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Passions in Poetry

The Naked King

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Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


0 posted 10-23-2004 01:01 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Who, and what real value is self?  Is it more than a manufacture
created by and to accommodate a particular environment?

In “Of Blood and Hope”, Samuel Pasar tells how out of
from among all those previously powerful successful men,
only one, who had been an assistant butcher, had the courage
to stand and argue with their guards as in the end saved at least
some lives including his own.

I knew of a man, a handsome brilliant once relatively
successful artist from a wealthy family, who deliberately
went into a life of poverty and humiliation, and when that
and alcohol failed, chose suicide rather than live with
his failure to recognize and help a woman, from among
those who readily came to him, in desperate injured need
before it was too late.

In the epilogue of Pygmalion, George Bernard Shaw
tells how Doctor Doolittle gets Eliza a flower shop
and married off to an innocuous gentlemen who,
it being innocuous times, would do for a successful
union.

Take the same egg and sperm but have it emerge
from a womb a few, a thousand, ten thousand, miles
away and who do you get?  Someone who should
hope and expect eternity?

So what is this thing called self.  And why should
one really care whether it lives or dies?

John

P.S.:

I am not a person.
I am a succession of persons
Held together by memory.

When the string breaks,
The beads scatter.

Lindley Williams Hubbell
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


1 posted 10-23-2004 02:53 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Perhaps it may help to think on the holy trinity.
God has one self: God.  But he has three hoods: Father (God in Fatherhood), Son (God in Sonhood) and Holy Spirit (God in Spirithood).  Whatever you call God, God is the selfsame God.  He has three selfhoods or "roles", yet he is only one self.  
And though people have the same names, they are different selves.  Bob is not that bob, that bob is not this bob.  They are different selves, with the selfsame name.  
Thus, perhaps, self may also truly be called one's oneness.  No matter how many personal roles you have and are of, you may only be one person; an overall oneness: your self.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (10-23-2004 03:43 PM).]

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


2 posted 10-23-2004 06:20 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
Who, and what real value is self?  Is it more than a manufacture
created by and to accommodate a particular environment?


If it is a construct created by and accomodating an environment, why does that necessarily imply no real value?

Dennet would call it a narrative center of gravity. And while there is no such thing as a center of gravity, it's certainly valuable to talk about such things.

Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


3 posted 10-24-2004 01:07 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Huan Yi,

What is your opinion about self?
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


4 posted 10-24-2004 01:35 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Essorant,

I think it is a manufacture
created by and to accommodate a particular environment.
An accretion over time layer upon layer giving us less chance
as time goes on to understand over what.  It has social function
and purpose if it properly works.  As a basis for faith, belief,
or trust, only as much as you would have
in a well trained dog.  

John  
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


5 posted 10-24-2004 12:40 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Then why do men banish enviroments--natural landscape and overdo their cities; and overurbanize the world?  They spill waste into air, earth and water; and spill waste into themselves.  They gave up their  companion in travels, the horse, to put over the world a traffic jam of unliving hastewagons in which thousand injuries and deaths come each year.  Overmanmadeness all over and less and less natural space for natural movement.  Junkyards of metal.  Greedy empires to manufacture and make money and compete.  To accomodate an enviroment?  That is very difficult to believe in.  
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


6 posted 10-24-2004 01:28 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Essorant,

It is a commercial environment that
is driven by consumption, and from childhood
humans are schooled in participation, regardless.
Mother Nature is not the CEO of  Toyland.

John

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


7 posted 10-24-2004 01:49 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

But there were earlier enviroments than the "commercial" enviroment.  What happened to the accomodation of them?  
    


Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


8 posted 10-24-2004 02:54 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Essorant

I suspect survival of the fittest, they were killed off.
Besides, what earlier environments are you speaking of;
those where women grubbed the ground for roots
while men went to war for heads?  Where was there
a Garden of Eden before?  Rousseau’s Noble Savage
is a fiction; the French themselves soon found that out
once they began to explore the until then uncharted world.

John
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


9 posted 10-24-2004 03:34 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"Besides, what earlier environments are you speaking of;
those where women grubbed the ground for roots
while men went to war for heads?"

I'm talking about civilization, not savagery.

It is not much better to be a savage of structure (including commercialism), than it is to be a savage of nature and ignorance.  It is better though, I believe, if one may create balance between nature and extraordinary structure; a better balance, is where Civilization is.  Civilization I believe is about cultivation and preservation, and edification of what we already have;  it doesn't make manipulation of nature and accumulation of structure out as the token and omphalos of Progress.  Just as an artist may not be an artful only by making his work more manifold all the time; our societies may not be civilized by making them more manifold all the time.  We need more cultivation and worth. And less accumulation and commercialism.  


[This message has been edited by Essorant (10-24-2004 04:54 PM).]

hush
Senior Member
since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


10 posted 10-26-2004 03:37 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

"In a field
I am the absence
of field.
This is
always the case.
Wherever I am
I am what is missing."

Mark Strand
 
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