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Philosophy 101
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Free-Will.
| Philosophy 101 |
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Free-Will. |
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Kaoru
since 2003-06-07
Posts 3892where the wild flowers grow 
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This question is for anyone, not just those of the Christian faith. Since I know that many people who are not have read the bible, and of course with a different veiw. However, the words are still the same in the minds of everyone. My question is this, and it may just be one of the most common questions debated amongst christians and the etc. Do you believe that God gave humans free will? Tell me why? |
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Local Parasite
since 2001-11-05
Posts 2527Transylconia, Winnipeg |
I had this conversation with a friend last night. His words: quote: It's a big argument that there's any conflict between free will and a pre-determined universe, of course. If everything is only going to happen in one definite way, how can any decision we make be free? The answer is that, while God may know what's in store for us, we don't. Our free will is in our ignorance of the future. Our decisions, because we don't know what they're going to be ahead of time, are up to us. Ultimately, each one of us will only make one decision---but that's not to say we aren't accountable for those decisions. Free will is something like a variable that was put into the pre-determined order... in the end, God knows what it will add up to, but we don't, so all we can do is try and make the best choices as they present themselves to us. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
To be truly free, in my opinion, it would have to be free from any outside influences of any kind, either from our circumstances or from God, so in the strictest sense, no I don't believe that we have a "free" will, even though to us it seems like we do. I believe that our wills are subject to various influences, most of which we may not even be consciously aware, and that supreme over all those influences is the sovereignty of God. For example, I may determine to do this thing or that thing, but how many preceding things have conditioned me to come to that decision or to make that choice, and in the final analysis, I won't be doing anything unless it is allowed by God anyway. Not such a far-fetched concept given that even each breath that we take is a gift from God and no one knows if the next breath will be given or not. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: And God said, "Let there be Heisenberg!"  quote: It seems to me you're confusing freedom with isolation, Denise. Shakespeare and Dickens have both influenced my writing greatly, but I've yet to have either of them offer to pen a short story for me. And if they did offer? It would still be my decision to accept or not. Influence doesn't negate choice, because influence is a result of choice. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I agree, Ron, influence does not negate choice, but the choices that we make can certainly be conditioned by those influences, making our will a bit less autonomous than it sometimes seems. If you had not been exposed to Shakespeare and Dickens you may not have discovered your love of writing and may never have picked up a pen to give it a try for yourself. But you were and you did (and I'm very glad that you did, by the way). Your choice, of course, but those influences played a role in your decision, consciously or subconsciously. I don't agree that influence is always a result of choice, personal choice at least. Some influences in people's lives are the results of other's choices. I suppose a better example might be the people who are abused as children, and subconsciously are, more often than not, attracted to people who are also abusers. They are "free" to choose whomever they will, but seem to be overwhelmingly, inexplicably, drawn to something in that type of person, and often don't even realize that the person is an abuser until they are entrenched in the relationship and only then realize that they have made yet another bad decision. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Denise, While you might note that we don't have absolute autonomy (being creaturely as we are)... I would also note that neither are we subject to absolute determinism, being caught in a fatalistic cause and effect ride, without choice. If that were not so, then "sin" or "immoral" or "virtuous" are meaningless terms. Stephen |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I agree, Stephen, absolutely. |
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Kaoru
since 2003-06-07
Posts 3892where the wild flowers grow |
Well, questioning whether or not we do actually have free will is a start. According to the bible, man was not given the knowledge to know that he was naked. When he ate the fruit of the forbidden tree, he was given that knowledge, therefore he felt shame, and clothed himself. For this, he and the woman were punished. Were they punished for having knowledge, or were they punished for eating the fruit? Both? I guess we'd have to ask God for that answer. Do you think that free will has anything to do with knowledge? My question isn't a vehemence against Christianity in any form, I hope it doesn't come off as that. However, I'd like to know whether or not we would have this supposed free will had man not eaten from the tree? And if so, would we have the devil to thank for our ability to learn and know what we do know? Would we still be living as subserviant, unknowing sheep had we not eaten the fruit? Is it better to die free than as a slave to God? And do you believe that having faith in God, or anything else, is your will? |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Actions have repercussions. Stick your hand in a fire for a couple of minutes and it might seem the fire is "punishing" you, when in fact, your burns are a direct result of your own choices. Don't like the pain? Stop sticking your hand in fires. quote: Adam and Eve were told to not eat from the tree. That they nonetheless did so is proof of free will. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Ron: But it is not proof that free-will of the sort described by the Genesis narrative continued beyond the Fall. If anything, the Fall marks the death of free-will, and the will's subsequent bondage. But rather than absolving the fallen from future wrongdoing (as some determinists or anti-determinists might suggest), it condemns the fallen to a final judgment of limited choices (i.e., without Divine initiative, we can no longer choose God) and the resulting consequences. But I suppose one's opinion on the matter depends on one's view of how far (or even whether at all) man has fallen. Jim |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Seems to me, Jim, that opportunity isn't necessarily a prerequisite for freedom. Having choices doesn't mean having infinite choices. More specifically in terms of this particular discussion, every choice inevitably limits choices that can branch from the one being made. Had Adam and Eve chose to not disobey God, their remaining choices would still have been finite and limited. I don't think that should be seen as a diminishment of free will, but rather the result of free will. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
So if we limit the scope of our question to the choices available after the Fall as they pertain to relationship with God, can a will with only one choice be considered "free" or is it more correct to describe such a will as "bound"? I don'tdispute, by the way, that we have some measure of liberty to make choices in the general sense. |
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Kaoru
since 2003-06-07
Posts 3892where the wild flowers grow |
Good point Ron, however, if God meant for them to have free will, why would he punish them for using it? Was it his intention for them to be curious? It was "Satan" who got Eve to try the fruit of the forbidden tree. He convinced her that God was denying them (the race of man) the freedom that they so deserve. And so he was, being that he punished the two humans for eating the fruit. Was it God's mistake in his creation of man to let them have doubts? Is this why God was so vehement against man's decision to disobey him? Was it God that was mistaken in his creation, or was Satan stronger than God in his ability to give man the curiousity to try the fruit? |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: You're assuming, first, that the Fall was a punishment rather than a repercussion. Okay, let's say for sake of argument you're right. Why does any parent punish a child? Each of us, I think, wants our children to become responsible adults, able and willing to think for themselves. Yet, we inevitably punish them when they think for themselves in ways we know are unacceptable or harmful. Why? Maybe because we know they will never become responsible adults, able and willing to think for themselves, unless we set boundaries and impose consequences for crossing those boundaries. Discipline is not an instrument of hate or indifference, but rather of love. Knowing you will be obligated to punish your child and will surely bring them many years of relative misery (talked to a teen lately?), would you still bring them into the world? Sure you would. Because you know the pain is fleeting, minor, and, instead of being just a price we're willing to pay for immense love and satisfaction, is actually the stepping stones to that goal. |
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Arnold M Member
since 2004-09-05
Posts 195 |
Ron, I think you made a wonderful statement: "discipline is not an instrument of hate or indifference, but rather of love." And if this is true for a loving parent, isn't it moreso for a loving God? I believe Adam and Eve were created with insatiable curiosity and when they could eat of the fruit of every tree in the garden, except for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they did. And there must have been vegitables too. And they chose to eat what they would, including, I believe, the tree of life. Unfortunately, Eve was beguiled, but Adam deliberately ate of the forbidden fruit. Why? Because, I surmise, he knew the consequences that dying would result for her and he loved her too much to be parted. There obviously was a psychological change in them, for whatever glory or radiance covered their bodies was gone, and they knew they were naked, and for the first time they were afraid of the Lord God. They lost that close intimate fellowship with Him, and it has continued to this day, apart from being a New Creation in Christ. But, was God surprised, was He caught off guard? No, of course not. For God to show His overwhelming love for all humanity, to be their Redeemer, Saviour, the Fall was no surprise. As to free will. I believe that our descisions seem that we freely make them, but some day we'll see that God was shaping every one. Thank you, Arnold |
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Kaoru
since 2003-06-07
Posts 3892where the wild flowers grow |
Okay, so let me get this straight. If I mix up the last two comments from Arnold and Ron.. Arnold says in his comment that god was not surprised that Adam and Eve ate the fruit. I take this as he knew they would, he was completely aware of this. That, I understand. Ron has stated that God is much like any parent to his children, there must be punishment for wrong-doing and deliberately disobeying the rules. When I think about this, I come to this thought each time... If God knew that Adam and Eve were going to eat the fruit eventually, why did he punish them? I kind of think of it like, a mother putting out a cookie in front of her child, telling her that she is not allowed to eat it, then leaving her alone with the cookie for 10 minutes. The mother KNOWS she's going to eat it, she put that temptation in front of her child, and was well aware of what would happen. Now, to me, it would be wrong to come back to an eaten cookie and then punish the child. It just seems blatently cruel to do something like that. As a parent, wouldn't you keep the temptation out of the way in the first place? Protect your child from that desire? Keep in mind, the child is young, and still very ignorant..The child doesn't really know too much about temptation, or even right and wrong. I would compare the child to Eve, and to Adam. They were given a lifestyle that was built for ignorant bliss. Nothing to worry about, everything handed to them. They were children, and they knew no better. So knowing that, as a parent, and giving that temptation to a child, then spanking or putting them in time-out for it, would seem unfair. I would think that if you're going to go to such great lengths, it would seem as if you WANT to punish your child. If God knew that his creations were going to eat the fruit, he could've easily kept the fruit protected from them. If he did not want to punish them for their temptation, he would've made it to where the fruit could not be penetrated. It would've been very simple. So would you consider this a favor from God? I think not. If God had given us free will and temptation, why would he punish us severely for expressing it? It almost seems like a fallacy or hypocrisy. The whole story makes no sense. This is why the bible is so hard for me to read, it constantly contradicts itself. Alas, it was written by several different people, none of which were God to begin with. You also get a sense of when it was written when you read about the women inside of it. Most of which are servile and blamed for the punishment of man. Makes no sense to me, but whatever floats your apple. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Nope. I don't think you do anyone any favors by doing everything for them. I might be able to protect my child from temptation for a few years, but I won't be there to shield them forever. The only real way to protect someone you love is to teach them to protect themselves. And just like learning to walk, it won't always be an entirely pleasant experience. Being a parent isn't all smiles and giggles. A large part of it is deciding what pain is necessary in order to avoid a greater pain later. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: But what difference does that make? The Church has always held that God chose humanity as the instrument by which his Revelation would be given and preserved. If I want to say something to a person who is Chinese, I'll best accomplish that through a translator who is Chinese. quote: Only a precursory glance gives us that idea. God himself placed most of the liability on Adam for what happened in the garden. The "Fall of Man" and original sin has mostly been attributed to Adam by the Jews and the Church too, even though Eve was decieved and helped him along. Who is more foolish, the one who is decieved, or the one who knew and still ate? The former was Eve's sin, the latter was Adam's. It was through him that sin and death entered the world. Stephen. |
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Kaoru
since 2003-06-07
Posts 3892where the wild flowers grow |
I guess the difference is that some people put their faith completely in what was written by man. The bible alone should not be what you verily choose to believe, should it? If God has a powerful part of your life and yourself, what do you need the bible for? I guess one of my biggest confusions is the bible to begin with. There's so much that I don't seem to understand about how it was written. It repeats itself, and not only that, it does so and changes things about itself depending on who wrote a certain part of it. Maybe what I mean is this, inside of you, you know who God is.. you know what he expects of you. Faith in God or anything at all is dependent upon what's in your own heart. Now, if I were of the Christian faith, that's how I would feel about it, personally. I would question the books, preachers, priests, etc. I would feel that I were doing a favor to myself by using what was given to me to find out what I feel is right to believe in. As humans, we're capable of finding our own morals and beliefs. That is how we're blessed. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Karou quote: That's a complex question. One key to answering it, is thinking of our nature and God's nature. If God chose to give a revelation through humanity, in written form, It must be needed. Because I know that God is all-wise, omniscient and all of that, I don't see him doing something needless. That's one argument from God's nature. Now just a few arguments from our nature: -Language and writing are an intrinsic part of who we are. Writing, speech, and definite ideas communicated with words, influence us profoundly. Just think about how many ideas, or how much ideology you've accumulated through reading, or through spoken words. -Throughout history people have felt that important events, ideas, and truths should be recorded in written form, for posterity, and for the benefit of study and learning. - We are moved by all different kinds of writing. Ranging from poetry to history ... from love songs to predictions of the future ... from philosophical truths to practical epigrams. The Bible contains all of these and more. - A revelation of God's truth cannot be trusted to come from our minds "naturally", or God wouldn't have had to do anything through history in the way of communication, or miracles. We have a tendency to believe what we want to, making truth into "our truth". The Bible afforded that God's truth would be communicated in more definite terms, tangible enough to correct our thinking when we mistake our arbitrary musing for God's voice. There was a prophet, Jeremiah, who wrote "The heart is decietful above all things, and desperately wicked, who can know it?". That's why individual intellect, feelings, and sentimentality cannot be the foundation of divine revelation. We're just too apt to change the truth. Can you do that with the Bible? Certainly, but it's harder than without it. And if we do, we have less excuse. quote: You should try reading Josh McDowell's "Evidence that Demands a verdict", especially the section about the Bible. There are also lots of other works describing the origin of the books of the Bible. If you ever have any questions that I can personally help you with, also, I'd be glad to try. Though I'm only a lay-person, the origin and canonization of scripture is one of my pet interests. quote: It does repeat itself in many instances. And as any child educator will tell you, repitition is invaluable in the learning process. As to "chaning things about itself depending on who wrote a certain part of it", I don't exactly know what you mean. Could you explain that better, or maybe give me an example? quote: There's a lot of truth in what you're saying here. But as I said above, we also need more than just our own "heart" to judge by. Something to measure our subjectivity against. If you worshiped a God who saw everything in the same way you do ... who felt the exact same way you do about everything, wouldn't you be a bit suspicious? Another good reason for a written revelation. quote: I basically agree with this ... with a caveat or two. 1) Don't confuse angry cross examination with questioning. Sometimes it's easy to do. 2) Question yourself at least as much as you do the preachers and books. Sometimes it's very hard to do. quote: To a degree. God has given us a conscience. But how often do we repress it, doubt it, and bury it in a corner, until it only gives a whimper? To me the Bible is a spade, that allows me to dig up what in my sinful tendencies I always manage to bury. And even if we could find the right set of morals on our own, we can never live up to them. Thus we need the forgiving, redeeming God whom the Bible points us to. But that's true of us all, me as well as you. Stephen. |
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Arnold M Member
since 2004-09-05
Posts 195 |
HI Stephen. What you put forth in your latest input was marvelous. So well said. Karou, I agree, the bible can be confusing. Once you get through the early chapters of Genesis to the account of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and his 12 sons, the beginning of the Hebrew nation, it really can be their boring history. I would suggest to start reading in the book of Romans in the New Testament. Stephen, what do you think? |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Arnold: quote: The stories about the patriarchs, I would call anything but boring. But, you're right in saying that reading the New Testament would be helpful to understanding. Actually the Old helps us to understand the New and Vice Versa. (P.S. I shouldn't be to hard on you about the "boring" remark. I feel much the same way about the Geneologies of the Bible. Ron begat Jim begat Stephen begat Arnold .... etc. [Yep that's probably pretty good chronology, age-wise  ] Though they were very important to the Jews.)Stephen. |
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littlewing Member Rara Avis
since 2003-03-02
Posts 9655New York |
Definitely! I am living proof . . . |
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Arnold M Member
since 2004-09-05
Posts 195 |
Hi Stephen. I guess I should have said "some of it can be boring." Karou, it's true there were many writers of the Bible, and from a human perspective one would think there were many contradictions. I used the word "writers" because I'm convinced there is only one Author, God Himself. There is much internal evidence as well as external for this, that I'm sure Stephen could point out better than I. Never the less, maybe a rough outline of the bible would be of use. The Bible is a collection of 66 books, written over a span of more than 1500 years, with at least 40 different writers from different countries, social strata, and occupations. Yet this book has a unity and cohesiveness that leads to only one logical explanation: GOD IS THE TRUE AUTHOR OF THIS BOOK. The Old Testament was written originally in Hebrew and some Chaldean. It is primarily the history of God's chosen people, Israel. From the fall of Adam, sin and death entered the human race. But God wasn't taken off guard. Yet, we reason that if He knew they would eat the forbidden fruit, why didn't He prevent it? Because God wants us to know what real love is. As our saviour, He had already planned to give His only Son to be our redeemer. In the ages to come and beyond, hearts will be made right and the love and fellowship through Christ will be beyond anything we can imagine. It is getting late. More to come. Arnold |
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Arnold M Member
since 2004-09-05
Posts 195 |
Hi Karou. God's plan for the redemption of mankind was planned before the ages began. 1 Peter 1:20 tells us that Christ was a lamb foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world. Since the Bible is a book of redemption both for Israel and the nations some scholars have put it this way: The Old Testament: Someone is coming The New Testament Gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John: Someone is here The rest of the N.T. letters: Someone is coming again. I'll sign off for awhile. Arnold |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
no one, but no one can assume what another is thinking, let alone God. I believe the Bible was written by men, who assume and no matter how much goodness they intend, they will argue any point to their side, as you, me, and everyone here. But the simple fact is....free will is the fact that you have gotten to this place right now, by your choices....no one else is responsible for your life but you.... I'm talking in general...and even now, even disease, I wonder is mostly man made...it surely isn't of God.... Free will is! And this is still the best place in the world to live, as long as people stay open minded and alert...not fear, but caution, to those whom would empower and control... I do also believe punishment is care and love to generate the child to know there is definately a result from his/her reactions...and holds consequence. I also believe it is sorely important for the adult to allow the child to make mistakes of his own...otherwise, how else would he/she learn Of great importance is to realize, children parrot their parents...so it is important and essential to remember that and try not to condition them...but to teach them respect for life....all life...to embrace fully their responsibilities as well as their accomplishments. We have become a negative society, corrupted by gossip...wishing bad of others...afraid to encourage others...pride and jealousy, greed stands in the way....don't be afraid to encourage many trails, the arts, moral education, common sense education, dance, music, the Bible, reading...but always remind him/her, you are reading one person's opinion, therefore, do what in your heart you feel will compliment the entire neighborhood....help your neighbors, know their names, take life by the hand and experience everything you can, as long as no one else gets hurt...don't use people, and learn to do without...to go hungry, to survive, to improvise, to create, and cultivate the soil....fish, hunt if need be, and to always always persue education...never stagnate yourself with pride or I wants....ask youself if your really need? Focus on miracles and good will towards man, leaving this place in a better place, and remember, think before you make decission, b/c each and every decission you make, isn't only about you, but affects/effects all those who love you, and care for you. And when your parents grow old, remember you might have to care for them, they wiped your bottom to, many times over. Death is not indecent...death is part of life...dont' fear it....but experience it in dignity...letting go, and walking toward a new experience. Life is easy, we are the ones who make it hard...and the devil will sell you an entire lake of truth, to disquise one pt. of poisen? A person's gotta do, what best in their heart will be good for the union, and not just for the person. Happiness is a frame of mind, and is different for all people...one may find happiness in simple fulfillment, another may only succeed in happiness in being great as a leader...another in material things....happiness is what you believe it to be...and never ever can the soul be entrapped or caged...never...it is that pull of positive energy which is forever around us..fighting the negative energy.... To me, all of the above is free will? |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Sorry, I Deleted my comment. [This message has been edited by Essorant (10-12-2004 11:38 PM).] |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: But Lee, no one ever denied that the Bible was written by men. That's a given. The claim has always been that the bible is divinely inspired (Greek- theopneustos- literally "God breathed") So the question is: Is the claim of divine revelation through the writing of men, a true one? Is God powerful enough to give an infallible message through fallible hands? Is the bible historically accurate when it tells us about the man who claimed to be more than just a man, but divine? If not, then we have no credible, reliable revelation ... only opinion, musing, and creative descriptions of our own mind. "Men wrote the bible" is no argument against the possibility of divine revelation. It would make sense for God to communicate to humans through human agents, since that's how we relate. Stephen. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Lee, You give a lot of practically good advice in your post, much of which I agree with (I really mean that). And yet, I see something which I wonder about ... You say: quote: Then ... quote: And ... quote: In view of what you have said. I wonder only about two things in your last quote ... First, Is happiness really what we believe it to be? Or is it dependent upon certain criteria? You did start off by saying that we have become a negative society, with undue fear, greed, selfishness, gossip, etc ... And yet many people choose these things because they seek their "own" happiness, rather than adherence to anything higher or nobler. Secondly, did you really mean that the soul can never be entrapped? Or did you mean that given certain conditions, right choices, etc ... that the soul cannot be entrapped? Because in light of your first statement about society, it seems there are many many souls who are entrapped, because their focus is wrong. Thirdly, is this "pull of positive energy" a given thing that will ultimately win out, or is it something (someone?) who requires something of us, perhaps a response of some kind? Because taking your statement at face value, one might look at many situations in the world and wonder if the positive energy is really winning out. In short, I guess what I'm trying to ask in these questions is all the same thing. You seem to see virtue in autonomous will, or choice. And yet many things you say seems to only admit virtue to certain particular choices, not just any choice at all. Stephen. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Hi Stephen… No, no forgive me; I was thinking out loud, not rebuking anyone’s belief or statements here. Just adding my thoughts…. I believe in God and Jesus…but having a problem of late with the Bible’s content Regarding what may have been left out, and what is there now. I don’t believe God intended women to be a slaves…but equal, yet, when you look at ancient history…and even modern day countries…simply have a problem with understanding we are equal. Now don’t misunderstand, I love to have the door opened for me…as I would hold it open for someone as a suggestion of care. A lot of my other statements were meant to be in lieu of the brainwashing we’ve been subjected to for years and years. If we are as God himself, then, the musings of soul, mind and nature, provide many answers. I question divine intervention…not that He doesn’t intervene But I believe he gifts us life, and it’s our choice to do with it what we like. Also believe that God does not create disease…man does…in all the chemicals we’ve been using and testing, which we ingest… Yes, we have become a very negative society, which is free will. And are corrupted by gossip, pride, accepting immoral beliefs and crimes as a way of things….all these soap operas, and real TV shows are absolutely insulting to our integrity. We’ve become a society of materialism, commercialism and our only thoughts of success are in the material…and yes, society does not encourage love…kindness…compassion….mature thinking….it teaches, fashion, and if you look beautiful on the outside, then you have everything, not to mention open sex, what ever happened to the concept….making love? My statement of (think before you make decisions should have been before “we” make decisions; sorry I get carried away…) This meaning, we have become a world society who no longer thinks about the long term effects our decisions have on others or how they hurt others. In our desires for fortune and fame, immediate gratification…we’re forgetting about love for others…giving love as well as receiving. We’re loosing something very sacred and pure to the human soul….the great passion of togetherness. That is success…riches…having nothing to do with material. Ask our youth of today, what love is? Ask them what courtesy is? They don’t know? And it’s not their fault, it’s ours. We’re loosing any adherences to nobleness, compassion and the ability to stand against what is wrong, we deny the positive forces and accept the negative…and when one person works against what others are accomplishing, it corrodes the entire body, neighborhoods, towns, cities, world. It’s a definite ripple effect… Happiness is what each individual deems as success…and I add here, who am I to tell anyone what they’re happiness is or should be? I meant the body can die, but the soul will never be caged. The soul lives, and as there is beginning and end in everything, so to, will come our end eventually…and when that time comes is when we look back and discover, what did we do and accomplish, and I don’t believe it will have anything to do with how many properties one owns, or how many cars…or trendy cloths…but eventually the soul will flourish and realize the importance of love. Not physical love…but something much deeper. The pull of positive energy is there as well as the negative, but yes, I believe the positive will ultimately win…it is the God source…the positive energy. And yes, at face value one might look at many situations in the world and wonder if positive is winning….we should wake up and take a look. We’re walking around asleep, and desensitized to what is reality and what is fiction. (Brainwashed) As far as choice…again, whatever you believe it to be…but if we would turn this whole thing around and turn away from negativity, and not fear standing up and saying this is WRONG and unacceptable commercialism, behavior, etc…virtue might begin to solidify into our modern concepts…. I think, we use a very small part of our brains…and we should and could be much further along. Our reality is whatever they (that in control) want us to believe. In my opinion, another option of free will would be this…i.e. If everyone could drop their political party without feeling like they were defying their parents…forget about democrats and republicans and vote for the man, not the party? I also believe we should have two or three other parties which would force more honest decisions…and less childish bashings of a person’s character. The problems facing our world are not so difficult…but we’ve become a divided world of people who actually believe we can dictate what another should believe…and believe it or not, most of it comes from religion, our parents, television and our government. Whenever your government becomes immoral and corrupt, so to will its people. And what better way to control others then by fear…propaganda…we’re all guilty, we’re all members of one body, no matter the color of your skin, race or religion, we all bleed the same. There is a lot of good, and a lot of wonderful people in this world…and what I fear is…loosing them and their beliefs and any connection to divinity while human. I hope I’ve cleared things a little, and not offended anyone, I tend to be a very passionate talker about these subjects and it’s not always a good thing…smile As I mean no insult to anyone…nor am I writing or talking to anyone directly by saying “you”. When I should type we…it is we in my mind, but I forget, others cannot read my mind…smiles. I’ve been struggling with a lot of issues lately…so, please believe and understand when I say, what I write, is definitely not written in stone, as I have a lot to learn and would welcome anyone’s ides When we act out our everyday schedules, we’re doing what “they” have told us we should do…becoming so wrapped up in material gain…forgetting about what we’re really supposed to be doing…and they have us right where they want us. Free Will of the physical can be and might be someday taken away, but the hope is, that the free will of the spirit can never be broken. That is what I believe? Thank you Lee J. |
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Arnold M Member
since 2004-09-05
Posts 195 |
Kaoru, I apologize for misspelling your name. Earlier I suggested reading the book of Romans. But on second thought I believe the gospel of John in the NT would be better. Arnold |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
God’s Sadness (God Speaks) I see you coming and going upon the trembling of the Earth as in the world’s first days, but great is the difference, my work is no longer within me. I have given it entirely to you. Men, my beloved, I am powerless in your misfortunes, I could give you only tears and your courage, which are the warm evidence of God’s existence. The moisture in your soul is what you have left of me. I could do no more. I could do nothing for the mother whose son is going to die except give light to you, candles of hope. If it were not so, would you know, you undefended little beds, the paralysis of children. I am cut off from my work, what is finished is far away and goes further still each day. When the brook runs down from the mountain can there be any going back? I can no more speak to you than a potter can speak to his pot, of the two one is deaf, the other dumb before his handiwork and I see you advancing towards blinding precipices and cannot even identify them for you, and I cannot hint to you how you should set about them, you must get yourself out of trouble alone like orphans in the snow. And I tell myself each day beyond a vast silence: ‘There’s another doing wrong what he could do right, another stumbling by not looking where he should, and here’s another leaning much too far over his balcony, forgetting gravity, and that one who hasn’t checked his engine, farewell aeroplane, farewell man!’ I can do no more for you, alas if I repeat myself it is through enduring it. I am a memory descending, you are living in a memory, the hope that climbs your hillsides, you are living in expectation. Shaken by the prayers and the blasphemies of men, I am everywhere at once and cannot show myself, without moving I move about and pass from heaven to heaven, I am the wanderer within myself and the inwardly teeming hermit, familiar with distances, I am very distant from myself, I stray deep within myself like a child in the woods, I call myself, I haul myself in and draw myself towards my centre. Man, if I created you it was to see it more clearly and to live in a body, I who have neither hands nor face. I want to thank you for doing earnestly all that will have only a brief time on the beloved earth. O my child, my precious one, O courage given by your God, my son, you have gone roaming the world in my place ahead of me in your so vulnerable body with its great poverty. Not a small parcel of skin where deep decay may not form. Each of you knows how to be a dead man without the need to learn, a perfect corpse that can be rolled and rolled again in all directions, in which no fault can be found. God outlives you, he alone survives in the midst of great massacre of men, women, and children, even alive you are constantly dying a little, make your peace with life, with your trembling loves. You have a brain, fingers to fashion the world to your taste, you have talents to give life to reason and madness within your shell, you have all the animals that form Creation, you can run and swim like the dog and the fish, move forward like the tiger or the week-old lamb, you can bring death to yourself like the reindeer, the scorpion, yet I remain the invisible one, undiscoverable on the Earth, have pity on your God who could not make you happy, small fragments of myself, O throbbing sparks, I offer you only a furnace where you will find fire once again. Jules Supervielle |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Listen, Will You Learn to Hear Me from Afar? Listen, will you learn to hear me from afar? It's a question of inclining the heart more than the ear. You'll find bridges in yourself and roads To reach all the way to me who waits and stares. What does it matter, the Atlantic's width. The fields, woods, mountains between us two? One by one they'll have to give up on that day You turn your eyes this way. -Jules Supervielle- The Convert After one moment when I bowed my head And the whole world turned over and came upright, And I came out where the old road shone white, I walked the ways and heard what all men said, Forests of tongues, like autumn leaves unshed, Being not unlovable but strange and light; Old riddles and new creeds, not in despite But softly, as men smile about the dead. The sages have a hundred maps to give That trace their crawling cosmos like a tree, They rattle reason out through many a sieve That stores the sand and lets the gold go free: And all these things are less than dust to me Because my name is Lazarus and I live. -G.K. Chesterton- |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Free Will: slavery with many choices to make! What man may choose what is need? He only has some choice about how to serve what is fallen in Nature as need. The less we serve need enough, the more we need and have less choice. Some are in need of blood, and some have it to donate. Those that don't need the blood have choice; those that need the blood have no choice but to need. Thus, need is not a choice. But how we serve and give to need is. [This message has been edited by Essorant (10-17-2004 05:19 PM).] |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Essorant, I applaud you....BRAVO What you wrote is absolute truth and right from the heart of a spiritual beat. Thank you! |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Sorry, but need, too, is always a choice. How many in the industrialized world claim they "need" a car in order to work? What they are really saying, of course, is that they find the alternative unacceptable. Their need is fueled by a strong desire to avoid what might be several hours a day either walking or riding public transportation. Or finding a new job. Or perhaps not working at all. Not liking your choices doesn't eliminate their existence. There is no need that doesn't offer a corresponding choice, and most of what we consider to be a need offers many such choices. In some few instances, the only alternative is death, but that too is still a choice. It's just not one we like to consider. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
No, a car is not a need, it is a hastemaker. A car comes from the oppression of society for haste. Society oppresses it for haste with cars, so we are car-oppressed, and full of a haste that influences our whole lives. No life needs as much haste as we make in most places. A thousand percent is greed, 10% is need. I believe in using cars (and buses and taxies) for aids across long distances and thro bad weathers and as emergency, or assistance vehicles. But society does not use them in such manner, more as helpers to going some where. Society uses them them as more servers to greed and excessive haste. It makes them the centeral of going somewhere. Driving is like sitting in front of a videogame, where actual danger is present. All the same kind of bad influences that may come from a video game work upon drivers that drive too much. Cars and driving become an addicition like drug: people become excessive and buy far more cars than they "need" Such excessiveness makes them greedy for money to serve their car-fancying and driving; driving often makes almost anyone become severly impatient and impatience then becomes lived in many other things he/she does as well; it makes one less regardful to slower "modes" and more natural landscapes (opposed to streetland), and makes one feel mode-dependent upon machine and haste. Too Many injuries and deaths come with cars, too many crimes, junkyards, clutter and dirtiness, money-greed and vice, and idleness. The condition cars are in today, makes cars one of the worst conditions of life. And almost every humbler mode now seems much wiser and safer and more toward need. Horses are far more civilized. At least they are able to feel and sense. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
"There is no need that doesn't offer a corresponding choice, and most of what we consider to be a need offers many such choices. In some few instances, the only alternative is death, but that too is still a choice. It's just not one we like to consider." Yes, a need offers a choice, but only because it has some flexibility. We don't choose what the need is though. We choose how to serve within an extent. Some men seek the extremes of the extent, some men seek a middle and moderation point. Those that put to the extremes shall be made to need more and have less choice. Those that put to the middle and moderation need less and find there are more choices and health. That is because moderation is most agreeable in all things. It is the mother of all virtues. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: For you, perhaps, Essorant. But that, too, is a choice. For me, the opposite of moderation has proven a more fulfilling course. The opposite of moderation, at least in many things, has provided a life rather than existence, purpose rather than indifference, memories rather than emptiness. The opposite of moderation, Ess, at least for some of us, is still worth pursuing. Besides, who would ever want to visit a place called Moderation in Poetry? |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Ron and Ess, Actually I think you're both wrong, and both right. It's not either moderation or extravagance. It's both moderation and extravagance, whenever each is called for. Foolishness often results from mistaking the need for one for the need of the other. As Solomon said "There is a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing". The attractive, witty woman at work may require some moderation for a married man. While the beautiful intelligent wife at home may require some exercise in extravagance, for that same man. See what I mean? Oh and Ron, is "Moderator" an unfortunate misnomer for you? Stephen. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Moderation doesn't ask for too much. It simply says "do no extremes" I think one may find more healthy in moderation, and thereby have more room that even to indulge here and there. If one chooses extreme that shall become a pit of narrowed need, where soon ill health does not afford such flexibilities, and flexibilities such choices, and room ever to indulge pleasures and cheer. Extremes take everything to too much, where too much offers less. Moderation takes things to where less is actually much more. [This message has been edited by Essorant (10-18-2004 07:52 PM).] |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Man's will is granted three kinds of choices: 1) Better 2) Worse 3) Worst Animals, however, are granted only one kind of choice: 1) Best |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
i suppose what it comes down to is the individuals image of what happiness is to them. How we serve happiness, is how we're served back? Yes? |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: If you "serve" happiness, can you then become a slave to it? It seems to me that often life presents us with choices that are meant to take us beyond the concern for personal "happiness" ... sometimes even into painful circumstances. It's just that I think happiness can be a shallow concept, because it's not deep enough. For the question arises "What IS happiness?" Comfort? Prosperity? absence of conflict? If we get the question wrong, then we're not as happy as we thought we were. Can joy ever be missed by settling for the common conception of happiness? I'm not promoting being a masochist, and seeking the painful paths. Just trying to bring another point of view in. This ties in to another thread where Ron and I were discussing, wrong choices ... even "evil" choices. They're usually done under some individual perception of personal "happiness". Stephen. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Stephen... I'm happy and elated when I see a couple holding hands, smiling and telling me the years they've been married...and they're acting like newly weds...if even in that moment...but their happiness, pleases me. I'm happy when someone on PIP announces their success...or when a baby is being born, or a wedding is taking place...or a child takes his/her first steps. I'm extatic when I see people forgive one another after a long hard dissagreement, it brings tears of joy to my eyes Or when I'm traveling down the road to a destination unknown, just get in the car and drive...and very extatic when I've arrived at a vacation destination...or when taking care of my grand-daughter, I can still see her laughing so hard that both of us couldn't get a breath. I'm happy to rememeber a love I once experienced, it was amazing, yes, it went sour, but there were good memories as well, many I was able to build on, which changed my life... I'm happy when my mom smiles after she's told me a sad story about a friend who has passed...but she realizes this is part of life I'm so overwhelmed by nature...and the wonder and power of it's ability to do what it does...the beauty in storms...the peace in the rising sun...and sunsets.... I'm happy to hear a friends voice on the other end of the phone line...and to share thoughts, and maybe even learn a thing or two during our conversation, or to attend a picnic...a family gathering, holidays with my family or traveling... I'm happy in the spring, gathering all my herbs...planting...attending summer festivales...swimming...reading a book by the a river...or just creating a poem. I'm happy to see the happiness in someone elses words...and rejoice at their abilities, and am in awe at their talents... I believe we are a society that looks for negativity and thrives on it...forgetting that all good things are there for us to welcome, if we choose. We as a society are actually afraid to be happy...we have to look for approval from others???? Happiness is how you see yourself...how you see others...welcome and encourage others to prosper...happiness is love...concern and care for others more then ourselves...and has nothing to do with the material. Happiness is walking away from a really feel good movie....and feeling good... or walking on the beach, riding a horse...taking the time to listen to and older person, petting a dog...playing with the kids...turning of the TV and listening to the quiet...happiness is meditation...a Dairy Queen ice cream...putting together a dinner party...giving and sending gifts...writing a little note and placing it in your honey's car or lunch...listening to the sounds of a colt suckling on its mother for the first time Happiness is taking responsiblity for others, and allowing them room, encouraging them to pursue their dreams... Happiness is seeing people come together during the time of 911...wishing we would all work together like that, year round... Happiness is all in how you look at things...how your receive happiness, what your priorities are...happiness is hugging someone who is crying...or in need, perhaps making dinners for those who are sick...and cannot cook for themselves, checking in on a neighbor who is ill, shoveling their sidewalk when they cannot, calling someone who has lost a loved one, to let them know you care...dropping everything and going to their aid...giving when sometimes its hard to give, and letting go, when it benefits everyone concerned....happiness cannot be measured or bought...things make you happy for moments, but teach us to forget to give of ourselves...to seek happiness in helping others and learning from them...happiness is knowing...that we're doing the best we can...and realizing our purpose here for the time we have...cuz in the end...when it comes down to our last breath...it won't matter what we own, what will matter, is what we gave...in humbleness and faith...without expectaion? Thats my world???? |
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rad802 Member
since 2008-04-19
Posts 279KY U.S.A. |
FREE WILL It depends on whether you are within the time domain. If you are outside of the time domain it looks like predestination. 2 quotes on free will: The mystical side of modern physics states that for free will to truly exist there must be an infinite number of parallel universes. Delmonico 1/2/2011 In this journey of life we have been set upon, every choice becomes a fork in the road. The destination of the branches in front of us are real but all the other branches behind us are imagined. Delmonico (10-30-10) |
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OwlSA Member Rara Avis
since 2005-11-07
Posts 9347Durban, South Africa |
The way I see it is that it is very simple. We have free will, but sometimes for better or worse, some people choose not to exercise it in the conventional sense. They allow other influences, suggestion, instructions, rules, laws, or tyrants to dictate to them. However, that was free will to allow those things to dictate to them. I would have liked to have read all the responses but chose not to, as I don't have much free time. However, I could have ignored that rationality and chosen to. This could be interpreted by some that I allowed my circumstances to dictate to me and thus didn't have free will. However, my own interpretation is that I chose not to and I exercised free will in choosing not to. I take the responsibility of that choice upon myself. I accept the repercussions (such as possibly being told, "All this has been said before and has been discounted" - or "it has been mentioned already and has been accepted"). Owl |
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HopelessRomantic101 Junior Member
since 2011-02-09
Posts 10Georgia, United States of America |
The question of free will is moot. I will, however, give my opinion on the matter. We, as humans, do not have complete free will, as our decisions are influenced by teachers, parents, peers, and younglings. There will always be some outside choice pressuring us to do this or that, but the choice is ultimately ours. There, the Free Will takes on its manifestation, yet society always expects something from us, thereby binding our wills. |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
We have free will. We have the choice to separate ourselves from god spiritually. We may not be able to control addictions and bad habbits, but we choose our closeness to god. I know I have pondered this, and I expect that I will never fully understand. But I know that god wants us to love him and be humble. Adam and Eve chose to disobey him and worship themselves instead of god. -Juju |
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