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Passions in Poetry

Soul

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Essorant
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50 posted 10-27-2004 12:54 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

When you say that nature is obedient to an external mind, or has a consciousness of it's own, you are describing specific views (theism, pantheism, or even panentheism).  To call this "naturalism" is simply a mistake.  That's all we're saying.  If you doubt me, look up "naturalism" in the dictionary.  Then for further clarification look up "theism", "pantheism", and "panentheism".  

Yes; but distinct from the way you believe in God;  One may believe that all have spiritual and natural substantialness.  My main point is that you may believe that nature and spirit are both one substantial whole and web about all.  One may be a naturalist and a spiritualist at at the same time, he doesn't need to abstain from one to partake in the other.  To a spiritualist that is also a naturalist (a spiritual naturalist or natural spiritualist, if you will) the words spirit and nature may almost become almost interchangable because spirit and nature are always interwoven; either always "communicating" with the other.  This is substantial on its own.  And need not specify theism, or atheism.
Essorant
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51 posted 10-27-2004 05:01 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"But eytmology is not the basis of meaning.

Usage is. "


Etymology and usage.


"I'm not saying you're wrong about what you think Naturalism should mean. You're simply wrong when it comes to how Stephen and I are using it."

Well, I may say your wrong too, when it comes to how I'm using it        


"I don't know, do you want Stephen and I [me] to use a different word?"

Let us wordwrestle this one back to shape, then we may go to the next word.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (10-27-2004 09:20 PM).]

Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea


52 posted 10-27-2004 10:56 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
"I don't know, do you want Stephen and I [me] to use a different word?"


Ooops.

You're still missing the point though. Arguing over what 'naturalism' is supposed to mean or what is should mean distracts from the original question:

Is there a soul?

Answer: no

Huan Yi
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Waukegan


53 posted 10-27-2004 11:50 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Brad,

“Answer: no”

Then what will you give the Devil
for a donut?

(-;

John

Essorant
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54 posted 10-28-2004 02:36 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Brad

If there is no soul, then there must be nothing to refer to it with because there is nothing there to be referred to; didn't you contradict that by facing referring to it at all?  What are you referring to?  


Essorant
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55 posted 10-28-2004 02:58 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

If the word exists for something, something exists for the word.
Stephanos
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56 posted 10-28-2004 09:34 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
Either you agree or you don't, but unless you want to play, "Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus", how is he going to make the distinction?



How long have we known each other on this forum Brad?  You know I don't agree that you have no soul.  You've been made in the image of God despite yourself.  


But blaming Essorant's misunderstanding on what you percieve to be a weakness in my position or articulation of that position is kind of lame.  Especially sense I get the feeling that Essorant's view (and I think you do too) is pretty much a supernaturalistic one already, and one which absolutely believes in the soul ... he's just quibbling over terminology.  He already told you he's not an atheist.  And as far as word games bringing the two positions any closer ... I've not tried to bring them closer, but to contrast them the best I can.    


And you know I've never said that the most compelling proof for Christianity was in it's philosophical implications ... or even in the philosophical absurdities of it's counter-views.  (What's the name of this particular forum again?)  The most compelling proof is that sinners are made saints.  (experiential).  And that apart from dishonest treatment of the accounts, it's history is immutable (evidential).  Therefore, believing in no soul doesn't do justice to any of these things, and therefore lacks the explanatory power which the "soulish" worldview has.    



Stephen.    
Stephanos
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57 posted 10-28-2004 09:40 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Essorant
quote:
If the word exists for something, something exists for the word.



But a word does not guarantee ontological realness ... apart from mere artistic creativity.  But all artistic expression ends at death if that is the case.  You have to believe in a soul which transcends death, or you and Brad essentially believe the same thing ... that the "soul" is the creation of man, not the composition of man.  


Stephen.
Brad
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58 posted 10-28-2004 09:52 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

No, no, Stephan, never intended that to be a rip on your belief. Sorry about that.

It was intended to be a rip on the idea that if we just saw things in the right way that we could somehow come to an understanding that we are both right or both wrong.

In order for us to agree on this, one of us has to give up something.

Stephanos
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59 posted 10-28-2004 09:57 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
It was intended to be a rip on the idea that if we just saw things in the right way that we could somehow come to an understanding that we are both right or both wrong.



Are you referring to the view which basically states that materialistic naturalism and theism are completely compatible views?  And that we will come to see so, as we gain more knowledge?


Stephen.
Brad
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60 posted 10-28-2004 09:58 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I'm referring to other people's mistakes.

"There is a unicorn in front of me."

That is either true or false. In this case it is false. Reference is not a magic world builder.
Stephanos
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61 posted 10-28-2004 10:04 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Essorant:
quote:
Yes; but distinct from the way you believe in God;  One may believe that all have spiritual and natural substantialness



That's my point Ess ... When you espouse a belief that retains the idea of divinity (God) and yet refuses to allow a distinction between God and his creation, it's called "Pantheism".  A word much better suited for what you believe, than "naturalism".  




Nature is not absolute.  God and nature are distinct from each other:  theism"


Nature is absolute.  God and nature are not distinct from each other:  pantheism"


Nature is absolute.  There is no God.  naturalism"



Stephen.


Essorant
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62 posted 10-28-2004 07:39 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

But a word does not guarantee ontological realness ... apart from mere artistic creativity.  But all artistic expression ends at death if that is the case.  You have to believe in a soul which transcends death, or you and Brad essentially believe the same thing ... that the "soul" is the creation of man, not the composition of man.

Yes, they must Stephenos.  Each word exists because there is something that exists to be referred to by it.  
A word means and refers to something, not nothing.  
Everything is something, therefore every word must refer to something.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (10-28-2004 10:56 PM).]

Juju
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In your dreams


63 posted 10-28-2004 09:36 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

I put some thought in to this.

The person is the soul or being.  People with after death expierences pier down at there bodies. Is this perhapps symbolism of the soul? Does the soul hate the body so? Can we not prove what a soul is because we are the soul and we want to visualize it as a sepperate entity, when in fact we are the soul chained to the body(this last line not an origanal theory by me, but some theorists beleive.)

Do animals have souls?
Hehehe. animals are relative. For now I say no, cause there is not enough evidence to sway me/

Juju      
Essorant
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64 posted 10-29-2004 12:41 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

That's my point Ess ... When you espouse a belief that retains the idea of divinity (God) and yet refuses to allow a distinction between God and his creation, it's called "Pantheism".  A word much better suited for what you believe, than "naturalism".  

I never said that I believe everything is God Stephenos
I say Spirit or Nature are always both Spirit and Nature.  They are never just "Spirit" just "Nature"  
In other words I don't think that Nature or Spirit divide themselves.   They are always part of each other.    
Brad
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65 posted 10-29-2004 12:51 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
Yes, they must Stephenos.  Each word exists because there is something that exists to be referred to by it.  
A word means and refers to something, not nothing.  
Everything is something, therefore every word must refer to something.


This is just wrong.


ipun jom dokcho

Are three words.

What do they refer to?

Essorant
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66 posted 10-29-2004 07:49 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

What are their etymology and usage?
Brad
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67 posted 10-29-2004 11:20 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Hint: It's an imperative.

Essorant
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68 posted 10-30-2004 09:44 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

An imperative refers to doing something.  

Essorant
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69 posted 10-30-2004 06:46 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant


Wes Țu hal "Be thou hale"

Wes [imperative of wesan "to be"]





[This message has been edited by Essorant (10-30-2004 08:46 PM).]

Midnitesun
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Gaia


70 posted 10-30-2004 08:52 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Soul
is the music
of the human heart

Soul
is what makes us stand apart
from other living things

Soul
is the art of the heart
in its purest form
Brad
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71 posted 10-30-2004 08:55 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

An imperative refers to doing something that does not exist.
Essorant
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72 posted 10-30-2004 09:10 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

How may you do something if something to do does not exist!


Brad
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73 posted 10-30-2004 09:21 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Time.
Essorant
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74 posted 10-30-2004 09:54 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

What time has things that do not exist?
 
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