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A Friends Philosophy

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UniqueFreak
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since 01-09-2004
Posts 63
Scotland


0 posted 08-24-2004 06:50 PM       View Profile for UniqueFreak   Email UniqueFreak   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for UniqueFreak

i had a very interesting converstation with my best friend in the world the other day, over a few drinks in the local pub (thats our usual place of discussion! lol)

Anyways, we were talking about relationships, or to be more exact, sexual relations. Now we both have VERY different views and attitudes towards that kinda stuff. Im HUGE on contraception and about taking care of myself etc, but she is very...how could i put it...Blasť  about the whole issue of sex.

Basically she said that she believes in fate, and that every single thing, bad or good that happens to her, is for a reason and was always meant to happen.

Therefore she doesnt use conrtraception AT ALL, of NO KIND. Now she is only 18, and the number of partners she has had cant be counted on both hands, toes are needed! And not once has she used protection. Perplexed by this i questioned her motives for such...ignorant behaviour, and she puts it all down to fate. She believes that if she gets pregnant, she knows it will effect her badly, but then something good will come of it since she will have to go through difficulty. Although she doesnt want to get pregnant, she wont use contraception. very confusing.

But i think of this - if she is puting herself in the position where something could happen to her which she rather wouldnt, isnt that her choosing something, an action, a direction in her life?? she is CHOOSING to not use protection. there isnt some huge sign or force telling her not to. she is making a rational (or more probable unrational) desicion. so by choosing to put herself in that position, she is undermining 'fate' it seems?? She could argue then that she could wake up 2moro and get hit my a bus and thats fate, thats what was supposed to happen to her...but then she isnt going to stand in the middle of the road and ask for it to happen is she?? Thats just what shes doing by not using protection - shes tempting fate.

basically what im trying to say is, to me, she is using fate as a get outta jail free card. I dont think she believes herself in the power of fate. And i think this might be the case with alot of people. People who are afraid to take control of thier lives. Is fate a mere excuse for people sometimes? is it a crutch that helps them feel better about how thier lives turn out? is it just a wishful thought that displaces blame or fault in bad situations? do people rely on it, when really, they dont even believe in it 100%?
Midnitesun
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since 05-18-2001
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Gaia


1 posted 08-24-2004 09:22 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Well, it sounds as if she hasn't any concept of personal responsibility. It annoys the heck out of me when someone throws caution to the winds like that and then blames/accepts the consequences on 'fate.' She is designing her own version of fate.
Also, she is being totally irresponsible towards all the other people she is having relations with, and hopefully, you won't have to watch her or any of these other people suffer if/when they come down with a communicable disease.
Don't make excuses for her.
Ron
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Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


2 posted 08-25-2004 01:04 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
She could argue then that she could wake up 2moro and get hit my a bus and thats fate, thats what was supposed to happen to her...

When she walks outside her door each day, it should be with the understanding that she might get hit by a bus. If she wants to make absolutely sure she doesn't get hit by that bus, she shouldn't walk outside the door.

Everything is a choice.

As long as cause and effect hold sway in this universe, every single thing that happens to us in life can be traced to a decision made (or not made) in our past. There is no such thing as bad luck, just unforeseen consequences. And until we accept full and unconditional responsibility for our lives, we have no hope of ever controlling it.
hush
Senior Member
since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


3 posted 08-25-2004 06:51 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

"And until we accept full and unconditional responsibility for our lives, we have no hope of ever controlling it."

Can we ever really control our lives? Forseeing some potential consequences is one thing, but forseeing all is impossible unless we're psychic.

I mean, technically, the bus could come plowing into the side of her house. Or a plane engine could plummet into her bedroom. (Ever seen Donnie Darko?)

So a potential consequence of staying home is still getting hit by a bus. Nobody knows if a bus driver is going to snooze behind the wheel today, and where.

Obviously, the correlation of this example to the situation here is rape.

But even though many women are sexually assaulted, few of us get to the number where we'd need toes to count. I mean, you're exactly right about her increasing her chances and -phew- 18 is young for that.

Now, I'm of the opinion that if it tweaks your melon to sleep around, go for it... but you damn well better be honest about your number of partners and whether or not you're using any birth control. She's not just affecting herself... becoming a parent unwillingly or contracting an STD is devastating to anyone.

BUT that is also a man's responsibility. If he doesn't want a kid or some unsightly sores, he better apply the 'no glove, no love' policy. If she lies, that's responsibility and wrong on her part, but for a guy to take her on that is every bit as stupid for a woman to belive he'll pull out in time... especially if this is a fling.

But, back to my point- both partners are tempting "fate"... and while it's perfectly their option to do that in a way that doesn't demostrably affect others (even playing in traffic poses potential property and emotional damage to drivers) both partners in unprotected sex are risking the other, and any potential son or daughter. Unless they are willing to make a comittment to care for a kid, they're both in the wrong.
SEA
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with you


4 posted 08-25-2004 09:21 PM       View Profile for SEA   Email SEA   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for SEA

I really don't mean to come across rude, but at 18 if that is her thought process on something that important, she is too young to be having sex in the first place. It has nothing to do with fate. It's ignorance.
Sunshine
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Member Caelestus
since 06-25-99
Posts 67715
Listening to every heart


5 posted 08-25-2004 09:40 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Apparently she said enough to pull your chain where you are more worried about her than about whatever it is you decide to do in the next ten minutes or so.  She has manipulated you into worrying for her, so she doesn't have to.

Call her on it.  Like Kacy said, don't be making excuses for her.

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


6 posted 08-25-2004 09:42 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

In most cases Sea it would be a self esteem problem.  The behaviour does two things -- it grants temporary approval (from the men she's having sex with) and the self destructive Russian Roulette factor helps her reinforce her own low opinion of herself. It becomes a vicious cycle of pain relief and self abuse.

It would be impossible to say that this applies specifically to her, but the information in the originating post seems to indicate that it is likely.

It has little to do with intellect or knowledge.

Friends don't let friends drive drunk.
SEA
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7 posted 08-25-2004 11:00 PM       View Profile for SEA   Email SEA   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for SEA

LR,
I do agree it is a low self esteem (more than likely) that is driving her behavior. I do not think that is enough of a reason to have unprotected sex, and say that it is fate. There is more than enough information out there in this day and age for her to know better. They teach this stuff in school. I do think it has everything to do with her maturity level and her intellect. But hey, that is just my thoughts on it....

UniqueFreak
Member
since 01-09-2004
Posts 63
Scotland


8 posted 08-26-2004 07:30 AM       View Profile for UniqueFreak   Email UniqueFreak   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for UniqueFreak

ive always said its a matter of self respect and a seeking for approval or acceptance. When in high school we both were picked on quite a bit, and since then we have both changed alot and from that we both have chosen different paths on how to act on it. Im not meaning to sound boastful or big headed in any way but im at university, i take NOTHING to do with anyone from high school and i never put myself in a position where the people who picked on me have the chance to do it again. But since she left highschool she has changed alot in appearance, she is EXTREMELY beautiful and has the guys falling at her feet - the same guys who picked on her at high school. And she loves this, and its those kinda people she sleeps with. Its definately her way of telling herself that she is accepted now. I try to tell her that she shouldnt even pay attention to them, she wasnt good enough for them 3 years ago so why should she give herself up to them today??

Its all to do with her gettin people to admire her in some way, even if its only for that one night.

but what confuses me is, by allowing herself to do this - one night stands etc, isnt she further disrespecting herself much worse than anyone at high school ever did? She is giving herself to the same people who made her life hell. she is being used. but she LOVES it. She feels that it was FATE that made her 'an ugly child' and so FATE decided she should get picked on, and because of that she became beautiful, and now its FATE that she gets to sleep around, so far without consequences.

i think that 'fate' has a nasty suprise up its sleeve soon if she doesnt recognise that what shes doing is not only harming her health but, her self respect and dignity.

I sought approval in my academics and achievements, i'm now so over high school and im gonna be a journalist in a couple years, when people who picked on me read my stuff in newspapers, thats all I need. I dont need them to like it or love it or even care about it, but it will show that i have moved on, and that thier actions didnt constrict me in any way. Thats enough.

She thinks she is controlling her life by allowing men to sleep with her, but really, they are still conrtolling her, and by putting everything down to fate, isnt she contradicting herself??  - an excuse for a lost lost soul if you ask me.
Stephanos
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Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


9 posted 08-27-2004 10:17 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
Basically she said that she believes in fate, and that every single thing, bad or good that happens to her, is for a reason and was always meant to happen.

Therefore she doesnt use conrtraception AT ALL, of NO KIND. Now she is only 18, and the number of partners she has had cant be counted on both hands, toes are needed! And not once has she used protection. Perplexed by this i questioned her motives for such...ignorant behaviour, and she puts it all down to fate.


Your friend seems to be more of the mystic, while you're the pragmatist?  However there's something for her to think about ...  Even the ancients who believed in "fate" as a mysterious force, did not view it so deterministically.  In revolt of fatalism they perpetually tried to appease the gods.  There was sacrifice and other behavioral restraits to cooperate with fate, and if possible befriend it, even if the friend was shrouded in mystery.  If she's going to believe in fate, I think it would be good for her to ask herself, "what IS fate anyway ... What is it's metaphysical nature?"  If she's going to be the mystic, then where has the most mystical thing of all, choice, got off to?  Is fate kinder to some and only cruel to others?  Why?  Does fate rule with the Iron scepter of arbitrary destiny, or is made of greener wood, indicating something more compatible with human life and vitality?  For though I believe that the ancients didn't have it right in their self manufactured pantheon of idols, I think the perception of relational and personal necessity behind the cosmos was on the right track.


Of course, I would also tell you that I think an extreme pragmatism that shuns the "mystical" side has it's own danger of extremes.  Yes I believe in choice, action, and prophyllactic control.  But there IS an element of this life which is beyond our control.  There's a difference between presumption and confidence.  Does contraception and Birth control really eliminate the dangers of sex outside of committed monogamous marriage?  It might reduce the physical dangers of STD's, but it doesn't eliminate them.  So that risk is still present.  Also, the idea that moral judgements should be made on the basis of personal benefit weighed against risk, is problematic.  That kind of thinking is what has lead to abortion on demand, among other things.  It's the "ends justifies the means" myth.  The fault of that is not that it isn't absolutely true (it is), but that we cannot know by natural means what "ends" are in their totality.  We are so complex and dependent, in our spiritual/ psychological/ physical makeup.  And much modernity tells us that the spirit/ character/ soulish aspect is a myth that former generations held because they didn't know any better.  But do we really know any better?  I think the most striking evidence for this is the fact that all the while the contemporaries tell us we have no soul, we get the sneaking uneasy feeling they're right.  But the malaise doesn't come from realizing that we never had souls, but from the dim awareness that somewhere, somehow, we've lost them.  


I think the best approach to your friend would be to present the dual advice of considering pragmatic self-care (which you mentioned), but also to give thought of the deeper question of whether sexual promiscuity is wrong for something more than the physcial risk ... even for something more than  psychological risk.  The whole question of morality / spirituality is very applicable I think.


Stephen.    

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (08-27-2004 11:10 PM).]

 
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