Yi
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0 posted 11-02-2004 07:02 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


Who has the more convincing argument;
those who argue for extraterrestrial life forms
capable of visiting our planet, or those
for a god that is at least mildly interested in it?

John

Essorant
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1 posted 11-03-2004 11:14 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

What are you implying?
Skyfyre
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2 posted 11-03-2004 04:08 PM       View Profile for Skyfyre   Email Skyfyre   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Skyfyre

Basically he's asking if it's more realistic to believe in God or aliens.

Personally I believe in both.
Aenimal
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3 posted 11-03-2004 04:46 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

What if early dieties were simply aliens mistaken for god's.
Stephanos
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4 posted 11-03-2004 05:04 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

John, this is a strange post since in a previous thread you stated you were "waiting for the kingdom of God".  


I'm just trying to figure out how these two pieces work together ...


pessimistic agnostic

and

pining expectant.



Stephen.
Huan Yi
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5 posted 11-03-2004 08:08 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Stephen,

The question arose after my rereading of a relevant
chapter in “Weird Science” by Michael White.

John

P.S.

“There are things in life that we must endure which
are all but unendurable, and yet I feel there is a great goodness.
Why, when there could have been nothing, is there something?  This
is a great mystery.  How, when there could have been nothing, does it
happen that there is love, kindness, beauty?”

Jane Kenyon

[This message has been edited by Huan Yi (11-03-2004 08:41 PM).]

Ron
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6 posted 11-03-2004 09:08 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

You're mixing some very simple ideas with some exceedingly complex ones, I think.

Is there life in the Universe beyond that on Earth? Very simple.

Is there intelligent life beyond that (sic) on Earth? Only marginally less simple.

Can ANY life ever cross the great expanses of the Universe. Complex and mathematical.

Is there a God? Both simple (faith) and complex (unprovable).

Is God at least marginally interested in Earth. Complex and probably not quantifiable (does omnipotence even allow for marginal interest?).

Yes, yes, no, yes, and paradoxical.
Huan Yi
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7 posted 11-03-2004 09:42 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Ron,

“Is there life in the Universe beyond that on Earth? Very simple.

Is there intelligent life beyond that (sic) on Earth? Only marginally less simple.”

You say yes to both.

Why? Because of our own being? What else?
What evidence?  

John

P.S.

There was an article some long time ago
in the Smithsonian in which the author spoke
about attending a science conference.  At the conference,
a group of French scientists demonstrated that
for life to occur on a planet not only would its orbit
have to be in its sun’s temperate zone, but it would
have to have a moon such as ours to keep its
axis relatively stable, otherwise its surface would
be experiencing constant and such temperature
shifts as to make the beginnings of life impossible.
The likelihood of such a repetition was considered
beyond calculation.

I once read a book in which a scientist offered reasons
as to how improbable our own universe was; that less
than one percent change in it’s composition of some
element and it wouldn’t exist as to make life possible.

[This message has been edited by Huan Yi (11-04-2004 12:54 AM).]

Midnitesun
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8 posted 11-03-2004 11:24 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

LOL, I see no reason to trust/mistrust either one more than the other, and neither are presented in a way that can be proven/disproven.
After I'm done with another Stephen King novel or Stephen Hawking discourse, as well as staring at my Salvador Dali or van Gogh prints, maybe I'll have another answer. Probably not though.
Sometimes, staring at my navel gives me greater enlightenment. Perhaps after my yoga stretches, I'll zen-think a thought or two that might make sense. But probably not.
Ron
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9 posted 11-04-2004 12:43 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Why? Because of our own being? What else? What evidence?

Flip an honest coin one thousand times and the odds of getting one thousand tails in a row is astronomical.

Flip an honest coin an infinite many times and the odds of getting one thousand tails in a row is inevitable. Don't believe me? Check out number theory sometime on the distribution of primes.

The Universe probably isn't infinite, but it's sure close enough as to make little difference.

As to your article in the Smithsonian, I'll leave you with the words of Arthur C. Clarke. "When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong."


Huan Yi
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10 posted 11-04-2004 12:51 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Kaci,

“I'll zen-think a thought or two that might make sense”

Isn’t that a contradiction?  I thought Satori , (enlightenment),
was to come spontaneously without thought.  That Zen was
the denuding from self and its attributes.

So yes, probably not.

John


Midnitesun
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11 posted 11-04-2004 12:55 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

You're catching on, John.
Huan Yi
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12 posted 11-04-2004 01:07 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Ron,


So Santa Claus, Peter Rabbit somewhere in the
great out there?

What are the chances of us being the first;
the Big Bang of life?

John
Huan Yi
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13 posted 11-04-2004 01:13 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Kaci,

Zen masters have been known to scorn
their own pursuits:

Satori seekers make me sick!
Those that find it are deluded.
The old gimlet on Vulture Mountain—laughable.
Over my shoulder flies the broken ladle.

--Kakua, 12c.

John
Midnitesun
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14 posted 11-04-2004 01:59 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Sosan (Seng-t'san) approx 600 CE:

Transformations going on in an empty world which confronts us appear real because of Ignorance.
Try not to seek after the true, only cease to cherish opinion.
Essorant
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15 posted 11-04-2004 11:33 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Every planet is alive at the right temperature, just at a different time and place.  Thus, the sun is the right size at a certain time for Pluto, so Pluto is alive;   it is the right size for Neptune at a certain time, so Neptune is alive, etc.  
The sun therefore is the right size for all planets and all planets are alive.  But at different times because of their different places.  Life runs from planet to planet; and from one sun to the next one, in one universal moment.  But to our science it appears to be "evolution" because we can't see the "whole" moment at once.  Thus we are on this planet now, not on that planet.  However, if we might see all times and all places, perhaps truly we might see us on every planet.  
Ron
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16 posted 11-04-2004 11:59 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
So Santa Claus, Peter Rabbit somewhere in the great out there?

Show me one Santa Claus or Peter Rabbit in the infinite, and I'll show the probability of more.

quote:
What are the chances of us being the first; the Big Bang of life?

Slim, but certainly not null.

I'm not sure order, however, is relevant. What are your chances of seeing the first snowflake of a blizzard? It's precedence wouldn't make the snowflake more unique (an oxymoron). Nor would it make the flake less like all the others.
Essorant
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17 posted 11-04-2004 01:51 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I must not think of the universe as one whole anymore.  It is making me insane.  I must be mistaken, for God didn't make the Universe especially to make men go insane.  Perhaps the universe is not actually a "whole" Perhaps everything is a whole as a specific shape only for a period of time: everything is only forever because change is eternal, but nothing is forever in its present shape.  The universe then is never complete, or else is always the same matter in different shapes.  Or it is one snake that is a is a circle that keeps swallowing each different on its selfsame path forever.
Thus my body is existant now because God set me in it; but afterwards it is not existant as a body, it is only existant as "parts" of the universe-body, but the "wholeness" stationary physical shape that I know in this life shall be no more existant.  It is "assimilated" into the universe.  My "bodily" character vanishes; and I either have no more, and have nothing; or I have a soul, and it is something still existant.  If each has a soul, he or she may live beyond the body and the world .  If one doesn't, one shall never exist again on or in any sphere of existance.  
Midnitesun
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18 posted 11-04-2004 02:30 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

quote:
Perhaps the universe is not actually a "whole" Perhaps everything is a whole as a specific shape only for a period of time: everything is only forever because change is eternal, but nothing is forever in its present shape.  The universe then is never complete, or else is always the same matter in different shapes.  Or it is one snake that is a is a circle that keeps swallowing each different on its selfsame path forever.

Or perhaps a big donut, and we are in the center hole, or perhaps just an insignificent crumb, and unable to imagine/see what's beyond the outer ring?
Essorant
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19 posted 11-04-2004 03:29 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

We only live on a world and we are to mind the whole universe    
Is this wise or foolish?

[This message has been edited by Essorant (11-04-2004 04:32 PM).]

Essorant
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20 posted 11-04-2004 03:56 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Maybe we are in the dark of the universe; that's why it is so hard to see things beyond our world.
It is the "nighttime" of the universe.  The stars, and the moon and our sun, are just night-light to sustain us until the daylight comes back, when we shall see so much more.
Not A Poet
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21 posted 11-04-2004 05:04 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

Actually, "more unique" is an extra redundancy
Ron
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22 posted 11-04-2004 06:31 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

You're right, of course, Pete. But now that you have me thinking of it, it does raise some interesting questions.

The real oxymoron would have been less unique. Since more unique is the polar opposite of less unique, does that mean the opposite of an oxymoron is always a redundancy?


Huan Yi
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23 posted 11-04-2004 07:49 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Ron/Essorant

What
if we
our selves
are the first cells
of God

John
Essorant
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24 posted 11-04-2004 09:30 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I think humans are divine but not that divine
 
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